Johnny_Butane
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Posts
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Joined
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Quote:And yet I see you in the Tanker sub forum all the time.Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I'm not interested in playing a gimped character. I come to this game for the empowerment fantasy
In all seriousness, the ritual process is the same, every time. I happened to get it right the first time, and it's almost a logical process in hindsight. I'm sure the step by step is here on the forums somewhere.
So do it properly and you won't get the debuff.
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Quote:You said "me" meaning you. The correct answer was me.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Its always a good thing when its me, and never a good thing when its somebody else.
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Quote:Maybe it's not always a bad thing to have someone with absolute power and a strong sense of vision.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
In other words, this is the classic example of a change that would get stuck in committee.
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Quote:If people want this to happen, they need to make it known to the devs. Get it in their face at the Pummit. They keep boasting about how much a success Freedom was, they can put some of that money back into giving players some more freedom in character building. And they will, if people bug them enough about it.Originally Posted by Leo_G
I agree. Your suggestion would be nice but won't happen (at least in the near future). If we got such attention, AT pools and some themed PPPs for later would be better, IMO.
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I give the new shoes a thumbs up.
That's all I can give it, seeing as how we don't have fingers on our hands, only inhuman flipper-like nubs.
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Quote:Positron said there could be a delay between the end of Who Will Die? Part 7 and the first part of the next SSA.Originally Posted by terrible_deli
Though, I could have sworn I read somewhere the next episode was going to be delayed. Or maybe I'm thinking of the time between Episode 6 and 7.
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Quote:Except, Blasters can get Holds and Immobs and Sleeps now, and it doesn't put out Controllers of the same level. They can also get basic shields like Temporary Invulnerability and Fire Shield. They can even get a few debuffs.Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Anyway, I will throw it out there that even though I understand why it wasn't done at the time, in retrospect its IMO extremely unfortunate that Corruptors were not made Assault/Support instead of Blast/Support to limit direct overlap with Defenders. Direct overlap wherein one character type completely and directly overshadows another is IMO problematic, and that sort of thing would happen a LOT in a system like what you're suggesting (e.g. "Why play a Controller, when I get almost the same thing with better values if I start with a Blaster and take these app powers..." And so on.)
And Scrappers can get both Nemesis Staff and Blackwand at level 1, and guess what? The world didn't end!
If we go with Rangle's suggested approach of creating more epic pools, we can give players more flavors to choose from of the kinds of powers they can already get, and maybe see about making some of the less potent/disruptive ones available earlier than level 35.
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Quote:And bacon is tasty. What's your point? Nobody is asking for that.Originally Posted by _Pine_
But the NPC characters are just that NON Playable. If they got into player hands, they would need to be rebalanced/nerfed.
You seem to be implying the aim is to give any and all powers to players regardless of the AT. It's been clarified and explained numerous times that's not the case.
Stop trying to strawman.
Or perhaps you're suggesting giving players access to any powers that that don't currently have access too will automatically make them overpowered?
That assertion doesn't hold water. How is a Scrapper getting Dual Wield any worse than a Scrapper getting Fire Blast, when DW does a more resisted damage type and also has worse damage per cast time than FB does?
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Quote:Find the link yourself. There was enough information in the post to find it in literally 5 seconds.Originally Posted by Dark Energon
Until you provide a link, i'll just say your trying to make yourself look good while claiming to have inside knowledge, which you don't.
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Quote:And that is a perfect example of why we need something like what we're discussing.Originally Posted by DragonEye
I approve.
I would love for my (non fire melee) melee dragonman to have breath of fire.
It's not about exactly copying existing characters. I use existing characters as examples because often real comic super heroes and villains do not fit within the rigid confines the current system allows.
And _Pine_ overlooks that even most of the Freedom Phalanx, heck most of NPC characters in the game, are strong homages to existing characters. Just ask Tony Kord, Peter Kent and Dr. Stephen Fayte.
For THAT matter, most of the NPC characters don't fit within the confines of the current powers system either.
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Quote:First, unlike some people, I'm able to separate the message from the messenger. I didn't even look at the name or the icon attached to the post. I just plain don't think the idea is very good.Originally Posted by Sylph_Knight
And since when have you and I ever agreed on anything?
I could promise you a turd made out of solid gold and you'd still complain that it's a pile of crap.
Second, really, who would want a turd-shaped anything, no matter what it was made of? "That's a fine golden dog log on your mantle, Mr. Butane."
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Quote:I think this is another problem separate from Tankers entirely. Read: the devs overusing and abusing unresisted damage. It's something that needs to be addressed in mission design and isn't a problem with Tankers.Originally Posted by Sylph_Knight
Addendum:
Giving Tankers the ability to resist non-resistable damage would have been a VITAL capability during the pre-patched Keyes Reactor Trial, and is still undoubtedly useful, since tanking while simultaneously surviving a bombardment of heavy, unavoidable damage in an environment filled with enemies that have -Def and, more importantly -Regen, is a serious chore and does not feel challenging to the player so much as feeling cheap-shotted.
As for your suggestion, I wouldn't sign off on it.
Firstly, I don't think Tankers should be any better at mowing down minions and LTs, or allowing them to be mowed down.
Second, it has been my experience that even on teams without a lot of AoE, the minions all die before the Bosses do anyways.
Third, as for your thematic justification, it runs opposite to how things are. The bad guys pretty much never just give up to Superman. Even if he just crashed through a wall and took out their boss in one punch. Time and time again they'll empty their guns into him harmlessly and then throw the gun at him.
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Quote:Rangle M. Down pretty much said that, and I said I'd probably be down with an approach like that, provided they also lowered the levels so you're not waiting until level 35 for your Sonic attack, in that example.Originally Posted by Vox Populi
Just add more Epic Pools, that way the powers can be balanced with each AT in mind. With the Black Canary example, that would be a Scrapper with a Sonic Epic Pool.
A Power Pool revamp I'd like to see it simplifying them down to two tiers: the first three powers avaiable at level 4 (35 for Epic/Patron), once you take one of those the other two powers become available at level 14 (44 for Epic/Patron). This would be mean less taking powers you don't want to get powers you do- skip the filler, get to the fun stuff!
Yup, and certainly, as time went on, they could gradually add more powers, or not, as they saw how things were going.Quote:This would also mean the rest of the pools need a fifth power.
More pools would always be in demand as new sets came, as Blasters may want some basic Staff attacks for instance.
But to start, they should cover the major themes for each AT's epics: Guns, Swords, Ice, Fire, Electricity, Radiation, Psionics, Energy, Unarmed Fighting, Gadgets etc. Many ATs have some of these already, obviously.
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Quote:Arcana, nobody can casually crush dreams while leaving an agonizing sliver of possibility quite like you can.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
In principle, it could be done, it might even be a good idea if it was done, but I think you're underestimating the balance significant issues that crop up, at least as the devs see balance.
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Quote:AFAIK, powers don't automatically "get Containment". Like Criticals and Gauntlet, it's something they added specifically to Controller attacks, and likely had to add again when they ported attacks to Controller epics.Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
controllers getting aoe attacks that benefit from containment is game breaking.
In other words, if they made an AoE available to controllers, it wouldn't nessisarily have "Containment" active on it.
But that's a moot point, because no where did I suggest that they'd have to give anyone more AoEs. I specifically said "basic" attacks and powers, and I said that more more potent ones should be left in the AT-Specific Epics (although I suggested some of them could be made available earlier).
This is a clear strawman. Giving a Scrapper Fire Blast at level 10 would not make them overpowered. The developers are smart enough to know who can get what and when without being too over powered. What is being asked, in essence, is for them to reevaluate those three things to allow for more freedom and flexibility in character creation. The AT and powers system was created years ago, and now they have a greater handle on what does and doesn't make someone OP. Nowadays, with temps and vet powers, Scrappers can get ranged attacks and early, so likely Fire Blast is one of those "whens" then could stand to be a little earlier.Quote:so what you are really asking is, if it is okay to make characters overpowered at level 40, why not sooner?
You kind of help my point. A medium damage, ranged attack like Dual Fire, Fire Blast, Scream, etc probably isn't going to make anyone OP or give them a huge mechanical advantage. So if you agree more options are better then fewer, and people should be reasonably be allowed to realize the character they want to create, keeping people from them doesn't make a lot of sense.Quote:If you have mostly melee attacks, having several ranged attacks doesn't do anything for you, and vice versa.
scrappers don't want a ranged attack, they want a big AoE - ranged or not.
Again, you prove my point. This is about thematics, not performance. Giving a Defender, say, Energy Punch, probably isn't doing much for them performance-wise, but if someone wants it for theme, who are the devs to deny them it?Quote:As for melee attacks - you can already get air superiority, punch, kick, and a few others from power pools. If you want them for thematic reasons - they are there. Few take them, because they are only useful for thematic reasons.
And again, you help illustrate my point. Crabs and SoAs are a VERY SPECIFIC theme. This isn't about players wanting any old mix of ranged an melee attacks; they want "guns and swords" or "fist fighting and psionics" etc.Quote:Now if you want more varied AT's - sets with defense powersets and ranged powersets type of thing - then you should look at SoA's. A crab has team buffs, massive aoe, defenses, and mezz defense. If that is not game breaking then you should be able to have an AT that has blaster ranged attacks and scrapper defenses.
This is about theme and concept, and giving players as much freedom as possible to realize theirs(even if its performance is sub-optimal), just as long as it's not overpowering and game breaking.
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I'm not sure what you're asking.
Quote:Both.Originally Posted by Leo_G
That said, do you think you can clarify what it is I'm reading here? Are you A.)suggesting to revamp the whole system just to get more options sooner? B.)Or more 'signature' abilities that'd make one MA/SR scrapper unique from another MA/SR scrapper?
I ask myself two questions:
1. We allow a Blaster to get Temporary Invulnerability at level 41, and allow a Tanker to get Fire Blast also at 41. Would it really break the game if they didn't have to wait so long?
After all, we allow Blasters and Tankers temp powers that do almost the same things as those two powers mechanically/balance speaking, at lower levels than 41, and the powers team is fine with that. So what warrants making players wait until the late 30's and 40's to get those powers?
2. If we allow a Scrapper to get Fire Ball at all, why not Bullet Rain? Or any other equal or inferior Targeted AoE of any conceptual flavor a player could want?
It's the same issues as when people with a "speedster" concept for a character had to wait 14 levels just to be speedy, and why we just had to have a set with two swords when we already had a number of bladed weapons sets.
It's about allowing players to reasonably realize their concepts better than they can now and without waiting 40 levels. If your concept is a sword swinging detective with nascent pyrokinetic abilities, why should you have to wait 35 levels just to get Fire Blast when there may not even be any real balance reasons why you can't have a ranged attack in your teen levels? I suspect there aren't because we're allowed all kinds ranged attacks even earlier. Dig?
Does this answer your question? Because I'm not sure I understand it.
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Quote:That's still pretty high of a level to start. To keep running with the example of Black Canary, her sonics aren't something she discovered after a long time of heroing. It's something that's very important to her character and it's become her trademark.Originally Posted by Dr Harmony
The question is, which level to open these pools?
24 seems a good choice, you dont unlock anything else then and players are still picking through their primary and secondary. Let the Tier 2 and 3 unlock at 30 and 35 maybe?
For Tier 2 ranged attacks, like I said I think levels 10-12 isn't game breaking. You get arguably more potent temp and vet ranged powers by that point.
After all, a level 1 Thug henchman can figure out how to fire two guns at level 1, should it really take a hero/villain 24 levels to pull it off? :P
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Quote:That's another possible approach, one I could get behind depending on execution.Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
I could see something like this incorporated into more Epic Power pools giving greater options then currently exist. (I would think it would make it easier to balance then straight pool powers.) But hey, the more options the merrier we'll all be.
My main beef with the epic pools, as they relate to this, is that they don't kick in until level 35. I honestly don't see the the problem with letting a Scrapper get Laser Beam Eyes, Scream, Dual Wield or Fire Blast at level 10 or 12. Or a Blaster getting Temporary Invulnerability or Body Armor by their 20s.
Some of the epic powers just aren't that good enough (IMO) to warrant making people wait until level 35 or the mid 40's for them, or another way of thinking, wouldn't really be game breaking if they came a lot earlier.
So, if we treated the Epic pools more like true "Tertiary" power sets that factored in over more your character's life, and there were a crapton more of them, that could accomplish the same goals.
But making a bunch more epic pools, expanding on the number of powers in the exiting ones and tailoring them to the specific ATs seems to me like a lot more work to me than what I proposed in the OP.
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Quote:Depends on what AoE's they allow in the pool, if any. Obviously not Blaster T9 nukes.Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Or the ability to have significantly more ranged AoEs, for instance. It makes it tougher to balance the ATs because of all of the additional powers that they could take from these new pools.
In the case of a theoretical "Fire pool", I was thinking of something along the lines of Fire Blast, Fire Breath, Ring of Fire and perhaps Bonfire. The basics; enough to satisfy a concept.
Something like Fire Shield, could remain in "Flame Mastery" as an AT-specific epic pool (to keep it from Melee ATs for example), but perhaps available earlier than 41, like 18-26 or so.
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Ok, this is something I've heard kicked around, but I've never seen anyone post about it.
The devs have said that they'd like to revisit various power pools, so perhaps it's time they got a major overhaul.
There are certain restrictions that come with the AT system that make it hard to emulate many popular comic heroes. Even though powers and attacks similar to theirs are in the game, you can't always combine them on one character, or you can, but only after 40+ levels of playing them.
Examples:
Deadpool: He's got excellent hand to hand skills and swordsmanship, but he also uses guns. Any AT that uses Dual Blades or Dual Pistols is barred from having the other.
Black Canary: Again, primarily a hand to hand fighter, but she's got her trademark sonic attacks.
Iron Man: He's armored, has ranged attacks and some hand to hand.
Or even gadgeteer heroes like Batman, who are melee specialists, but also have a big bag of tricks to reach into.
I'm sure everyone else can think of more examples, of times they were inspired to make a character but had to compromise to work with our current system.
Right now, we lack that kind of flexibility. I feel we don't have to. We could transition to something that has more options, without throwing the AT system out completely or going to an absolutely "open form system" and all the problems that brings.
What I propose, is to revamp the Power Pool system to allow for some more flexibility in the characters we create.
This would start by creating more pools: Flame, Ice, Guns, Melee Weapons, Energy, Armor/Defense etc, that any AT can pick powers from and expanding on the existing pools (Fighting, Medicine, Presence etc).
These pools would contain 'clones' of basic attacks and abilities, that where needed, are weaker than their counterparts in the Primary and Secondary pools. Having the actual attack in your Primary or Secondary, however, would preclude you from getting its pool counterpart. The counterparts would be labeled "Lesser Fire Breath" (or some other means to indicate they're inferior to the Primary or Secondary version), for example, and always be unlocked at a higher level than their Primary or Secondary counterpart.
Also, this would mean retiring/reworking the current "Epic" and Patron pools, perhaps so they still contain the most potent abilities like Hibernate, Force of Nature, etc.
So, as to how this works to the example heroes I used before:
A Martial Arts/Super Reflex Scrapper wishing to emulate Black Canary could go to the Sonic Pool and take "Lesser Scream" at Level 6 and/or "Lesser Shout" at level 18.
A Dual Pistols Blaster could pick up some Dual Blade style attacks from the Melee Weapons pool, or a Dual Blade Scrapper could pick up a couple of Dual Pistol attacks from the Guns power pool and have a workable Deadpool.
Obviously, there are problems and conflicts in doing something like this that would have to be sorted out. It's a major undertaking, to be sure, but it's something I think should happen. We've had changes this big before, stuff some people were sure couldn't happen. ATs no longer being side specific. Power customization. The invention system. Just food for thought.
I've heard muttering on Live and on the beta server that people could get behind such a proposal, so how about it? What do people think of something like this?
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Would be great if the comments didn't show until you voted.
Myself, I like 'B' simply because it looks more versatile and would work for the greatest number of concepts.
On the topic of retro sci fi, how about a speedsuit?
Remember, the crotch should be tailored so that it hangs six inches below the bottom of the natural inseam.
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Quote:That's the premise I've been operating under for the past five years.Originally Posted by Santorican
With enough complaining it can get done. Just complain loud and long enough.
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Quote:Someone wants to make a Roman Centuion-themed character.Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
I don't understand the logic behind the Roman pack.
You go to the character creator and...there are no Roman parts. You have to get your Roman Centurion to level 35 and run the ITF to unlock them. So for the first 35 levels your 'Roman' is walking around with...medieval or Samurai armor.
Now do you get the logic?
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Quote:Baby steps.Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
In addition to some of the others mentioned, I would like to nominate a revived Clockwork King.
Simple enough for him to get his body back, we could even make it an SSA: Crey needs help stepping of their Reverent Hero project and decide the Clockwork King would be easy pickings, first they start by working with Malta and player villains to try to drive a wedge between him and Penelope Yin, heroes have to try to keep the two on more stable grounds, but the wedge still manages to become just enough of a divide that they both blow eachother off for awhile.
Crey swoops in, takes the clockwork king and lock him up and prep him for the Reverent Hero Project. Malta backstabs Crey to try to take the clone, villains take advantage of the confusion to have a technological shopping spree (loot dead malta sappers: get sap stick temp power!) while heroes are just trying to find out what happened to the King.
They find his dying 'body' next to his cloned one, Penny appears, distraught and guilty, but tells you she can transfer his consciousness into the clone, but as she's doing that, ambushes spawn, heroes trash the mooks, fight a boss, the Clockwork King is back, with a new body, and a much more stable mind.
As a gift and since villains would get a King's Standard buttload of temp powers from this, Clockwork King and Penny even things by rewarding heroes with a few temp powers.
Roll credits, we now have a new Phalanx member, and Penny and CK's relationship is now...
Freakier actually, because if my estimates were right, the clockwork king died when he was 14, sixteen at the most and Penny is about 22 now.
No spoilers, but wait and play the SSA after Who Will Die finishes.
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Quote:Those numbers don't resolve with the novel.Originally Posted by Aggelakis
Justin Sinclair (Manticore) was born on 12/12/1968, which makes him 44.
Synapse was born in 1966, Posi in 1962
That would make Synapse 20 in 1986. By that point, Synapse had been employed by Crey as an accountant and subsequently quit after the incident that gave him his powers some years before. There's nothing to suggest he's a genius in this universe, the novel presents him as more of a sports guy, so it's a stretch to think he would be able to finish accounting school and land a job before he was 19.
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