JupiterMoon

traps works with all of the primaries equally well.

for melee primaries - get, use and learn to love team teleport

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^^ This.

Force Field Generator, Web Grenade, and Acid Mortar alone make Traps a good AV soloing set. The ability to avoid being stunned or held means you don't have to worry about losing your taunt, and perma-immobilization lets you tank an AV much easier since you can avoid the big melee attacks and PBAoEs (especially with the added defense from FFG). Add in -resist and -defense to speed up the fight and you've already got better tools than many sets. Now add in -damage, -regen, and an AoE regen boost for you and your pets and you have a very solid AV soloing machine.

Dark has plenty of debuffs and some heals, but no +defense (AVs resist most of the -tohit debuffs) or status protection and no immobilize (AVs resist slows so Tar Patch isn't enough). FF has defense and status protection, but no debuffs or immobilize and no healing. Pain has a ton of healing and status protection for the pets, but no personal status protection and minimal debuffs, plus no immobilize. And yes, the patron immobilizes can be slotted up to hold an AV... but not as well and they use more endurance doing it. Plus Web Grenade stacks enough to hold AVs and EBs with immobilization resistance... it can hold Professor Echo in place right through his Dispersion Bubble. With most AVs an immobilize is effectively 50-75% damage reduction since they can't melee you, and it's also a huge damage buff for Thugs or Bots due to the burn patches. Honestly, Web Grenade plus FFG alone would probably outdo half the other MM secondaries for AV hunting.

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Damn you!!! I really want to make a traps MM now for AV soloing.

Just can't decide on bots or thugs.

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thugs

with bots you need to take manuevers to soft cap your probots. gang war takes all 4 pet unique io's which are inexpensive atm (soon to change, buy em asap), enforcers and acid mortar can take an achille's heel proc for upwards of -60% resistance debuffing.

bots for flavor, thugs for function. thugs also has superior single target damage than bots which is quite noticeable when fighting an av

Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/

[u]Click this DataLink to open the build![u]

Level 50 Magic Mastermind
Primary Power Set: Thugs
Secondary Power Set: Dark Miasma
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Mu Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Call Thugs -- Acc(A), Acc(42), Dmg(43), Dmg(43), Dmg(43), EndRdx(46)
Level 1: Twilight Grasp -- Acc(A), Acc(9), Heal(17), Heal(19), EndRdx(19), RechRdx(42)
Level 2: Tar Patch -- RechRdx(A), RechRdx(3), RechRdx(3), Slow(9)
Level 4: Darkest Night -- EndRdx(A), EndRdx(5), ToHitDeb(5), ToHitDeb(7)
Level 6: Equip Thugs -- EndRdx(A), EndRdx(7)
Level 8: Combat Jumping -- DefBuff(A)
Level 10: Howling Twilight -- RechRdx(A), RechRdx(11), RechRdx(11)
Level 12: Call Enforcer -- Acc(A), Acc(13), Dmg(13), Dmg(15), DefBuff(15), DefBuff(17)
Level 14: Super Jump -- Jump(A)
Level 16: Hurdle -- Jump(A)
Level 18: Health -- Heal(A)
Level 20: Stamina -- EndMod(A), EndMod(21), EndMod(21)
Level 22: Fearsome Stare -- Acc(A), Acc(23), Fear(23), Fear(37), RechRdx(40), EndRdx(42)
Level 24: Shadow Fall -- EndRdx(A), EndRdx(25), DefBuff(25), DefBuff(37)
Level 26: Call Bruiser -- Acc(A), Acc(27), Dmg(27), Dmg(34), Dmg(34), EndRdx(37)
Level 28: Petrifying Gaze -- Acc(A), Acc(29), Hold(29), Hold(33), RechRdx(33), RechRdx(34)
Level 30: Maneuvers -- EndRdx(A), DefBuff(31), DefBuff(31), DefBuff(31)
Level 32: Upgrade Equipment -- EndRdx(A), EndRdx(33)
Level 35: Gang War -- Acc(A), RechRdx(36), RechRdx(36), RechRdx(36)
Level 38: Dark Servant -- Acc(A), Acc(39), ToHitDeb(39), RechRdx(39), RechRdx(40), RechRdx(40)
Level 41: Charged Armor -- EndRdx(A)
Level 44: Electrifying Fences -- Acc(A), Acc(45), RechRdx(45), RechRdx(45), Immob(46), Immob(46)
Level 47: Electric Shackles -- Acc(A), Acc(48), Hold(48), Hold(48), RechRdx(50), RechRdx(50)
Level 49: Hasten -- RechRdx(A), RechRdx(50)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Supremacy



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so far about the only combination that can consistantly keep up or outdamage my thugs/traps is an ss/fire brute - and that's due to the short-recharge combo's of immob+burn, and a fast recharge footstomp.

on a single target though you'd have to go to a stone melee or fire melee to compete with my thugs/traps

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Not to mention the restists smashing/lethal gets vs engery damage. But I've only got two MMs in the 40s and four 50s of various ats so what do I know ?

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not an issue. thugs powers recharge in half the time, animate faster, do more base dmg, have double assault from the enforcers and you can slot an achille's heel -resist into enforcers which gives them a total of 12 powers to keep it up. against a single target it's got an over 90% uptime. combine that with acid mortar with another achille's heel proc and you're looking at eb's with -60% resistance debuffed. and the brute's superior single target attack chain helps to push thugs passed bots substantially vs. a tough single eb or av

for the comparison:

cones and aoe's

tier 1:

bots - 1 cone, 16s recharge

thugs - 1 cone, 10s recharge, 1 aoe 6s recharge, 1 cone 16s recharge, 1 aoe 16s recharge

tier 2:

bots - 1 aoe low dmg, 16s recharge

enforcers - 1 cone 10s recharge, 1 cone 20s recharge, 1 aoe 20s recharge


tier 3:

bots - 1 aoe 25s recharge, 2 aoe's 16s recharge, 1 cone 10s recharge

thugs - 1 aoe 20s recharge

so by my math, bots have 6 aoe's with an average recharge of 16.5s. thugs have 8 aoe's with an average recharge of 14.75



single target wise we have the following (and not counting the brawl they all get):

tier 1:

bots - 1 4s recharge, 1 8s recharge

thugs - 1 2s recharge, 1 6s recharge (red tomax lists a third with the same name as the first but with a 3s recharge. it's prob just an upgrade to that single power as i've never seen them cycle more than two different single target attacks)

tier 2:

bots - 1 6s recharge, 1 10s recharge

enforcers - 1 4s recharge, 1 8s recharge

tier 3:

bots - 1 4s recharge

thugs - 1 2s recharge, 1 4s recharge, 1 8s recharge, 1 8s recharge, 1 25s recharge


now what's really crazy is when you adjust the animation times for arcanatime of all these powers as well as realize that they dont begin to recharge until after they have fully animated - then one really see's how thugs overtakes on nearly everything.

now dont get me wrong - bots doesnt suck. WHEN incendiary swarm missiles are up and IF the assault bot doesnt drop it on that one single mob out of range of the rest of the pack so that you dont get the burn patches, the fact it does 4x the dmg of the arsonist fire bomb patches means they can potentially melt packs faster

but when it's not up, the thug cones especially if you are taking the time to position everything correctly tend to take over. and single target it's not even a contest.

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bots isnt so hot against an av unless you pair it with a secondary that can debuff a lot. why you may ask?

not so great single target damage and nearly every bot attack and ability has a long recharge compared to every other primary but merc controls.

can it? yes. but it's not just av's that will drive you insane. widdershins and biff as an EB will make you want to punch a baby

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Once you get to level 32 bots have incredible dps. Burn batch and missle swarm plus full auto lasers = dead av. But you still need to debuff their regen and defense.

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yes i know this. ih ave two level 50 bots fully io'd out. they stil lhave the longest recharging attack chains of all the primaries and is why thugs WILL outdamage them on any lengthy fights even th ough they do mostly lethal damage.

but hey what the hell would i know right? i mean i've only got a thugs/traps guide from 07 that's still valid today. i'v eonly got 10 level 50 mm's 8 of them fully io'd out, 4 of them having done all the dev created content and have nothing left but AE and newspaper missions. clearly...CLEARLY..i never speak from post 32 or post 40 experience.

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I remember reading that assault bot has 2 different blasts that each does around 1000% -regen or so.

Isn't that huge in an AV fight and wouldn't that make the little extra damage thugs do over time, not matter?

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one is 500%, the double is 1000%. 30s each. but he's gotta quit messing around with the flamethrower to actually use them.

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bots isnt so hot against an av unless you pair it with a secondary that can debuff a lot. why you may ask?

not so great single target damage and nearly every bot attack and ability has a long recharge compared to every other primary but merc controls.

can it? yes. but it's not just av's that will drive you insane. widdershins and biff as an EB will make you want to punch a baby

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Once you get to level 32 bots have incredible dps. Burn batch and missle swarm plus full auto lasers = dead av. But you still need to debuff their regen and defense.

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yes i know this. ih ave two level 50 bots fully io'd out. they stil lhave the longest recharging attack chains of all the primaries and is why thugs WILL outdamage them on any lengthy fights even th ough they do mostly lethal damage.

but hey what the hell would i know right? i mean i've only got a thugs/traps guide from 07 that's still valid today. i'v eonly got 10 level 50 mm's 8 of them fully io'd out, 4 of them having done all the dev created content and have nothing left but AE and newspaper missions. clearly...CLEARLY..i never speak from post 32 or post 40 experience.

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So, how viable is necro/FF?

I was thinking about trying a necro/traps build. But honestly, Traps is a complete mystery to me. Tried it on a corrupter and lost interest around the time I got the FFG. In terms of cool toys it seemed pretty heavily backloaded. Then again, a corruptor and a MM are pretty different, so maybe traps will do the trick.

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do you want to solo av's?

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Honestly? (mini-rant warning ahead)

Why should I want to solo an AV? Please, somebody enlighten me. I really have no clue why there is non-stop talk about this subject. It just sounds like an irrelevant gimmick that's been blow up into the end-all, be-all of character greatness. Maybe there's something to it I'm just missing.

I've read some of these threads. To solo an AV, there's a very cut-and-dried formula. We know why FF doesn't work well and DM, Traps, and Poison do. It's very unlikely most of the people who do so are coming up with a build that hasn't already been done, so for them, zero points for creativity. And since the capabilities essential to shutting down an AV--namely, hefty anti-regen effects--don't carry over to the way you fight the other 99% of battles, it's not a true metric of overall power.

So, in a practical sense, what's the big whoop? Some neat badge or prize you get for doing 100% of the damage to an AV? Once I have the answer to that, I'll ponder whether or not I want to spend time taking down an AV.

Otherwise, the practical considerations mainly have to do with handling door mishes smoothly.

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this must be your first villain.

there are more arcs with EB's and AV's redside post 40 than anything blue side. you WILL run into them. yo uwill run into them several times just trying to unlock a patron pool.

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And the question is still very valid. Why have a build that can solo an AV, when a build that can handle the EB scaled version is more practical?

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many eb's arent exactly that much easier than a t ypical AV

widdershins and biff as eb's are tough if you have no reliable regen debuffs. the bots primary one on it's own isnt enough

it also depends on your definition of mm play - some people thin that replacing your pets as fast as the powers recharge is normal. i sure as hell dont

no. if you want to be able to solo positron as an eb, you will have to actually try to play the game.

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You don't. And unless you want to specifically spawn AVs, you can avoid them outright while being solo the entire time.

Really, some people just get too caught up in wanting to beat this game at its hardest. I think it's more fun to play at a level challenging (but not impossible) to one's self than to play to someone else's definition of challenging.

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you'll still get EB's, which are not necessarily that much easier.

ghost widow and dr. quaxtrin as eb's are still extremely deadly.

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this must be your first villain.

there are more arcs with EB's and AV's redside post 40 than anything blue side. you WILL run into them. yo uwill run into them several times just trying to unlock a patron pool.

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Not my first villain, but I don't have any post-40 characters, period. I don't try to rush my toons to 40 like so many others who treat everything before that as the preliminaries. I think anything past is pretty fun to play, and tapers off around 40 by virtue of all the tier 9 madness.

Having said all of that, why do I need to be able to *solo* AV's? I'll just team up with friends.

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um..rush?

you've been playing off and on since 2005 - 4 years - and have no characters over 40? not even one?

you arent just not rushing, you've gone to the extreme opposite of the spectrum

hold your opinion of how masterminds play until you've played them doing grandville arcs 40+

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I quit playing my Bots/FF at 38. Strong to the point of being boring, and no exciting powers to look forward to.

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lol

because you havent hit the real challenging red side content yet, which is all 40+

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I've run several villains to 50, pre-MA. So I believe I have indeed hit challenging red-side content.

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you havent done it on your bots/ff. it's a different experience than levelling a brute or even a dom post 40.

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So, how viable is necro/FF?

I was thinking about trying a necro/traps build. But honestly, Traps is a complete mystery to me. Tried it on a corrupter and lost interest around the time I got the FFG. In terms of cool toys it seemed pretty heavily backloaded. Then again, a corruptor and a MM are pretty different, so maybe traps will do the trick.

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do you want to solo av's?

[/ QUOTE ]
Honestly? (mini-rant warning ahead)

Why should I want to solo an AV? Please, somebody enlighten me. I really have no clue why there is non-stop talk about this subject. It just sounds like an irrelevant gimmick that's been blow up into the end-all, be-all of character greatness. Maybe there's something to it I'm just missing.

I've read some of these threads. To solo an AV, there's a very cut-and-dried formula. We know why FF doesn't work well and DM, Traps, and Poison do. It's very unlikely most of the people who do so are coming up with a build that hasn't already been done, so for them, zero points for creativity. And since the capabilities essential to shutting down an AV--namely, hefty anti-regen effects--don't carry over to the way you fight the other 99% of battles, it's not a true metric of overall power.

So, in a practical sense, what's the big whoop? Some neat badge or prize you get for doing 100% of the damage to an AV? Once I have the answer to that, I'll ponder whether or not I want to spend time taking down an AV.

Otherwise, the practical considerations mainly have to do with handling door mishes smoothly.

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this must be your first villain.

there are more arcs with EB's and AV's redside post 40 than anything blue side. you WILL run into them. yo uwill run into them several times just trying to unlock a patron pool.

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I quit playing my Bots/FF at 38. Strong to the point of being boring, and no exciting powers to look forward to.

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lol

because you havent hit the real challenging red side content yet, which is all 40+

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So, how viable is necro/FF?

I was thinking about trying a necro/traps build. But honestly, Traps is a complete mystery to me. Tried it on a corrupter and lost interest around the time I got the FFG. In terms of cool toys it seemed pretty heavily backloaded. Then again, a corruptor and a MM are pretty different, so maybe traps will do the trick.

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do you want to solo av's?

the problem with necro/ff is that the tier 3 pet has very little to no dmg and you have no resistance debuffs to help the grave knights and zombies, nor any -regen powers to complement it all.

i wouldnt make one t hinking i could solo most av's or biff/widdershins as +2 eb's, but there's nothing wrong with th ecombo otherwise.

bots isnt so hot against an av unless you pair it with a secondary that can debuff a lot. why you may ask?

not so great single target damage and nearly every bot attack and ability has a long recharge compared to every other primary but merc controls.

can it? yes. but it's not just av's that will drive you insane. widdershins and biff as an EB will make you want to punch a baby

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Very nice Nicro. I may "borrow" from that....

By the way, something is messed up with my Mid's in calculating regen I think.... I get 200% more regen opening some builds than others, which just can't be right. Must be something to do with RttC number of foes.

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You need to 'turn on' Fast Healing and Health. Your build doesn't have Fast Healing on when I opened it up. Also your regen powers are somewhat underslotted comparatively so that could explain the rest of the difference you are seeing since your global regen bonus is only about 20% less than mine.

I highly recommend frankenslotting Siphon Life. The enhancement bonuses are significantly more important than set bonuses for this power. For example, slotting for the heal can add 150HP/3 seconds or about 500% regen. That's about as much as a fully saturated RttC provides. 3 common Heal IOs can provide nearly as much regen bonus as your entire secondary when fully saturated. It's just scary how good this power is so be sure to get the most out of it.

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in mids i mad a fire/wp scrapper

i then made a fire/wp brute. exact same slotting both chars. the same io sets in the same powers in the same order

i then killed both instances of mids and redid everything because for some reason i was getting 705% regen on the scrapper but only 608% on the brute.

shrug. sometimes i think mid's math is off. they are both at 340% in mids before anything is slotted.

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I was hoping for electric or stone melee for scrappers

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scrappers can have stone when brutes get bs/kat, claws and spines

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Fine, katana and bs would do less damage than mace and axe anyway. And everyone should have claws

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damage isnt why i want bs/katana on brutes

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I was hoping for electric or stone melee for scrappers

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scrappers can have stone when brutes get bs/kat, claws and spines

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Well this is great fun!

I have a few questions for the experts.

In game my Probots are giving me 7.5% defense. This is enhanceble correct? If I slot two level 50 defense IOs that will increase it by 49.7% at level 50. Making the overall defense buff 11.22% from one bubble correct?

Tar Patch. -90% run speed by default. If I add a slow enhancement and brin that to over -100% run speed does that mean that critters caught in it are effectively immobilized? Would I be better served adding two recharge IOs and getting Tar Patch double stacked for 10 seconds for the -res or adding one recharge and one slow enhancement? Even with one recharge Tar Patch is still permanent. I just can't stack it

Thanks for the help?

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you cant drop critter movement to below..5?....%. that was a fix put in issue 1 cause blasters could use caltrops to immobolize huge packs.

i had a question much like the title of this thread go through my head on my date last week

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Yeah of course. He's like a level 50 and the Clockwork stop at level 20.

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Levels don't enter into it. I'd say the same about a Malta Zeus Titan.

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cause comic books have levels? someone is reading kung-fu comics now i guess

dunno why you folks keep feeding him and this thread - his hypocrisy is ludicrous

if you want a heavy hitter, roll a brute.

tanks are not an offensive at and no amount of non-sensical and hypocritical whining from you will change that.

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See, I fundamentally disagree with your number 4 assumption. Not all builds are eqallyt good at soloing. ANd frankly not all builds are equally good, period. IF you didnt do the research and/or analysis to figure out which ones were better (or if you chose to build a sub-optimal character anyway) then you do not get the same performance as someone who did. If you want that performance, roll a better character.

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You miss the point that there shouldn't BE drastically better characters based on things players can't control like what power set contains massively overpowered debuffs and what set contains attacks with an overly resisted damage type.

Tell me, what would a dev say if someone asked to TRIPPLE the damage of Tankers?

Or if someone suggested making Blasters as survivable as Brutes?

They would say 'no' because that would be overpowered. There would be little reason to play any other AT. They would become the optimal AT.

That is what you are preaching. That flys in the face of all the balancing effort the devs have put into the game. You're saying it's OK for a handfull of combos to better for no reason other than a mathamatical quirk or because eliminating that outlier would create other problems.

That isn't rewarding hard work or skill with better performace. That's rewarding someone who followed a build guide someone else wrote and either farmed for a lot of hours or bought inf to obtain IOs.

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and you can't blame me if, as one of those people, IM not keen to see my hard work rendered irrelevent.

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You didn't "work hard" at all. You pushed buttons in a video game, George Jetson.

And I pushed buttons too. As many as you, for as long as you. And I pay the same fee every month as you too. So why should you get rewarded because one combo and AT is better than another? Why am I wrong for picking something different?

You likely have no more skill at this game than I do. I could roll the same AT and combo as you and within a short time devise a AV soloing build based what players who've gone before me have discovered. With my network of friends I could have him leveled up and outfitted with IOs in short order. Suddenly, your "work", is rendered just as irrelevent.

But just as I don't crawl inside glitched geometry just because it's possible, I don't build a character with no real concept behind it just because that outlier is better.

And just the same as that hangar glitcher I kicked from my server, I don't think it's fair to the vast majority of players, including anyone else who builds for something other than pure performance, that such outliers exist. And I'm especially disgusted that anyone can have a feeling of entitlement or superiority because they choose to take advantage of them.

***


Now if you'll excuse me, I'm done with this line of the discussion. You've made me very mad, and not for the reason you likely expect.

You've made me stand up for the devs, defend them and even compliment them in these little exchanges. That makes me feel so dirty I can't describe, especially since when the sun rises tomorrow, they're still going to continue to deny me the things I've spent two and a half years fighting for.


.

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gotta love the hypocrisy

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And I just explained to Blue_Mourning how Tankers could occasionally appoach Brute damage and not make anyone obsolete.


.

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which is total BS


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Well, why don't you ask Castle what he thinks of it.



.

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a change like this which would have a far-reaching impact on the games balance across all melee toons would most likely not be up to Castle alone.

you cant have even spurts of brute levels of dmg unless whatever mechanic gave it to you set your resistances, defenses and base health to that of a brute.

and even if any such mechanic were given, it would need a 10 minute unenhanceable recharge just to start

your constant justifcations of 'that's how it is in the comics' is total BS. the big huge-sized tanker types werent always the most powerful entities - Phoenix/Dark Phoenix would be an uber controller as an example. clearly to conform to your vision that this game be exactly like the comics and have no originality, our controllers should be able to eat entire suns (which would hose your weaksauce character), turn your brains to mush and dissassemble mobs at the molecular level.

and the only way in hell a tanker gets this mechanic and if this mechanic does not completely lock out the ability to take and use a tier 9 while the power is active, i want an inverse of the mechanic given to brutes - a dmg reduction in order to hit tanker levels of defense, resistances and health.

since a teamed tanker can hit it's damage cap right now in game with a single fulcrum shift, your idea wouldnt work without an inrease in the tanker damage cap - and that would be just shy of being totally moronic.

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And I just explained to Blue_Mourning how Tankers could occasionally appoach Brute damage and not make anyone obsolete.


.

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which is total BS

you have absolutely no idea about balancing a multi player game. not a single clue.