Judgement_Dave

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/rantoff sorry i just dont like seeing non-unique toons! I like seeing players who put thought and effort into thinking up a concept and everything, not something that was thought up by another person 175 years ago (a plumber told me that as an estimate).

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If a plumber estimated 175 years you can bet it's at least 250 years by time it's done.

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Not sure about "predict" - we could guess, and some of those guesses might happen to be correct. Does that count as a prediction?

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If it's good enough for astrologers and economists...

The key to being able to predict the future is making lots of not-too-impossible predictions and then repeatedly pointing out the 2 or 3 you got right whilst forgetting to mention the 20,000 that never happened.

Either that or write in code and go insane... some other loonies will manage to decode your works centuries later to discover that you really did pick the yankees to win 'when the moon turns blood red and the great bear departs'.

try here.

Any chance we'll hear about your trip before I14?

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I imagine the "Dev choice" may well be led by the community managers and GMs, some of whom are probably going to be in the game anyways to help out players when needed. I wouldn't be too surprised if collecting a few "Dev choice" awards may also give an option to flag other missions for Dev notice too, so as the group of quality mission writers with Dev approval grows, the faster they'll find others of merit.

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Which would be more reasonable than having the developers do it all.

All depends how correct the notes from PAX are (which state that it's the developers themselves).

I'd actually thought that the better option was to go off player ratings and then get some NC minion to give the 'top raters' a once-over for quality. And I'd hope that the 'quality' was fairly loose to allow some unlocks by anyone who can design interesting, reasonably-well written, typo-free missions that don't shatter the (glass?) canon... y'know the sort of mission that you quite enjoy, and would play again, but maybe wasn't a 'must-play'.

This is some distance from giving unlockables to the designers of missions that the developers themselves happen to think are cool (as reported from PAX). After all, if this is true, surely the devs are going to want truly outstanding examples of mission-writing if they are going to mark the writer as 'cool' and someone who really impressed them.

Whichever way it goes, I trust that they'll be publishing some form of submission guidelines giving minimum expectations.

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I seriously hope the and more part at the end of the announcement really means MORE not just something silly like "we're adding more badges earned, badges"

More Co-op zones, hero TF rebuilds, SG base upgrades, PvP content and all the old bugs should be fixed before this imo. After all, bar the Co-op zone bit all the other 4 have needed looking at for years.

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And as you've been here for years you know that the devs tend to do at least 2 major announcements of issue content.

So the and more part and the (Posi-given?) pointers to SG base love seem to say that there will be more than just something silly yet to be announced.

It's worth considering that you write-off PCC but mention SG base improvements and co-op content in a positive light. Many other players may have exactly the opposite view. The devs have to try keeping every plate happy and spinning - the 1st I13 announcement spun the PCC plate, but it'll be a different plate for the 2nd content announcement.

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As for the rating, its faily irelevent. Missions will inevitably attract forum reviews, and its the ones that get good reviews on the forums that will be the most played.

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Because the majority of players in the game read the forums...?

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I don't think that mission reviews would draw people who play but don't usually visit the forums.

As I said in the early hours: I do think the forums will start to attract the mission designers, many of whom I'd guess haven't been forum regulars, as the forums will probably become the mission designer help system. Sure that some/most designers will also read any reviews/pointers that appear, but I wouldn't expect the majority of players to.

Because of the high number that don't visit the forums I'll be interested to see if/how the mission designer is mentioned in-game. Just mentioning it on the loading screen won't be enough, I'd guess it'd probably need some in-game direction to guide ordinairy (non-forum reading) players to the mission-designer and PCC missions... which could be tricky to do in-game.

Maybe the 1st PCC arc to be submitted ought to be one that tackles introducing players to designing/accessing PCC arcs.. .. and does so in a better way than the NorCal written introduction!

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That's stupid, and untrue - there's absolutely no moral, logical or business reason for them not to choose the very best quality missions to make "official", rather than just pick them by names.

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I don't expect them to be picking 'by names' - conciously at least.

But if enough people start producing content then it's going to be like having a big costume competition in Atlas with lots of judges - each judge (dev) may have different idea what they think makes a good mission. And there may be so many entrants (missions) that it becomes a very difficult task to pick a 'winner'.

In this sort of environment a familiar face can get the edge over an unfamiliar one and it's possible for wallflowers to be missed entirely...

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I've tended to think that there won't be... but I could point out, if I were to be paranoid, that players not seeing who created a mission won't stop the devs and GMs knowing.

It's kinda their database... they're kinda super users but that doesn't mean that they're going to be impartial.

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But why wouldn't they be? Their main concern will be to deliver a high quality product - so the only thing that'll matter when they choose missions is the quality, not who made them.

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They are human, the natural state of humaness is to be a jerk.

To not be a jerk takes effort.

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That's about right. But even when trying not to be a jerk subconcious likes/dislikes about the author may cloud their judgement.

Heck even without a name to a mission it's possible that the devs will know (or can guess) who created a mission. Mission ideas may have been discussed on the forums. People may have asked for help on using the editor and described part of a mission. Writing style may be recognisable. I know it's been said that only a small percentage of players use the forums: but I'd imagine that many mission authors will use the forums. I'd imagine that the forums will become the main source of help for using the designer. Heck - wouldn't surprise me if we see a new board appearing in October....

btw I don't really buy into any US-bias from the devs other than the simple fact that they live in the US and have limited time to interact with players - so obviously the players who are awake when they are may get superficially preferential treatment when it comes to forum interaction. Not really preferential as much as practical...

But that does mean that the devs are aware of certain US players more and being human they'll have their own preconceptions/opinions about the players that they recognise from the US boards. If a call is borderline it could easily help that the devs looking at your mission know who you are and know that you generally know your stuff and have even made them laugh once or twice...

Of course this same human response works against anyone who's been a complete jackass on the US boards...


Aside from subconcious prejudice, I do still question the whole idea of getting devs to spend time doing this.

Great idea for the odd competition (and one per issue sounds a good idea, once the playerbase has had a while to learn the ropes of the mission architect) but not, imo, a great idea for everyday, run-of-the-mill unlockables/badges... of course I'm assuming that the devs want the unlockables (e.g. AVs) to be available to a reasonable number of mission designers. It would appear to be a waste of development if they only want two or three people to unlock these - I'd have thought that they'd want them avaialable to most people with a reasonable proficiency in mission writing/design.

I've tended to think that there won't be... but I could point out, if I were to be paranoid, that players not seeing who created a mission won't stop the devs and GMs knowing.

It's kinda their database... they're kinda super users but that doesn't mean that they're going to be impartial.

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I think it's quite likely that one of the rewards will be an increased mission allowance, so popular missions = high ratings = more mission slots made available.
Or, it coudl eb that once you have a "Dev Choice" mission, it's no longer "yours", so it's removed from your allowance when it's upgraded to an "official" mission - so even if you only ever could have 5-6 missions/arcs, as long as you were creating good ones, and having them made "official", you'd be getting mission allowance space freed up quite often.


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Considered something like that. Still think that an initial 5 or 6 mission maximum may be very restrictive. 5 or 6 missions or arcs may be more like it.


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As far as I know, the player created content is going to be like the auction hosues - it'll be transatlantic, and not restricted to servers, or American/Euro game versions.

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Yup - and as you know I said as much just after the bit of my post that you quoted!

The basic query still stands though: Is it a good idea, as a matter of course, to have the developers deciding who gets to use various factions/AVs? Is it a god use of their time? Can they objectively cope with vetting all deserving created content? Will unknown Johnny_Euro get the same treatment for his arc as Lady_Sadako, Lemur_Lad, Lady_Athyna etc?

They're the basic questions that need answering, not whether it will be cross-server-group (which II think Hero-1 confirmed).

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XP: Missions do not give out full xp/inf/drops. Unless they meet a certain condition that will be mentioned later.


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How to waste months of development time the NC way!
Err why would I waste my valuable playtime for less reward just cos a player wrote the mission text ( which frankly I don't read anyway ). Why not just take a loaded weapon point it at your foot and pull the trigger it would probably have much the same effect.

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If it is purely rewards that you are interested in then I'm sure existing content will meet any and all farming needs that you have.

A slightly-reduced reward for PCC is what I've always expected - the thing that surprises me is that dev-approval (the certain condition) can apparently remove the reduction.

Thanks loads, Dr T, for forwarding the info to our EU boards.

All sounding good so far - though I (immediately) wonder about 3 things mentioned today:

* Only submit 5 or 6 missions
Wonder if that's submit 5 or 6 missions and that's your lot for ever or submit 5 or 6 until they get approval/high ratings. i.e. it seems daft if it's a hard limit of 6 missions to limit someone who may be writing universally acclaimed missions to just 6 missions!

Also - do arcs count as 1 mission in this? Otherwise 5 or 6 missions is submitting just one solitary arc...



* a dev's choice is what unlocks the special factions and AVs
Hmmmm...

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Do they really mean devs? As in developers. As in not just any old NC staff. As in the comparatively tiny group of people who very rarely give the EU much time whatsoever.

Guess we'll just have to hope that we can persuade War Witch to look at the cream of the EU when she's next over...
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It does strike me as odd that the developers need to think your work is 'cool' before you get unlocks... I can see this having great potential to head to the content monopoly fears about unlockable rewards.

And the dev team is tiny compared to the playerbase... may need to wait and see how many players become authors, but I wonder about taking the devs time to notice/rate PCC missions. And wonder more about the wisdom of linking major unlocks to this dev-involvement.

I know that it looks like the PCC will be cross-server with no EU/US split, so it's maybe unfair to think that the EU may get the less-desirable end of the stick on this... But I guess that it depends partly on whether authorship is known and whether missions can be mentioned/promoted on the forums...

It's nice to believe that the devs are perfect people who can be totally impartial in judgement, but do you really believe that identical arcs from little Jimmy Euroboy and one of the well-known US forum posters would get treated exactly the same?



* You will be able to run your characters through your missions on your own computer before uploading them
Great! How do I get my team onto my computer. What if my only characters high enough to test my work-in-progress are my pure empath and stone tank... they'd give a very unbalanced idea of soloability, but good story/content-writing shouldn't be hampered by an inability to test properly.

Be much better if they can figure a way to allow an invite-only test to let teams and other (non-author) ATs test the work before it gets general release.

And yes - I know I've argued that 'private' content may not be in the best interests of everyone. But when I argued that I did argue for limited private access for testing, just not permanently available.

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PS:Another problem will team face is on higher levels (after Sister Psyche) you can't reach the upper cap of that TF. If i recall correctly for Citadel you get 2 levels and after Numina a TF run equals one level.

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Don't think that's quite right if you're all lowest level when you start - the signature hero TFs for TFC (Posi, Synapse, Citadel, Sis P, Manti & Numina) all set at max level (with a rep modifier) so you can be pulling in good xp.

Pretty sure that even after Numina you can usually get at least a level and a half from a full-length TF (i.e. maybe not Katie/Hess/Moonfire) if you're a few levels below the mobs you face. If the team is gelling well, then going for a higher rep than heroic can help as well and no-one stated that you can't help out a single hero twice...

And I wouldn't worry too much about too many people needing leadership - get a couple of characters and at least 1 defender and you should be fine... more people with leadership can help but there's no point dictating too much to a team!

BTW - if I'm available I'd love to join you on this... I tried the Omega Sector challenge and have wondered since whether it's worth trying another nearly-pure TF/trial character...

'nearly pure' as obviously you need to get to lvl 10 before posi and a few utility arcs (e.g. the safeguards and the striga wedding band) can be worth taking.

gratz... though I think it'll get harder!

iirc various AT-specific modifiers (such as dmg) only kick in at level 10+, so a lvl 2 defender or troller hits as hard as a level 2 anything. I can imagine brawl getting slightly tedious when you know it's not even the best a 1-slotted brawl could be.

Again: Good luck to you!

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But I love typos and bad spelling so much I created a disgruntled mad english professor villain called cAptia nTyop on Defiant

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Aha! My hero, Captain Pedant, has just found his arch-enemy!

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S o tahts whree yuo've been hiidng ePdant!

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psml!

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how is passing yourself off as a giant monster serious ?

lol

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If you pass yourself off as a Giant Monster in a PvP zone and someone kills you there's a danger that they players will notice that they received a noticeable reward...

...before long the devs are inundated with demands for all GMs to be changed to closer meet some arbitrary risk:reward balance. NC, understandably, takes this very seriously.

Do we know if any of the people to succesfully do it managed it without any real PL'ing?

i.e. did they do it only playing missions within a handful of levels of their combat level rather than going from 1 to 50 purely in PI attached (in a way some unkind souls might describe as leech-like) to a willing 46+.

Heart_Attack wrote:
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I can't think of many alts I have that after about lvl 25 have at least one combat power available at all times even during a major fight and when teaming the action rarely stops as even sypport alts have somehing they should be don't.

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Though I don't think sprawler explicitly says that this happens all the time or even a lot of the time. Just that he finds it boring when it does happen...

I've seen this happen a few times when big teams get hit by masses of slows (the nictus council powers for one iirc) - and any character can feel like a granite tank waiting for recharge, a passing kin or the heat death of the multiverse (with it being anyone's guess which will come first).

It's an outside interpretation (read 'wrong') but I even wonder if he's talking about PvP when he talks about 'you and your enemy'. Even slowed I've rarely seen both PCs and mobs waiting on power recharges... but I have seen PvP duels grind out so both parties are waiting for endurance to be able to fire off a power. Not quite the same, but similar...

Sprawler wrote:
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What hits me as "Boring" is when both you and your enemy have both used all their attacks and are now waiting for recharges. It feels awkward, dull and stalls the otherwise fluidity of combat. That's what I like about WoW, and the upcoming Champions Online is that there's an attack that is ALWAYS up and keeps the fluid action going. Brawl just doesn't cut it for me... it's hardly useful in any way, especially at higher levels.

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I just love the way that Sprawler definitely knows that Champions Online will deliver on it's fluid combat and that there'll be an attack that is ALWAYS up.

Given that brawl doesn't do it for him I guess he's already sure that CO will provide an ALWAYS up power that will be to his liking.


btw I'm assuming Sprawler is male for simpler English...

Can't remember who it was but there was a forum thread last year with someone (a longstanding forum regular iirc) planning on doing the same.

Remember seeing their regular updates saying that they'd got to 10+... might be worth seeing if you can find their thread. Good luck with it.

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little onions of Seth ? shallots of evil ?

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A Biblical foe? Created after Moses received the instruction thou shallot kill.

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I think you'll find he means lethal weapons. WWs lassoo and Daredevils billy club dont quite fit the bill.

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Pretty sure that a billy club can be lethal - though maybe has never been used to kill by DDs hand. But then many more-apparently lethal weapons can be used in non-lethal ways.


Goes to consider fighting crime by parking chieftan tanks on wrong-doers left feet...

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any zone beginning with a C is called Croatia.

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Gadzooks it gets worse! Now we're building our own battle-torn Eastern European zones...

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Am i the first one to think, "Hmmm i can create my own farm map" !!

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If by first you mean "almost 6 months later" then sure

Been there. Had the flamewar

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Bit longer ago than that see DIY missions

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And longer than that... note that my post in that thread stated that I'd contributed a fair bit to a thread on this several months before yours. My search fu was weak then, so I'm not even going to try finding it now!

I'd guess that some people have wondered about PCC since about a day after seeing their 1st MMO...

Today I learnt that:

* Many people don't seem to understand that information can be realised in several small segments rather than as a complete, exhaustive package.

* The (game) world ends when players get things that they want, get things that they don't want or get things that they aren't sure about - something to do with branching missions?

* I'd been mistyping Chimchimineechimchimineechimchimcheroo as Cimerora for ages.

* No-one is ever happy unless they are moaning... so obviously more brits here than I realised

Thank you forums.