Kitsune9tails
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Posts
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Quote:Perhaps more importantly, the xp value of a critter is no indication of how much fun it will be to fight it.Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
The other takeaway I got from this is that, basically, the reward percentage functions as a proxy for the exploitability of an NPC, not its threat level. It's not intended to tell you how dangerous an NPC is, only whether it's dangerous enough. We're intended to figure out how dangerous an NPC is by looking at its powers, and by testing it. And if you think about it, trying to determine the threat level of a single NPC in isolation is pretty much futile once you consider the effects of stacking with other NPCs of its type and of synergy with NPCs of other types.
What this info does is allow us to make missions that we can mathematically claim give the right xp in good conscience. This has no bearing on whether that's true in practice for people who play through the mission: they might bring the 'wrong' powers, play with the 'wrong' playstyle, etc and still come out feeling (justifiably) the mission gives 'low' xp. They just won't be able to point at our Bosses and put the blame on the number coming out of them.
So the next step is to make sure that this system is indeed unexploitable.
Once that is accomplished we will then need to consider whether it is even possible to create a tool that evaluates a critter in terms of danger and synergy factors.
My thought is that a true Linear Invincibility Evaluation System would not be possible without some [tech] that figures this info out dynamically (perhaps using Real Numbers), which could lead to a whole new 'conning system': you look at a creature and if it's purple, that doesn't mean that it 4 levels/ranks higher, it means that based on its stats at this moment, considering who is on its' side and who is on yours, it's going to wipe the floor with you if you engage it (it has calculated that on average you will need to attack it 20 times to defeat it over the course of 20 seconds, and in that time it only needs to attack you 10 times, which it can do).
The only other way would be to statically compare each critter to some hypothetical 'average team'. Much easier, but perhaps much less useful. -
Quote:Thanks for those!Originally Posted by RosaQuartz
Just off the top of my head (and no, I don't need to have any of these answered, or even have a desire for the creators to explain them at some point):
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Quote:I'm not Fred, but I think I understand what he means: here's my process (which of course I erroneously beleive to be the most common one).Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Talk me through this process. I'm not trying to be obtuse: I genuinely want to know step by specific step how you construct these critters, and at each stage what information would be useful to you and in what way. Try not to gloss over anything, because tiny details might be important to me.
But as I said, take me through the process. Maybe its an issue that is addressable, but perhaps not in a way we're currently discussing.
1: Why do I want to make a custom group/boss? In this case, let's say I decide to do a story about a group of beings that are data incarnate. Each one's powers indicate and derive from utter understanding of an individual aspect of existence.
The AV/Hero class being behind them is the one who knows all about the unknowable; a being that embodies the sentient city-dimension from which they hail: a being known as Arcanaville.
Thus, I want to create a Boss or higher class critter that has powers that feel magical and mathematically derived.
2: We'll skip over costume creation except to say that a snazzy costume can 'cry out' for a certain powerset.
3: Let's say I want to make a Boss.
4: I want this Boss to be fairly formidable, so let's make her Ranged and Flying.
5: We decide we want this Boss to be worth at least 100% xp at level 50.
6: This character is both a being and a place, so I will choose Gravity Control for its' space-warping attributes. We start off with the powers Propel, Wormhole and Dimension Shift (all powers that to me indicate manipulating her extradimensional nature); this gets us to 27%.
7: We hop over to secondary sets to give it some defensive powers so that she doesn't get downed like a free lunch. We decide to go with Kinetics, to model the way in which Arcanaville can leverage data to her advantage, using an opponent's strengths against them. Picking up everything but Speed Boost here gets us to 40%.
8: Back to Primaries to beef up her thematic powers with some actual damage. We add Singularity (lol) which gets us to 74%. This puts us at the brink: adding either Crush or Gravity Distortion at this point will put us over 100%.
I think this is the point that Fred is talking about: which would he want to add at this point to hug close to 100%? Or maybe he wants to go with Lift and stay at 96%?
Backing up a step, I can see that adding Crush instead of Singularity gets us up to 86% (+46%). Adding Gravity Distortion instead gets us to a mere 76% (+36%). This seems to indicate that it is safer to add Gravity Distortion along with Singularity if I want to get above 100%, and that would presumably put us at 110%?
Thus for those who haven't been keeping track, she ends up with:
Prefers Range
Flying
Propel, Wormhole, Dimension Shift, Singularity, Gravity Distortion
Transfusion, Siphon Power, Siphon Speed, Transference, Fulcrum Shift
Hope that helps.
For my own part, I havent actually redone any of the critters in any of my missions under the new system yet; been testing other stuff.
Also, I would be VERY hesitant to use the above Boss in anything: she looks like she'd be very annoying to fight against.
Hmmm...
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Is there a list somewhere of the island mysteries that were deliberately left as island mysteries (and aren't mistakes/bloopers)? Or is that all still being pieced together?
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Quote:If this can get past the 'similar to player character powersets' design concept, I beleive this is the best mechanical suggestion to fix the problem.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Adding two powers that are "the same" is not literally possible, but as you suggest you can always add two identical powers that have different names. In that case, the critter will use them both no different than if it just had two ranged attacks. The critters don't actually really "know" what their attacks are called so whether the critter has two power blasts or one power blast and one power bolt really means nothing to them.
Of course, the fact that this problem exists at all might point to an issue with the powersets themselves, at least in PvP. Or with PvE depending on whether the player is smarter than the game AI... -
I understand what you want and why you want it. I want it too.
I don't see it becoming enough of a priority that it will be provided before GR comes out unless it is trivially easy enough that Aeon gets it done in his spare time.
This partly because the information is not only 'extra', it is likely misleading. -
The more I think about it, the more it seems that there needs to be a ranged attack pool of some kind. Once you have given a Boss all of the melee and defense powers you want, you really need to be able to give them a few ranged powers not just to bring their xp up but to make them a true threat to kiters.
A pure melee Boss just isn't a full xp threat to an intelligent PC with speed and range, and the system accurately reflects that. -
Thinks of 'Disturbing Grandma' and shudders.
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My guess is that having more than 5 attacks is useless because then you have a full attack chain and some won't ever activate.
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Perhaps someone should put up a seperate 'no spoilers' final episode thread.
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Quote:The second ranged attack, for sure. An energy/lethal attack with no secondary effect that can be customized to look like various things (hurled bolt, hurled axe, hurled spell) would be really cool, IMHO.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Question: what do you think would be more fair: try to increase the value of melee attacks in melee sets (which honestly might be difficult without opening other exploitability doors) or simply adding a second ranged attack in the melee sets which would allow players to add another higher value ranged attack on the boss while still avoiding the strongest melee attacks in the melee powersets if desired?
I'll also 'vote' in favor of a 'ranged attack pool' for AE critters. More options (so long as they are balanced) is good.
An alternative way to handle the problem might be to make sure that melee critters have a way of reaching hover snipers (greater leap height, or even more movement power options that are set to activate when the critter gets 'frustrated' trying to reach a target). -
I wonder if some of the powers that are giving 0% xp are doing so because they think they won't get activated because of how the AI works?
For instance "This is an attack power, but your attack chain is already full of attacks that will recharge faster, so this one won't ever queue" even if the power in question is a damage aura or the like. -
Testing:
Note that by 'minimum powers', I mean the minimum number of powers, not the 'least offensive' since that would be a subjective call. I chose Primaries in the order of Throwing Knives, Build Up, Headsplitter, Hack, Slash... but once I hit 100% I checked back to see if lower level powers would still put me over.
The Comparison is all secondary powers chosen, plus the mentioned primaries.
Obviously, the system values offense over defense (as it should, IMHO) and will not agree with all players on all possible combinations.
Please check me on these.
Melee Boss, Level 50
Secondary: Dark Armor (all powers)
Minimum Broadsword Powers to reach 100%:
Throwing Knives, Build Up, Headsplitter
Comparison: Hack, Slash, Throwing Knives = 90%
Secondary: Electric Armor
Minimum Broadsword Powers to reach 100%:
Hack, Throwing Knives, Build Up
Comparison: Hack, Slash, Throwing Knives = 100%
Secondary: Fiery Aura (all powers)
Minimum Broadsword Powers to reach 100%:
Hack, Throwing Knives, Build Up
Comparison: Hack, Slash, Throwing Knives = 95%
Secondary: Invulnerability (all powers)
Minimum Broadsword Powers to reach 100%:
Hack, Throwing Knives, Build Up, Headsplitter
Comparison: Hack, Slash, Throwing Knives = 71%
Secondary: Regeneration (all powers)
Minimum Broadsword Powers to reach 100%:
Hack, Throwing Knives, Build Up, Headsplitter
Comparison: Hack, Slash, Throwing Knives = 72%
Secondary: Shield Defense (all powers)
Minimum Broadsword Powers to reach 100%:
Hack, Throwing Knives, Build Up, Headsplitter
Comparison: Hack, Slash, Throwing Knives = 72%
Secondary: Super Reflexes (all powers)
Minimum Broadsword Powers to reach 100%:
Hack, Throwing Knives, Build Up, Headsplitter
Comparison: Hack, Slash, Throwing Knives = 77%
Secondary: Willpower (all powers)
Minimum Broadsword Powers to reach 100%:
Hack, Throwing Knives, Build Up, Headsplitter
Comparison: Hack, Slash, Throwing Knives = 88%
IMPORTANT (?)
It seems like the system also tries to guess when you have a full attack chain and stops adding value for more melee powers at that point.
In case it matters, all powers were chosen under the Scrapper category. -
My ideas:
- The words "The End" with the final credits rolling, and then at the last second they add a "?"
- A CGI Rod Serling shows up and explains everything.
- Bobby Ewing in the shower.
- At least one of the cast members boards the SS Minnow for a 3 hour tour.
- The entire cast turns out to be superhuman criminals trapped in an interactive psychic reality by Matt Parkman. -
Something else that may be worth consideration:
The debt/reward ratio in the AE is probably a lot closer to what the Devs want than the regular foes. I get the feeling that they actually would prefer the game overall to be a bit more difficult than it currently is. -
It's entirely possible to stop the exploiters; at worst, you just shut the AE down completely. Its just a matter of cost.
There are in general 2 types of exploits: making rewards risk free, and making rewards arrive faster than the 'speed limit'.
The speed limit issue seems fairly easy to address: instead of levying a reward penalty on the AE, put in an actual hard cap on what you can get in a particular time unit. Who cares if you hit the xp/inf/drop limit in an hour if that limit is still at a level that won't break the game? Well a lot of exploiters would care; very few non-exploiters (IMHO) are able to reach half the speed of what an exploiter can. Most players would never know a speed limit was in place.
Risk free rewards is tougher. It's practically encouraged by the system to cap defense/resistances to a particular damage type and then seek out enemies that depend on it, or get enough control that you are 'fighting statues', et cetera. The only real solution to that seems to be to enforce a diversity of enemy attacks and resistances, which is expressly against what being able to create custom enemies in the AE is about.
And that's before you get into things like critters that defeat themselves or each other so the player doesn't even have to be present.
I'd love to have a dialogue with the Devs on this, but it would be counterproductive of them to alert any possible exploiters as to how they intend to stop them from exploiting.
However, players being able to create unlimited content for each other is the Holy Grail of online gaming. It's something that needs to be figured out. Who doesn't want a generation of games with infinite fun content to come out? -
Quote:I think that team is tasked to all problems with the AE, not just exploits.Originally Posted by Tokyo
I find the fact that there's a development group tasked specificly for finding solutions to the AE exploit problems hilarious.
In any case, I don't think the Devs continue to get paid if they give up on chasing exploiters, regardless of how thankless the task may be. -
Quote:My personal opinion is that every aspect of every MMO is a work in progress not to be judged complete until after the servers shut down for a the last time.Originally Posted by Sumericon
That at least explains why they would be willing to take their lumps now from the players and in the press for the current incarnation, because it's merely a laboratory and not the finished product.
At no time is a Dev team going to see an obvious problem, regardless of how long after launch it appears, and just go, "Well, we have to live with that, because we didn't think of it years ago."
They may decide they have to live with it for the time being because other things take priority, however. Even then, they will usually try to address the issue in indirect ways (adjusting critter AI, reward tables, the UI, etc). -
It varies, but I'll go for things that have gotten a good review on the forums first, then things in sigs, then just kind of poking around for something that looks good and also un-farm-like.
Actual recommendations jump to the top of the list. -
Yep.
Are you suggesting that nothing should be done to AE rather than risk the Devs having 'ambivalent' success in making it easier to find arcs you would like?
If so, I can understand that, while disagreeing. -
I see your point, and I agree that more data is better, hence non-anonymous.
Sure, a person might just choose not to give an arc a bad rating, rather than rate low to avoid repurcussions, but that wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing: people would theoretically be 'following' you to see what arcs you liked, not the ones you disliked.
The real problem with non-anonymous ratings would be people deliberately rating an enemy low, but that problem corrects itself if people are judging arcs by who rated them highly, rather than what the overall rating is.
I would also be in favor of a "people who liked this also liked..." system such as you suggest.
Something needs to be done, and if they just tackled the Market UI, then I don't think the AE is out of reach. -
Quote:I disagree about aggro, if the Granite power is otherwise balanced.Originally Posted by Starsman
I just think two things need to be addressed: Damage and Aggro management capabilities inside of Granite should be severely crippled. Aggro so that the Granite tank cant be a reliable 100% uptime tank in special encounters and damage for obvious reasons.
If as I beleive, Granite can be set up to act as a 'Godmode Panic Button' when activated, then have its' effect reduce itself to 'merely the strongest armor in the game, with drawbacks' similar to other Tier 9s, then it can retain its aggro abilities.
I think it would draw unnecessary aggro from Granite players if Granite was changed from a tanking tool so a 'solo survivability' tool. I can forsee people dreading Stone Tankers going into Granite mode. This would be hilarious, but not productive.
Damage I agree about, since Granite is effectively a defensive stance, trading offense (and movement) for defense. -
The problem with the rating system is that it is anonymous.
When you rate an arc, the system should say "this rating will be searchable by other players, is that ok?"
When you click on an arc, you should be able to see who rated it at 5 stars, 4 stars or whatever, so in the future you can know whether those people have tastes that align with your own.
You should be able to create a list of people whose taste you trust, then when you click an arc you get a list of those people and see what they rated it.
You should be able to click on the name of someone who has recommended an arc and get a list of all the arcs they have rated.
That way, you can say to yourself, "this guy usually 5-stars boss farms" and decide whether or not you want to play more arcs that person rated.
If ratings were not anonymous, fewer ratings would be given out. This is actually, in hindsight, a good thing. -
D'oh! Okay that makes sense.
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What would making your attacks animate slower accomplish that increasing the recharge on your attacks doesn't?