Kitsune9tails

So, like the Arena, but...

- Everyone has a portable Arena kiosk.
- There are non-deathmatch options (other than Pokemon).

Sounds good, but what about non-instanced Zone PvP? Just drop it altogether?

You don't follow David Lynch stories. They drag you behind them, kicking and screaming into the darkness. That's not the same thing.

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This is one of the reasons that Princess Mononoke stands head and shoulders above, say, Bakshi's Wizards.

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BAH!

You're right, of course, but still...
...BAH!

So Venture, when do you start the thread where you review Dev/canon arcs?

SRS BSNS

SF Western? That'll never work...

heh, thanks!

Nothing specific really, just kind of generic style from the various parodies and pastiches I've seen here and there. When I was writing it, I kept Bogie's voice in mind, so I guess you could say Dashiel Hammett. But if I had to point at an author as inspiration, it would be Frank Miller.

I will also here plug Mike McQuay, an old college professor of mine, who wrote some SF Noir about a character named "Matt Swain". Thanks, Mike.

Now that the Devs have separated PvP and PvE, they could reconceptualize all powers for PvP.

Basically, they could allow players to designate one of their alternate Builds as a PvP build. That Build would not have access to powers that are judged to suck in PvP (this would take probably a tyear of testing and forum arguing...mightw want to make it a seperate expansion that is outside the usual flow of Issues).

All existing powers would have PvP versions that have been reworked (including all melee sets having an early or additional ranged power). Upon loading into a PvP zone, you would be forced into that build.

Or would you still want to allow people to bring PvE builds into PvP, provided they clicked "Yes I really want to do this" 6 to 12 times?

Once you worked out how all powers were to work in PvP zones, you would have to either pull all critters from there or rework the existing critters to follow similar rules.

This would just be for zone PvP; I don't see a reason to change Arena PvP,although there would be an added 'zone rules' check box so you could fight under those conditions in the Arena if you chose to.

I'd still like to see, when you clicked to enter a PvP zone, an option popup that would allow you to join an existing team and teleport to the Leaders's location upon entry (provided the Team Leader had some kind of 'fill team' option set).

That article is very interesting.

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Thanks, maybe I'll just take a swipe at you for no good reason sometime.


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I wasn't swiping at you, Smurch. I meant it literally: if we were to make all of the changes to PvP necessary for it to end up similar to Arcanaville's description, there would be a LOT of whiny forum posts. Start off with a new game, and you'd have fewer whiny posts because there are no preset expectations.

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(and maybe not even then, since PVP already has such a bad rep amongst most of the players).

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I have often suspected that you could drop a group of players into a perfectly balanced game and they'd never know it, because they would focus on what other players do that they can't, blame build for deficiencies in their skill, and clamor for 'theme' based buffs to already balanced classes.

Arcanaville's post gives a lot of food for thought. I wonder if it's possible to recreate City PvP as she describes, and how it would be received if it were handed over whole cloth. If it is what the Devs are aiming for and they are adding pieces of such a system a bit at a time and gathering data before moving forward, it might be appreciated if they said so straight out.

They've hinted that there are a lot more PvP improvements to come, but we'll see. With the attitudes of some players, they might decide to leave what they have alone rather than garner more ill will by trying to fix any problems.

Thanks!

A lot of people say the phrase, "Designed from the ground up to be PvP" but they never explain what that means.

It seems like the difference between adapting an existing system to PvP and building such a system from the ground up is purely the number of whiny posts on the forums.

What would be the difference between what we have now and a system that was designed ground up for PvP? Would some ATs not exist? Would it be twitch based? Would there be mezz resistance or protection? Is Loot necessary?

For instance, WAR or WOW. What would you take from our(old or new) PvP to add to theirs; what would would you take from them to add to ours?

Back before I13, one of the complaints on the boards was in fact that PvP was too fast. Everybody except Tankers was getting 1-3 shot.

Obviously, some people liked the speed, and others did not. For now, it seems the did nots have one.

It seems apparent to me that a lot of the changes in I13 were aimed at making PvP battles longer.

Did that help the situation in your particular case?

In any case, if you were in charge, what would be the next step?

I did a Film Noir/Hardboiled detective style arc, and an arc that may contain a few anime-esque elements. Check my signature for the arc numbers.

I will not contest that there may have been a way of handling the MArc farming situation better. There is always room for improvement.

I myself am an advocate of having the Devs poll us for methods of how to handle potential far future problems, like whatever they are planning for Issue 18 or 19. And being straightforward with reasons why they choose x method of handling a problem, which they have done a bit of in the past.

But in the case of the MArc, it was pretty much all laid out beforehand.

We told them in Beta would be abused.
They said in Beta that they would handle that by enforcing the existing policies against exploitation and modifying game elements as needed.

So far, they have not wavered from that position. They chose enforcement and pulling/adjusting game elements rather than some kind of blanket code solution or not allowing rewards.

It's not what I would have chosen, but maybe it is for the best.

In any case, I think history shows that the Devs are quite willing to overhaul systems when they decide they aren't working, so we have the entire future to hash this out.

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The farmers repeatedly said they farm because they enjoy it.

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True. However, there are also posters that do not enjoy farming, but profess they do it anyway out of a perceived need.

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I have only been playing the game for about a year, and my experience is somewhat limited, but there is one thing I am sure of. The devs can't datamine the time of day in less than a month.


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Which is why I beleive it took around a month for them to act.

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I also know this is not the first time, and its not the first time they have distorted their reasons for doing things.

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If you are not going to beleive the Devs's stated reason for doing things, that leaves you to make up your own reasons. Lots of people do it.

But whether or not you beleive anything the Devs say, logic persists that the only reason to refuse a customer's money is because you beleive accepting it would be ultimately bad for business.

Althouh I agree that making PvP and PvE powers work differently is problematic for new players, I paradoxically think it is a good move, at least in theory.

It allows the Devs to rebalance PvP until they get it right, without changing how those same powers work in PvE.

I think one thing they need to do is change the NPC critters that populate PvP zones so that they conform to those rules.

There is a disconnect between people with a PvP mindset and people who do not possess that mindset.

True PvP'ers step into a PvP zone, it goes "WHAM!DEAD" and they go "Hmmmm, why did that happen? Wow, PvP in this game is sure fast and 3D! Perhaps more movement? Perhaps I should send a tell to one of those guys after I zone out. Maybe hit some websites for some guides?"

True PvEr's never set foot in the zone, or they just lie in the hospital and alt/tab out to get a badge.

The borderline/curious/recruitables go, "WTH!??? Screw that, I'm never trying that again." And you have lost a customer. And I beleive this is the majority experience.

To be fair, many of those people would quit PvE just as fast, if the first 3 times they tried to hunt Hellions in Atlas Park they got 2 shotted.

Dying slower is a step in the right direction, IMHO. And all the other changes cascade from there.

The answer to powers working differently is dual builds, but unfortunately that doesn't help the right people. Newbies don't know how to build a PvP build.

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I enjoy playing villains. In fact, I almost entirely play villains. I would really like extra endurance for my characters. The only way to get extra endurance redside is to PvP. I haven't PvPed yet. So, no, extra rewards won't entice me to PvP. In fact, you could offer to pay me $10 million dollars, and I still wouldn't enter a PvP zone.

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Yeah, but you're crazy, Cel.

Also, it isn't necessary to PvP to get that accolade. Simply sitting in the hospital afk will do the trick just as well. Well, unless you consider getting the Lanista badge PvP...

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And the reason I have seen many posters complain in this very forum about that accolade?

Because they are so afraid of getting defeated and smack talked in a PvP zone that they won't step in long enough to learn that there is a safe place they can sit for the accolade. They don't know anyone who PvPs, so they haven't heard that. They don't hang around in the PvP sections of the boards, so they aren't reading this post.

The only thing that will get people like that to try PvP is some update sitting on the updater that says, "New PvP stuff added that makes it easier to get into without getting pwned!"

The only thing that will get them to stay is being able to play their first few times without getting pwned. Defeated is fine, but pwned by definition means someone is basically trying to drive them away.

Try to drive someone like that away, and you will likely succeed.

If code can help, I really think it needs to include some kind of skills matching and 'no effort teaming'.

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Anything a farmer can do, a non-farmer can do (in general). The practice spreads beyond those people who can 'handle' it. It spreads to people who hate it but now beleive they have to do it, and it spreads to just plain TOO MANY people.


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That's called a slippery slope argument. It's a well known logical fallacy. If it were true why isn't everyone doing it now ?

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Then, before you kow it, Farming is not a few outliers having fun. It becomes the normal speed of the game. "Everyone does it", and all that. It becomes an activity the Devs can't tolerate or ignore, because that all-important average speed to 50 begins to creep up or maybe even leap up.

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This has been challenged but no one has presented anything to show it is actually true.

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I can't prove that, but you know it's true.

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No I don't.

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Slippery Slope: I am just quoting the sentiments I have seen on these very boards. Many posters, speaking for themselves have indeed maintained their belief that they farm, despite their dissatisfaction with the 'grind', "because they feel they have to".

Why isn't everyone doing it: There is nothing that 'everyone' does, including breathe. It is indeed a false statement. I myself do not farm. But the overwhelming sentiment on these boards is that 'everyone' does. More importantly: enough people do it that the Devs took notice and acted. That, to me, is significant. I don't think that the Devs would have taken action without datamining showing enough people engaging in the activity that they felt NOT acting was extremely bad for the game. They put the brakes on activity that was making them money hand over fist. They would not have done that without a perception that some kind of doom or major harm was imminent.

You know it's true: I will concede the point; it is entirely possible that you don't know it's true.

Understood. I am hoping that datamining will result in a reduction of the minimums for each difficulty level.

I don't think it will happen, but it would be interesting:

Since we will soon be able to pick individual powers above the minimum for each difficulty, you would have to evaluate each power in a vacuum and again in combination with each other power and give it an xp value based on each of those and the combinations, then increase the xp value.

Although ideally, the xp of a foe should actually based on its' difficulty vs the specific PC.

When you attacked a foe, the system would run a quick calculation:

- How many attacks will it take to defeat this foe (including damage, tohit v defense, etc)?
- How many attacks will it take for this foe to defeat me (as above)?

Your xp would then be adjusted appropriately.

Not that this would be dynamic, so if you suddenly got a bunch of buffs, your xp would go down (as the foe is no longer as much of a threat). Likewise, if you got taken down to 1 hp by the first hit, your xp would shoot way up.

Naturally, this would lead to a bunch of people trying to farm while at 1 hp.

Depending on the numbers, I think I'm okay with that.

"Soon".

No seriously, they already said that there would be new custom critter power choice options in I15: I hope by then the datamining supports lowering the damage of these attacks.

Heh, I doubt if any rewards for custom criters are going up until months after the Devs feel absolutely sure they won't be farmed.

On the other hand, jacking up the rewards on a particular critter would be a great way to locate any farmers they wanted to get rid of...

Here, IMHO, is the other Great Secret about Farming.

Farming is not inherently evil; in fact a certain amount of it can be good for the game. If only the people who actually enjoy farming farm, those people are getting their needs met and will stay subscribed. This is good.

But farms spread.

Anything a farmer can do, a non-farmer can do (in general). The practice spreads beyond those people who can 'handle' it. It spreads to people who hate it but now beleive they have to do it, and it spreads to just plain TOO MANY people.

Then, before you kow it, Farming is not a few outliers having fun. It becomes the normal speed of the game. "Everyone does it", and all that. It becomes an activity the Devs can't tolerate or ignore, because that all-important average speed to 50 begins to creep up or maybe even leap up.

Farming, even extreme farming might be okay in this game if the MArc were putting out enough fun content to keep those fastracked purpled-out 50s busy for months and months. But it CAN'T because once you've spent 50 levels on easy high-profit content, how are you going to switch over to no-profit, difficult content?

If you are a 'true farmer', this is no big deal; you just farm up and alt and have fun doing it. If you are a 'wannabe farmer' or a 'farmer hanger on' and you don't PvP, what are you going to do with that 8 hour, max level, purpled-out guy that you just put yourself through hours of torture to get?

Farm the ITF for fun? No, becaue you don't actually like farming itself.

The Devs have to respond; with nerfs, tougher foes, or code that just plain slows you down.

When really, all they want is for you to play your character the way you want to and not worry about how fast you are levelling or acquiring loot. This whole game is designed around the projected habits of the casual gamer.

If you don't beleive this game was designed for everyone to level at the speed you are levelling, then you know why 'farming is bad for the game". If there were only 1000 or so people doing it, it wouldn't be a problem.

When you see the Devs add a 'press this button to level to 50 with a purple build' button to Breakout/Outbreak, then you will know that all farming is okay, and that the game has been restructured so that farming won't break it.

The simple truth is, if the Devs did not compensate for farmers, then all foes in this game would give larger rewards faster. Farming affects everyone. I can't prove that, but you know it's true.

EDIT: Oh, and if you beleive that "thus and so is obviously intended by the Devs because it's been in the game for 5 years", then talk to a PvPer. Or a /Regen. Or a Controller.