Kitsune9tails

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I am anti-farming in general, its clear to me that it hurts the game in the long run if allowed to run unchecked to some degree.

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What exactly is meant by this ? I definitely maybe understand it.

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I am not antifarming, per se.

I do beleive games should be designed to reduce the effects that farming has on an MMO.

Some people love farming and can farm all day without burning out and hating the game. I have no proof, but I beleive these people to be a minority.

Most people who farm, farm to get shinies faster, not because they enjoy the activity themselves. They find themselves repating an unpleasant activity over and over because, in the words of many farmers on these boards, "I have to in order to get x."

What I beleive they really mean (since there is nothing in this game that requires farming to get) "I have to in order to get x as fast as the farmers do." After all, it's one thing to know you'll get to 50 some day. But when your little brother gets to 50 in ONE day, you're going to want to know how he did it, and you are probably going to want to do it yourself. And if the way to get 50 that fast is not fun, you just shortened your life expectancy in this game.

That's bad for the game.

The Devs don't hate farming because of the effect on farmers; they hate it because of the effect it has on non-farmers who want to emulate the farmers and burn themselves out in the process.

Here is another example from this very game:

A guy joined this game during 'meow wars'. HThe friend who recruited him saw him gain over 20 levels in 3 hours. He then asked Guy if he was having fun.

Guy replied that the game was boring because the enemies were too easy.

They then took Guy into some tough missions, and had some rollicking skin-of-your-teeth encounters. Afterward, they asked Guy if he was having fun NOW.

Nope: the xp was too slow.

THAT is exactly the nightmare scenario of every MMO Dev everywhere. A player who CANNOT enjoy your game because of farming. THAT is what the Devs want to prevent.

Therefore, Farming, like every other form of min/maxing in any MMO, shoud give a small enough advantage that it is not devastatingly destructive to 'normal speed' content.

The Devs simply cannot create new content faster than players can consume it. The MA can, but only if it does not also make things worse itself, by accellerating those players to the speed of plaid.

The facts (that is, my opinion) are these: Delibertately choosing to abuse just about anything is always unethical.

If you honestly don't know that (for example) going from 1-50 in 8 hours is abuse, no problem.

If, on the other hand, you suspect that it might be wrong, it behooves you to back off or PM the Devs or something.

If you decide you don't care, that's unethical on it's face.

But I agree: 'unethical' and 'abuse' are usually very subjective words to define.

No contest that it almost never happens. Does not change the fact (that is to say, my opinion) that it is unethical to abuse anything you have been given.

Also does not make sense to me that someone will abuse something and then complain when someone in authority takes it away and says, "Sorry, going to have to fix this to be more durable before you break it."

I think it was a case of insufficient testing due to the fact that the changes were rushed to curtail abuse as soon as possible.

As it was, the Devs were criticized for taking over a week to address the issue after it went Live.

It would make sense to do so, since their current engine is licensed from the competition, and could theoretically be yanked/denied at some point.

I don't contest that abusing the MA was tempting.

I just don't agree with the idea that choosing to succumb to temptation absolves one of the consequences. The Dev's mistake does not negate anyone else's.

My take on legality:

Do the devs have the legal right and will to remove levels from characters?

The Devs have the legal right to remove levels from your character in the same way that they have the right to generic your characters or server ban you without right of appeal.

The players have the legal right to make whatever content they want in the MA.

The Devs have the legal right to lock those MA slots.

Ethically:

The players have a responsibility not to even ATTEMPT to abuse the system.

The Devs have a responsibility to attempt to make the system as bulletproof as is practical.

The Devs made a call to allow elements in the system that they knew were abusable, rather than delay release. That was a screwup; but I don't expect the devs to say,"We apologize for over estimating the honesty of the players."

Now that the milk has been spilled, the Devs are going to try to shore the code up more, but they also chose to reiterate to the players that they are going to be enforcing the rules.

That was nothing other than being nice; other MMOs have had mass bannings for less (or so I hear).

I would like the Devs to define 'abuse' in terms of earnings/time. I do not beleive that is how the devs currently define it, and I beleive they don't because they would have to restructure the game around it.

If they chose to, however I still would not expect them to say so until after they had code written to enforce it.

So: are you SURE you want them to define 'abuse'?

Not a fallacy; just missing the point, and insulting to many dogs and young girls. I happen to know dogs and young girls with more self control than was described.

Whether or not the Devs screwed up, some players screwed up. I'm sure there were some innocents that did not know they were crossing a line, and I'm sure there were also players who didn't care. Since their cash depends on it, I'm sure they will make every effort to seperate the wheat from the chaff.

Also, per Posi, no one is being punished, but some players are having the levels they got super fast get taken away.

That's not punishment, that's just a case of 'easy come, easy go'.

If you get your 50 levels that you got in 8 hours taken away, feel free to explain to Customer Service how there is no way you could have known you were exploiting, and maybe they will let you off the hook.

However, it is indeed possible that the Devs made mistakes:
- Maybe they shouldn't have given us the MA.
- Maybe they should have prenerfed it more before handing it to us.
- Maybe they should not have given us a warning before removing levels from the worst of the worst abusers.

But at least they are modifying their behavior in the wake of what happened. I hope the dogs and 16 year old girls who play this game will do the same.

No offense.

I'm sure the Devs are datamining and trying to figure out what to do, like always.

Hopefully, it's just a matter of scaling down the damage or recharge of these attacks. Hopefully, there is a happy medium where minion attacks are strong enough to challenge kiting Blasters without overwhelming them.

The funny tthing to me is, I don't think that most of the guys that are arguing that the Devs should define what an exploit is really want to win that battle.

The devs could define it in terms of rewards/time very easily, and ENFORCE it. They don't realize that the Devs are being NICE.

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Maybe it's just me, but those two observations seem to have a significant incompatability going on.

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Yeah, I see that now. But I just can't see how to get CoX players who are new to PvP to team without forcing it. From my own experience and the observed experiences of others, someone who is thinking, "Maybe I'll try out PvP for the first time" usually does not go to a PvE zone and spam in broadcast "starting RV PvP team, pst".

They zone into RV solo, bounce around at random for a while (often with Stealth on while wondering why the don'tr see anyone around). After awhile, they see someone superleap past, and they follow that guy to where he is watching a battle take place. While they are standing around trying to figure out whether they should attack, they suddenly respawn in the hospital with no idea what just happened.

Rinse, repeat.

After a bit, they either try to talk to some of the locals. This can go well or VERY, VERY badly, but the upshot is that they either come out of it feeling like PvP is something they can do, or that it's just not for them: back to PvP.

If they had to form a team to try PvP in the first place, and if doing so did not interrupt their usual PvE play overly, they would have a better chance of a better first experience. At least then, when their Defender got AS'ed by a Stlker, the rest of the team could at least try to give chase (granted, into a nest of trip mines, but still).

I think the changes to PvP did attract people; they just also drove people away.

I think they Devs have been reacting code-wise to the type of gameplay that exists, not just the type that SHOULD exist. To keep n00bs from being driven away by ganking, they weakened teaming and made soloists stronger in the hope of getting more people who try pVp to stick around.

I wonder if some kind of 'forced teaming' code would have been better?

I think if people team more...a LOT more... then we would see a relaxation on DR, increased resistance and whatnot.

I13 had more freedom of movement and better buffing, but it had it's share of downsides, IIRC. There were a lot of people complaining about people not sticking around to fight, and other people complaining that that they felt forced into coordinated spiking and that the roles were too restrictive.

I'm not sure there's a way to please both camps, but it's something that should certainly be pursued.

If the Devs were to roll back the I13 changes tomorrow, there would be a short chorus of hallelujah, but then after that, we'd be back to the same complaints that brought the changes in the first place.

A lot of old schoolers would come back, but a lot of people who prefer the current style would leave. No harm in calling for what you want, but be sure it's a move forward, and not back to square one.

Thanks a lot! I'm glad you and your team had fun running the arc!

I will address those typoes as soon as I can; I'm currently wrestling with an issue where it won't let me republish while I have 3 arcs published. I can edit fine, but I would hve to unpublish an arc to be able to republish this one.

And those 'i before e' things always strike me as wired

Even if 90% of the content in the MA were crap, that would be over 2000 arcs that are NOT crap.

2000 arcs is probably more content than you can consume on one character (at half an hour per arc).

See the arc review threads in this very forum to find arcs and authors you may like. And if that doesn't work, make your own.

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Pretty much, they put up a sign in their produce market stating that although sampling is tolerated those that gorge themselves on the produce will be prosecuted as shoplifters.


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It's more in line with going to an all you can eat buffet, and being told you can eat as much as you want, but if you eat to much, you'll get thrown out.

Everyone here is paying for what they are getting.

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So close!

If you changed 'all you can eat buffet' to 'American Bar', I think we could see eye to eye.

You see, in American bars, they throw you out if you drink too much, even if you are paying for what you are getting. And 'too much' is not defined in terms of blood alcohol level or anything but the bartender's judgement.

In any case, I would also like the Devs to define what they consider an exploit is in more quantifiable terms, but in the meantime I feel I can play just fine and just as I always have without worrying about it.

Besides, gamebreakingly fast speed doesn't need to be an exploit to get nerfed. It has to be nerfed whether it is an exploit or not, by definition.

The I14 changes were intended to fix what I think is the basic issue with PvP: there aren't enough participants.

The changes collectively make PvP easier to get into by lowering the difference between upper tier performance and lower tier performance. Theoretically.

In order to do this, they sacrificed similarity between PvP and PvE builds and changed things so much they drove a bunch of old schoolers away. One step forward, one step back.

In order for PvP to improve, 2 things have to happen:

1) PvPers need to enjoy it enough to evangelize.

2) Borderline PvPers need to do the same.

You aren't going to recruit dedicated PvEers, and dedicated PvPers are either playing or have left.

PvP needs to provide a positive first experience for the hesitant, scared, clueless noob, or they will just go back to PvE. I think there have been too many instances (to hear tell on the boards) of PvPers being so antsy to get a fight (due to the low PvP population) that they end up driving people away from PvP.

The problem seems to be that the perception still is that stepping into a zone is like stepping onto an NFL football field, looking over at the entire Raiders lineup, and saying, "Come get some."

I think something like the I14 code changes needed to happen to create the perception that stepping into a zone is not purely asking to be humiliated. And the PvPEC has been trying to get people into PvP via the community, which is great and needed.

I think the Devs need to:

1) Sponsor and appear in more PvP events.
2) Code some kind of teaming mechanism similar to arena matches, so that you don't have as many PvP noobs wandering around zones with no one to fight, or getting ganked by uberteams.

Please be sure and let us know when it's up!

So what needs to happen to make the Zone minigames better? I would say instance them and make them team-required like Battlegrounds, but then they aren't Zone minigames.

Let's start with the Shivan Shards. Obviously, the Pets were made very powerful to motivate around the idea that you are fighting other players for them, but that isn't happening.

What would change this equation? Is the zone just too big?

What makes, say, Capture the Flag more fascinating than battlling big green Rad Monsters and other players over super-pets?

City of... still has the most fun PvP of any game I have ever played.

That said, there seem to be some specific problems that the I14 changes targeted, whether they were successful or not.

Casual vs Hardcore
Many people fear PvP because of some combination of hating being defeated in the first place, dreading a learning curve with no forseeable benefits, being griefed or trash talked. But a lot of these fears boil down to not feeling like they have a chance to win, because they beleive they will be facing foes that are better equipped and skilled. And, they are right.

I propose a reputation-based, rather than level-based system that prevents the uber from beating up on peons for long. Each kill gets you points: get enough points and you graduate up a tier; you are unable to fight people below your tier. When you look at people, they would 'con' as per their tier: greys are too low, purples are too high.

My hope is that would increase entry into PvP, because you could ensure that people could fight people near their skill.

ganking
I propose a tool that allows you to join a PvP team in a manner similar to joining an arena match. When you click to enter a pvp zone, you are asked if you want to solo or team. If you choose to team, you are asked if you want a timer or team size. You can choose a team from a list of teams that are currently forming (your team is given a team name like with a TF).

If you choose timer, your team is teleported from wherever they are into the zone entry are when the timer runs out. If you choose team size, everyone is teleported when the team reaches the proper size.

This would help people find teams, and feel like they can enter the zone gank free. Of course, it's up to the players to stick together after that, of course.

Toe to Toe vs Run and Gun
This I have no clue about. Some people love combat with full speed, but that tends toward combat where people don't stick around to fight, which gets complained about.

Other people prefer it to be tougher to escape so that fights actually happen. I don't see any way to reconcile these two groups: it's just a preference polarization, like the people who think that porting people into drones is fair play vs those who think it is the depth of greifing.

My only thought would be to have at least one suppression-free zone, but that opens up a big can of worms, With DR and enhanced resistance for everyone, a lack of suppression may mean that no one can defeat anyone.

Just some thoughts.

Good luck, Misho, and have fun! Feel free to try any of the ones in my sig, but here I will present the latest for your perusal...

Arc Name: Kiss Hello Goodbye

Arc ID: 156389

Faction: Neutral (But tends toward the heroic)

Creator Global/Forum Name: Kitsune9tails

Difficulty Level: Tested with a soloing L25 Inv/Fire Tanker primarily

Synopsis: Kiss your usual inner monologue goodbye! This mission is narrated by the whiskey-and-cigarette kissed voice of Film Noir and hard boiled detective stories. When a beautiful dame with a missing sister rolled into your City, the nights got hot and the action got wild! Can you figure out the mystery before the end? Can you save yourself from a terrible trap? If not, Kiss Hello Goodbye!

Estimated Time to Play: 1 hour (more if you clear all)

This should be soloable by most skilled players if they are careful and pick their battles.

Ah, okay, clear enough this time.

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#156389: Kiss Hello Goodbye (4 stars, could easily be 5 with some polish)


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Thanks a lot!

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There are numerous twists and turns to the plot (all done well), and a genuinely sad ending (which is both in keeping with the theme, and a good sign: it means I actually cared about the characters).


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Glad that came off for you! Yay!

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I wasn’t totally clear on the relationship between Dame Best and Dame Eden Lake (were they the same, and if they were, then why was Ligea – sorry I’m probably misspelling her name – “Ligea Best” instead of “Ligea Lake”?) It just confused me a little.


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One is an alias, the other is her real name.

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A very minor nitpick: you might want to rename Slick Willie to something a bit less politically charged.

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You aren't the first to say that; I'll consider it.

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e.g. “Pro Payne .” or “Pro Payne ,” instead of “Pro Payne.” Or “Pro Payne

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Oops!

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I believe it’s in mission 4, but in the mission where you fight Old Fossil (as opposed to him being an ally), OF’s description still made it sound like he was on your side.


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I'll check on that as soon as I get a chance.

Thanks again for your review, and I'm glad you liked it. I will republish as soon as I can: it doesn't seem to want to let me republish while I have 3 missions up for some reason. It will let me edit and save, but it wants me to unpublish an old mission rather than republish.

Or standard critters should give less. Either works

Are you saying there was a nerf on individual critter rewards? If so, I'm not aware of it. A warehouse mission should give as much out as it did before, unless it was giving out more than 1500 before.

?? the ticket cap and increased mob dificulty should have no effect on you getting 300 tickets per mission, if you finished the mission and cleared all. The mission cap is 1500 tickets.

Sure, you can populate the MA with standard critters, and many do.

I'm just saying that a mission in the MA populated with standard critters is faster xp than one with custom critters.

I am postulating that such missions might even be faster than the Devs want them to be, which might be one of the reasons that the MA was held back until custom critter creation was available.

Of course, even with custom critters available, the Devs still allow faster xp regular critters in the MA; I am just speculating that they might have also considered NOT doing so to keep risk/reward where they wanted it (and if they had been able to work out some of the issues with critter powersets and animations prior to launch).

I bet some Dev was looking at the meow farms and going, "Told you."

If you are saying that travel time was not a consideration in the design of the MA system, then let's just say I would be surpprised if that were the case.