Johnny_Butane
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Posts
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Joined
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I think the problem is too much red side content focuses on villains fighting Arachnos and not enough blue side content focuses on heroes fighting Arachnos.
Seriously in nearly eight years it's been, what, just the tail end of Faultline, the STF and a bit of the revamped Atlas Park content? Scanner missions if you count them.
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Keep in mind, I made my constructive list, I feel I've earned some rant time.
I'm just going to go point form to state some of my feelings what the thread seems to be dealing with in the last few pages. I'm doing it this way because the bugged forum log in has eaten my post twice now.
-I don't personally feel CoH is the best comic book superhero game it could be. It's a little on a generic side and lacks the focus of a strong 'vision'. I feel it doesn't cover some important superhero-ey fundamentals and it should. I also feel those should take priority.
-Thor and Dr. Strange may be examples of fantasy in the superhero genre, but they were heavily adapted to work within a the superhero setting. Nowhere in myth will you find Donald Blake. Thor fought radiation mutants just as often as he battled frost giants. If you look at Avengers Earth's Mightiest Heroes as an example, they went to Asgard as part of a multi-part episode, but they didn't spend a whole season there, and every second episode wasn't 'The Thor Show'. The key is treating each special corner of the universe as just that; one corner. The mainstay was guys in tights fighting crime/aliens/robots in the modern world.
-With that said, I think CoH leans on the magic angle a little too often. Say what you will, but the Well and the entirely of Incarnates is magic. Magic origin used to be defied at character creation in part as "being empowered by extra-dimensional entities". Is that not the situation with the Well in a nutshell?
-I think First Ward did it right. You had some magic elements tempered with guys in power armor, some very non-mystical 'ghosts' and some legitimate ghosts thrown in for good measure.
-I think Croatoa got it wrong. My heroes feel like they're intruding on another game that just happens to have a few modern building models used instead of a village. Worse, and this has nothing to do with the topic at hand, you don't accomplish anything the entire time you're there. No grand scheme thwarted, no barrier between this world and the spirit world repaired. Place is still full of ghosts and witches. You just kind of go there, fight a bunch of nameless fantasy enemies, maintain the status-quo and then walk away.
-I don't think the game being a catch-all for every single genre is a strength, and doesn't make this a better superhero game. If you want an 'anything-goes' online game, what about Second Life? Also, to say superheroes are all inclusive is to demonstrate you don't respect or recognize them as a genre at all.
-I realize most people play this game not because they even like superheroes or comic books. They're just here for a casual-friendly MMO with a flexible character creator. And that saddens me those people seem to be the majority in my observation.
-I don't care for the fact people try to inject/project other properties/universes into this one. This is not WoW, may Rao deliver me from the flood of Night Elves I see every time a new weapon set comes out. Nor is this the World of Darkness. I mean, come on, the very notion of the Masquerade being needed becomes moot when two of the most famous people in the world are known to be nearly 120 years old, one person in six can fly and we can clone all the blood to satisfy the special needs every Undead American could ever require.
-I tolerate that is how some people want to play. But tolerance is not the same as approving or condoning.
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I will likely go the solo route even though it's likely to be significantly less rewarding for one very simple reason:
I do not like to fail because of the actions of strangers.
If I can't be with a force of people I know are competent (which is seldom because there are low odds at getting enough people off my friends lift to fill a whole League who are in the mood to run Trials and are also online at that moment), then I will gladly accept the solo path when it becomes available.
To me, solo path is 'a bird in the hand', while UG, TPN and MoM may as well be an orchard with an army of hillbillies screaming at the top of their lungs and blindly thrashing at each bush with clubs.
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I was thinking back to the Freedom Phalanx novel.
Aside from a bunch of super heroes/villains that got briefly mentioned (that may or may not even be officially canon) Statesman named dropped a few locations he'd been to over the years.
One was that there was an actual realm of Hades that he'd visited and met the Sisyphus of myth.
In the book, after his wife died he planned to get away from Paragon City, seriously considering retiring to become a hermit on Elephant Island Antarctica.
Another location he considered was the distant planet something or other that had a searing atmosphere. I don't remember the name but I'd like to stick it on the list. My copy of the book is presently in storage, so if anyone remember or could look it up, thatds be awesome.
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Quote:The world 'entitlement' gets tossed around a lot these days, but every super strength character deserves to throw down with a T-Rex.Originally Posted by Dr_MechanoEU
Otherwise fine with all of Johnny's suggestions too, mmm dinosaur island.
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Quote:Let's generate a list.Originally Posted by Xanatos
My own opinion is that there are a lot of tropes specific to classic comic-book style superheroes that just aren't in the game. Yes the spandex costume options are looking dated (the patterns and masks especially,) but that really is only the tip of the iceberg. It's not just the costumes: What about the zones? Where are the fights in space? On the moon? Under the sea? In Atlantis? In Dr. Doom's castle? In The Joker's carnival? In Gotham?
Break it down to "superhero-ish" locations, abilities, npc/enemy groups and costume bits.
Then after that, if we can without a massive fight, perhaps prioritize them by how iconic they are?
Locations:
-Space/the Moon
-Other planets
-Under sea bases
-Atlantis
-Abandoned carnival/amusement park
-Dinosaur island
Abilities/systems:
-Stretching/morphing limbs
-Grappling hooks/swinging
-Environmental destruction and interaction
-Super speed feats (aside from just running fast and useless Flurry/Whirlwind. I feel this can stand on its own as a power set)
-Totemic animal powers
-Insect control
-Animal control
-Secret identities
-Chest and eye blasts for ranged power sets, not just hand blasts.
-Hoverboards inspired by the modern comic era.
NPC/enemy groups:
-Talking apes
-Giant bugs
-Dinosaurs
Costume bits and emotes:
-Real eye masks, not painted on.
-Symbol options on belt buckles, backs, and capes, not just on chests.
-More bracelets, arm bands.
-More "floaty bit auras", like crystal shards, or metallic spheres, or sea-horses, or cubes, floating around your character.
-Working holsters, quivers, sheaths (hip, thigh, boot).
-Sleeker, more sophisticated power armor.
-Linked costume emotes with animated transitions (hoods pulled back, helmets removed/opened, power armor assembled over body).
-Customizable "Mood" stances to replace default standing idle stances, more reflective of your character's personality (heroic, flirty, arrogant, relaxed, studious).
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Quote:That's crazy talk. Didn't you know superheroes don't have their own style, tropes and conventions?Originally Posted by Xanatos
Superheroes are kinda big in Hollywood right now.
There's so much more superhero stuff that could be added to this game. Costumes alone: golden/silver/bronze age costume packs would be dope. Maybe even a 90s pack full of stubble, long hair/ridiculous mullets, pouches, imaginary muscles, and invisible feet. (Okay maybe not a 90s pack...)
But yeah. Anime...yawn. Mythology...yawn. Tron...yawn. Traditional MMO styles...yawn. Fedoras...yawn.
Let's get some superhero ish up in this bish!
They're just a catch-all of everything anime, scifi, steampunk, cowboy and fantasy.
And CoH is hardly a superhero game. If it was, it wouldn't be based on mechanics designed for the fantasy genre, like the Trinity.
We need MORE medieval weapon power sets.
MORE "super powers" that I could buy out of the car trunk of some guy named Tyrone who parks out by the airport, like dual pistols.
MORE variations on black dusters, pointy neon armor like Celestial and Ascended.
Absolutely do NOT allow us to pick up and throw cars, punch people through walls, cause property damage or go on patrol for anything other than gray con enemies.
Work on anything BUT those things, please, especially more swords and sword variations.
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Quote:No, the point is I don't think it's fair to strictly balance a Tanker's damage against increased survivability when solo having less than that level of survivability is clearly not much of a handicap for Brutes and Scrappers. The developers have flat out said Scrappers and Brutes are the best soloing ATs in the game and on teams they receive buff and heal support that keeps them just as upright. Not every team has a ton off buffs, but Scrappers and Brutes don't NEED a ton of buffs to perform just fine the vast majority of the time. As long as you can throw purple inspirations at a Brute or Scrapper, the point stands. You yourself just admitted Scrappers and Brutes aren't dropping like flies, so you can't deny it.Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
The point is that it's not fair to compare a Brute with an entire League of allies as well as Incarnate buffs & Inspirations to advocate more damage for Tankers without actually looking at the base for either AT.
When Brutes are still above the immortality line for the 95% of the game's content that's not the STF or i-Trials, that's not much of a drawback, is it? I don't think it's fair to suffer a huge damage hit just because Tankers line is set to 98% of the game.
Tankers may have a sizable theoretical survivability edge, but how often that actually matters in the game is much much less. And the more survivable Brutes are Scrappers are allowed to get, with IOs and Incarnate system, the less the Tankers survivability edge matters. Even if Tanker survivability grows an equal amount, there are diminishing returns to the benefits increasing levels of survivability brings; once you can survive a situation, more survivability than that is redundant.
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Quote:Apparently the toughest Brute ever built, because to listen to some people, Brutes are dropping like flies all the time.Originally Posted by Ultimus
What kind of brute do you have?
I have an Incarnate SS/Inv, a mid level StJ/Fire, an Elec/EA and a baby TW/WP.
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Quote:I tend to look at it like this.Originally Posted by Ultimus
I agree with you to an extent on this -- People tend to look at the max and not the actual gameplay.
Not every team has sonics/fire shields. Also the little amount of Psionic resistance provided from team buffs. Off the top of my head, I cannot think of any?
When I'm running my Brute solo and hit a rough patch, I pop a purple inspiration or two and I'm laughing. Or a green or an orange for that matter. I don't suffer any damage penalty of any kind and I don't faceplant.
When I'm running my Brute on a team or league, I'm buffed, healed, still have access to inspirations, and I'm still not faceplanting 96% of the time. And if I'm with a Kin or some Leadership buffs, I'm outputting sick damage. And I know that no matter what new Incarnate powers or IOs are coming down the line, I'm only going to get better offensively and defensively. I feel like, comparatively speaking, the sky is the limit for this character.
When I'm running my Tanker solo, I don't faceplant either. But I'd have to mainline reds for the whole mission to perform as well as the Brute.
When I'm running my Tanker on a team, I'm not faceplanting 98% of the time. I'm not dealing sick damage. I'm against the damage cap with one decent Kin or some Leadership buffs. And I feel like unless an Incarnate ability or IO set arrives that alters damage caps, I'm not really ever going to deal sick damage and probably not even get much better and pushing 98% survivability to 99% is pretty hollow in light of that. I feel like this character has no real future or growth potential in any way I'd want to take them.
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Quote:They really shouldn't have put them under the 'Tank' category at character creation then.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
So why specifically peacebringers or brutes should be normalized as "tanking classes" and not, say, scrappers or VEATs, would likely appear arbitrary to the devs.
Granted, the Tank category would otherwise be pretty empty with just the one AT listed.
And I would have thrown a conniption had they the gall to put Tankers under 'Melee Damage' in their current condition.
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Quote:http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MauveShirtOriginally Posted by Agent White
Shilling only applies when it's praise and admiration. So far they've only been referred to as "Additional back up". And it's hard to call them Wesleys when Villainside gets to mop the floor with them.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph.../AscendedExtra
^---What Dillo should be.
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I realize this is just a 'what if' thread, but...
I think people need to keep their eyes on the prize.
Any idea to improve Tankers has to be simple and easy to implement if you expect it to ever happen.
Streamlining all the tanking ATs, along with many suggestions in the consolidated sticky thread, is just not that feasible. Complex mechanics and multiple powers probably doom any idea from the get go. Anything that requires bringing in other departments (art, animation) is another sure killer.
I'm saying this here, rather than the consolidated thread, in order to keep the clutter out.
As an aside, there are currently three active (or at least semi-active) threads about improving Tankers, the most activity this forum has gotten in a long time aside from people schlepping builds. I'm happy to see some discussion happening again.
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This has been asked several times now.
No.
Only the target gets Bruising applied.
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Quote:Why would anyone lay out flamebait in their own consolidated thread for improvements which I presume they don't want derailed into oblivion?Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
It negatively impacts survivability that we already have too much of, according to you?
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Quote:I agree.Originally Posted by Diellan_
The different powersets all have different issues, so it's very hard to come up with a single buff that's equally beneficial across the board, and won't just be "yes, Shields is even better now, sorry Electric". Even if you stick to enhancement bonuses, that won't help SR much since his only enhanceable trait is Defense, and it has enough of that by endgame.
This is why I'm against touching the aggro cap. It negatively impacts survivability and causes too many problems.
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Quote:Understood. Your wording threw me.Originally Posted by mauk2
This is a global endurance reduction enhancement, similar to but weaker than Conserve Power.
Right. I see what you're saying now, but I'm not sure they can do this on the fly.Quote:Right, and this debuff would affect both, because it's an enhancement bonus. It's like removing 30 percents worth of the slotting in your powers. Yes, that number may need to be run through the Schedule for defense powers, but that's a simple conversion, assuming it's needed at all.
It's intended as a tradeoff, less precise control for more damage, but has the side effect of making things look more awesome. Plus it's thematic with the Tanker 'throwing caution to the wind'.Quote:(shudder) I'll never suggest any such thing, although it might look kewl.
Nope, you're not selling me on this aspect. I'm still against it. I can see the new complaint for teaming Tankers going from "Don't bring more than one Tanker they're redundant" to "Don't bring any Tankers because they'll aggro half the map and then leave you hanging 30 seconds later when the cap drops."Quote:That is exactly what happens, and is as it should be. If you want to avoid this, work like the dickens for perma-guarded and be fast on the button. The tanker doesn't get any better of a deal from this than a controller does who has holds that expire.
Also, keep in mind you're potentially doubling the damage AND debuffs the Tanker is exposed to by doubling the aggro cap, maybe to enemies the Tanker is already not so strong against. What kind of logic is it to click a power named Guarded and start faceplanting?
Ok, I just woke up, but I'm going to throw an idea out there and I'm still too sleepy to tell if it's good or not or what problems it would have.Quote:I strongly feel that Tankers need a way to handle more aggro, to compete with heavy pet users and multi-spawn locking controllers. YMMV. 
As a separate addition to Tankers, give them an invisible, unkillable pseudopet that AoE taunts enemies that is always on. This pet follows the Tanker around and has a weaker taunt so they'd only start pulling aggro themselves once the Tanker hits his 17 cap and there are no other taunters around. This effectively increases the Tanker's aggro cap, can always be on and doesn't impact Tanker survivability as much as just upping the Tanker's aggro cap would because they'd only be getting hit with the extra AoE past 17 enemies and the extra ST damage would be getting 'eaten'.
Right, but this is for visual flair. Imagine playing the Psychic Wail animation and giving a hearty battle shout when you click Guarded, essentially saying "come at me, bro!"Quote:Guarded mode as presented gives Threat modifier 5 and +100 percent taunt duration enhancement mod. That should EASILY achieve this result.
Right, but my point was, using Invul as an example, that not all sets mitigate all forms of damage via Def or Res. Invul happens to rely on +HP and the long period heal. And the Rengeration set, in theory, would be...well, Regeneration. If you're lowering damage to offset the increase survivability and aggro generation, you better actually be improving that survivability in all reasonable situations, and against Psi enemies that wouldn't be so for the Invul.Quote:The psi hole is very deliberately preserved, as is toxic weakness, etc. The damage penalty is to balance out the vast increase in threat and aggro generation, and the comprehensive, low level status effect protection.
30 percent global heal enhancement buff really doesn't help in that situation because DP and accolades already put Invul at the HP cap, and they're really not going to get anything substantial out of Fitness Health.
How about instead of the 30 percent global heal enhancement buff, a straight +Regen and +Def(all) buff when in Guarded? Say, 200% and 10% respectively? Remember, you're exposing the Tanker to potentially TWICE the damage and debuffs. If you weren't upping the aggro cap, this wouldn't be called for.
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Quote:He should clarify, because the words mean the opposite to me.Originally Posted by boppaholic
I think you misunderstood what the reduction means in "endurance reduction". It means the endurance costs to all of the tanker's powers is reduced by 50%, making it cost less endurance. Same way energize, conserve power or Cardiac alpha reduces global endurance cost.
"50 percent global endurance enhancement reduction"
Should instead be:
"50 percent global endurance discount"
or
"50 percent buff to global endurance reduction"
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Quote:My thoughts:Originally Posted by mauk2
Clicking Onslaught raises the damage cap by 100 percent, adds a 50 percent global damage enhancement boost, a 50 percent global recharge enhancement, and 50 percent global endurance enhancement reduction. It also lowers all defense and resist powers by a global 30 percent enhancement penalty. When required, the Tanker can attack with greatly improved strength by throwing caution to the winds. (Note, as global enhancement boosts, these are unaffected by ED.)
-"50 percent global endurance enhancement reduction"
This endurance penalty is not needed and is only exacerbated by the global recharge enhancement, which is going to cause you to burn more endurance anyways. And, at 50%, aren't you essentially proposing that your attacks AND toggles (offensive or not) would burn twice as much endurance per activation but you will not be doing twice as much damage per activation?
ON TOP of the other penalties, only a sucker would make that trade.
-"It also lowers all defense and resist powers by a global 30 percent enhancement penalty."
Resistance and Defense debuffs do not play well together and we usually don't consider Defense to be equal to the same value of Resistance. The 2%:1% ratio is the accepted conversion rate. Also, this affects some sets much more than others. I don't know how to begin to approach constructing a defensive penalty that is 'fair' to all defensive sets, but I'd suspect it would have to include penalties to HP and Regeneration values as well.
My suggestions:
-Remove the endurance penalty.
-Add a global buff to Knock Back/Up. It helps offset the damage buff somewhat, and makes the attacks it affects look more awesome.
-Change the Defense/Resistance Penalty to something that's more 'fair' to all existing defensive sets.
My thoughts:Quote:Clicking Guarded lowers the damage cap by 100 percent and lowers damage by a global 50 percent. It raises the Tankers Threat rating to 5, increases taunt durations by a global 100 percent, adds a global 50 percent enhancement to all defense and resist powers, doubles the Tankers aggro cap, and adds a mag 6 global status effect defense. When required, the Tanker can use their 'battle smarts' to overawe, out-maneuver, and confound the enemies advances.
-What happens when your 'doubled aggro cap' drops back down when this click runs out? The (up to) 17 guys you suddenly can't hold the attention of turn their sights on your teammates?
I don't want to gamble on my team being able to drop 17-34 enemies in under 30 seconds.
My suggestions:
-Remove the aggro cap modification.
-Add a large radius, PBAoE Taunt upon activation of the power, potent enough to yank the aggro off of anything.
-Add a +HP/+Max HP component and lower the Def and Res buffs a bit to compensate. Just enough to help cover some holes in some defensive sets. For example, buffing the Def and Res of Invul will not help them against Psi enemies, but the power will penalize their damage output anyways. Nor would buffing Def and Res powers help a theoretical Regen Tanker very much, assuming they get proliferated some day.
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Yes, only on the target.
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Quote:Could be.Originally Posted by TheDeepBlue
Record scratch, full stop, double take. What?
Is this another one of those things like that article regarding the other avatars of Rulaaru, that somehow appeared on ParagonWiki one day, but was never seen anywhere before somehow?
Captain Volcano and Lord of Frosts have been part of the in-game timeline for a while as I can best recall. Just footnotes in the history of WW2. They're here:
http://na.cityofheroes.com/en/game_i..._continued.php
Beyond that? Why would anyone implicitly trust an open wiki?
Doesn't really matter who came up with the idea. In fact, Positron said that most of the lore on some things is just one or two sentences one person jotted down and forgot about. So they're not slaves to it. They've even changed some of the lore in game a couple of times to suit popular opinion.
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Quote:That is exactly what caused me to remember the Summer Lord and look him up again.Originally Posted by Mandu
I'm mister green Christmas.
I'm mister sun.
I'm mister heat blister.
I'm mister hundred and one.
They call me Summer Lord.
Whatever I touch
Starts to melt in my clutch.
I'm too much.
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Quote:One way I tried gave 480% (or rather 479.XXXXX IIRC). Another way came up with 508%.Originally Posted by Captain_Aegis
more damage); I believe Johnny suggested 440% as a round figure (I haven't checked the maths myself)
Nobody with better math really commented.
I personally don't have an issue with increasing Tanker attack threat so they can pull from Brutes easier, so long as the aggro cap remains the same. But, if it negatively affects Brutes on teams because they can't generate Fury, it's just going to lead to them being buffed. Again.Quote:how much agreement is there on the following two suggestions:
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Quote:Turn Tankers into Paladins?Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I think they should be able to cast a couple of powers like Cold shields, Thermal shields, Fortitude, Resurrection, Clear Mind, etc.
No thanks.
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Quote:I don't see why this would be a problem if Tankers got comparable damage potential to Brutes in the same way.
*) Brutes can hit Tanker survivability numbers. (Some easier than others, be it builds, teams, etc.) This is progressively getting easier. Err...
Again, I don't see this as a problem as long as the enemy is not on the squishies. A Tanker using Taunt still trumps a Brute that isn't, right? Well, if Brutes chose to pull aggro into themselves in that way, that's their call. They do put it to use for Fury, after all.Quote:*) Brutes generate more threat than a Tanker. Wait, what?
There's a crud sandwich and Brutes need to take a big bite in terms of a nerf.Quote:Do you see where I'm going with this? I can't help but feel like something has to give. What's worse is I can't say that Tankers are underpowered. They're very tough and forgivable when solo, so Tankers don't have to deal with much debt. They don't have any finicky prerequisites to deal damage like squishies (Defenders/Controllers/Corruptors) do. They don't have to deal with status effects. They have a (non-stacking...) force multiplier. They really aren't bad... but they're (one of) the easiest to render redundant, especially at end game.
But realistically, Brutes outnumber Tankers and last time a dev tried to adjust them, it got ugly and if this thread has shown anything, the majority of Tankers are mostly content.*
"Something has to give" you say? Well that something has been Tankers and I can't see that changing. I don't honestly think much will come of the chat Synapse did or didn't have yet about Tankers because in truth the source of the problem isn't with them.
*I've never cared much about what 'the majority' thinks at any given time. For the longest time the majority thought the Earth was the center of the universe, sickness was caused by humour imbalances and that more pouches and buckles make a better super hero costume.
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