Johnny_Butane
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Posts
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Joined
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Quote:Even when handled with a self granting debuff like Bruising?Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Except that's actually a net damage nerf.
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Quote:I got mine for this year.Originally Posted by Kheldarn
Before the change to Freedom, for every 12 months of Paid Subscribed time that passed, you got a free Character Slot.
With the change to Freedom, is that something that VIPs still get? I'm thinking the answer is no, but I'm not 100% sure...
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Quote:But when Mario only has a top speed 5mph slower than Donkey Kong and way better acceleration than him, that's a problem.Originally Posted by Megajoule
Someone's gotta be "the Ken", "the Mario", "the Human", etc - the character whose tag is that he or she is balanced, average, nothing special. (For one thing, a lot of players - both new and experienced - like such characters precisely because they're so straightforward and gimmick-free.)
Especially when even though Toad has better acceleration than Mario, his handling is so poor he crashes constantly and faceplants despite Defiance.
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Quote:Wasn't it fairly implicit that's where all the magic users and supers that "go overseas" are going? I mean, take them out, their power goes back to the Well.Originally Posted by Golden Girl
That might be Tyrant's ultimate goal - not only would it weaken the resistance to him, it'd also make the people have to genuinely rely on him for protection, and it'd also let him break free of the Well.
Of course, that's contradictory to what was said about power in as recently as Vincent Ross's arc: that power can't be destroyed, only more of it created. If that was true, 'Force Potential' loss wouldn't happen, since it's infinite. Or it'd be only temporary.
But really, at point this Prometheus has had us running around like lackeys, he's held back information, disrespected us, threatened us...it's not far fetched to think he's outright lying to us about this and other things.
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Quote:Because Claws has gone out of his way in the past to troll me constantly, and he gets away with it. He's fired far worse personal insults at me than calling someone foolish. He can't shoot my arguments down, so he ignores them. And quite frankly, I'm getting tired of him and the few others I presume are his buddies that show up to crap on anything I have to say.Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
You all need to chill the name calling out. CHILL OUT!
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Quote:Says the one who ignored the argument about Bruising not being the same as a flat 20% damage boost for Tankers. And the one who ignored the point about Brutes having the same survivability potential as Tankers, but far superior damage potential. And how the Incarnate system and continuing power creep make it ever more relevant that Scrappers and Brutes are becoming functionally immortal in an ever greater percentage of the game's content, but Tankers lag behind just as much for damage, and will do more so, hitting their low damage cap. Or how the developers leverage Tanker damage against increased survivability, but have no problem circumventing that survivability with unresisted damage and cheating mechanics or rendering it superfluous by handing out more survivability to every AT.Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
If you despise being wrong so much that you will outright ignore anything that you can't refute because it destroys your argument, that's on you.
This is why you're a hypocrite.Quote:And the conclusion I reached with all of that is that if the devs decide they are going to balance all 4 melee ATs, then Brute players are going to be REALLY pissed at them.
Probably best to just leave well enough alone at this point.
Your entire argument boils down to: "Let Brutes have their way. They don't have to pay as much for their survivability; screw Tankers, they do."
Not to mention, you started this whole thread because Stalkers got a small, much needed fix that you felt threatened Scrappers (cause Scrappers are totally an endangered AT).
Honestly people, let that sink in for a second.
So you've got no business questioning anyone else's motives or reasoning for wanting AT changes. -
Quote:Yeah, if I were you, I wouldn't bring the popularity of Brutes and Scrappers versus Tankers into this. Granted, the last time they released the numbers was years ago before side swapping, but Brutes and Scrappers were the most popular ATs on their sides and Tankers were the second least popular blue side, just ahead of Defenders.Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
The people that choose to play tanks for tanking do so because they want to play the *role* of tank, which includes being the aggro managing meat shield. Stating that no one out there wants to play the archetype that holds the king of aggro title is a lie.
I can't imagine side swapping, power proliferation and defense softcapping helped Tanker numbers.
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Quote:The developers. Essentially, Prometheus is acting as a mouthpiece for the devs, replying to player complains about stuff like wanting true godlike power, why Mot and Rularuu are the 'real' gods while we get wrecked by TPN rocks and in general why we are Prometheus' lackey.Originally Posted by InfamousBrad
Wait, what organization?
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Quote:Bruising circumvents the purple patch. It always increases the damage an enemy of any con takes by 20%.Originally Posted by Blood Red Arachnid
Ah... my mistake then. Correcting this is easy enough, since the non-conned damages are already listed.
As far as bruising goes, everywhere I have seen it listed says it is a "resistable damage resistance debuff". Key word here is "resistable". Damage resistance debuff resistance isn't listed as a stat for players or enemies, so I have to assume it doesn't exist and the resistable part of the damage resistance debuff must come from the purple patch. I'll do some experiments with this later.
But that is not the same as an irresistable damage resistance debuff.
And damage resistance debuff resistance doesn't exist because damage resistance resists resistance debuffs.
And a noise annoys an oyster.
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Quote:I would increase the Tanker damage cap so their damage would to be 25%-30% less than Brutes at their damage cap.Originally Posted by Lucky666
I ******* hate those people lol. Johnny curious here what would you do if you had 1 thing and 1 thing only to fix tankers to your liking? what just a simple damage cap increase or what.
OR I would go for the root of both Tanker and Stalker problems and remove Scrappers and Brutes from the game entirely, leaving the remaining two melee ATs to do their own thing at each end of the spectrum in peace and let the devs go from there. Sure, it would be hugely unpopular with some people. But since I did it, I'd take the heat, and it's no worse than what I get already.
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Quote:Yeah, I'll bet Defenders and Blasters are just coveting the King of Aggro crown. Everyone is, that's why the Presence pool is soooo popular.Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Lying will never help your case.
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Quote:You only say that because it's a mantle nobody else wants because it doesn't benefit them.Originally Posted by UberGuy
Some people play the meatshield not because it's the "right" ratio of damage to toughness, but because they really enjoy doing that. Let them do it it with authority when they take on that mantle.
So it's fine to give Brutes too much survivability for their damage if they give Tankers a token aggro buff because, "hey who cares?" Nobody is lining up for the Presence pool.
Hey, let's give Tankers the brightest shining power icons while we're at it. Or make them the kings of "ATs that get a free small orange inspiration on the third Tuesday morning of every odd month".
Seriously, Tankers don't need a buff that helps everyone else BUT them. "Happy Birthday. My present to you is I donated $1 to charity."
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Quote:No, Bruising does NOT act like a flat 20% increase to Tanker damage for two reasons:Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Bruising adds a flat 20% damage to any target it is applied to, and this is independent of Tanker damage cap. In damage scalar terms, that would make that Tanker's damage scale against that particular target 0.96 (because 20% of 0.8 is 0.16, which you'd simply add to it). For the record, that would be almost exactly 85% of Scrapper damage. (85% of 1.125 is 0.95625, which rounds up to 0.96%)
1. It only effects 1 target. It doesn't affect AoE damage
2. You don't start a fight with Brusing in effect. In order for Bruising to work you must lead with your tier 1 and follow a very specific attack chain to refresh it (as opposed to being able to throw an attack with better damage per cast time) that may be far from optimal compared to a Scrapper with the same powers (who may not have to use their T1 attack ever).
And
3. In any team situation where ST damage matters, like fighting an AV or GM, Bruising is buffing the damage of any Scrappers around too. So they catch right back up to being too far ahead.
Not to mention, on a team, Tankers take the heat off of Scrappers if the Scrapper chooses, so the Scrapper doesn't feel ANY downside to having 75% of a Tanker's HP. It's almost a non-penalty for someone who gets superior damage. Tankers buff Scrapper survivability AND damage while the Tanker gets nothing from being next to a Scrapper, except to see smaller numbers compared to them. Which, is why I suggested that Scrappers take a 20% decrease in damage and gain -25% resistance debuffs on all their attacks.
So you despise Tankers so much, rather than fix them you call for Brute nerfs. Nice.Quote:That leads me to the conclusion that it is Brutes that are broken and throwing the balance point between the 4 melee ATs off, not Tankers. I didn't do the math to back that up, but it's a strong hunch.
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Quote:No, they can't.Originally Posted by Megajoule
Lurking around the edges of this thread, it seems that (some) Tanker players and the Devs have contradictory, irreconcilable visions of the AT and/or its role in Trials.
Tanker players: Tankers should be able to resist/survive everything the game throws at us.
Devs: There should be things that no one, not even tankers, can resist/survive.
Can't both be right.
I side with the devs; there needs to be danger for all ATs.
But, to the devs, you need to stop balancing Tanker damage against their survivability so strictly when you're more than willing to circumvent that survivability in too many situations and strip them of their advantage. Nor should you when far too often you render it superfluous and not really advantageous and also have the gall to hand out softcapping IOs, Barrier and Rebirth to Brutes and Scrappers.
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Quote:Brutes have the SAME resistance, defense and regen caps as Tankers, and only a 10% lower HP cap.Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Or was that not what you meant when you said they should have the same damage cap, while saying nothing about defense values or base damage?
But even with a lower damage modifier, their damage at their cap is way beyond Tankers who get kneecapped by their cap. Shouldn't the damage a Brute does at their damage cap only be 10% higher instead of the 80% higher it is?
WHY SHOULD BRUTES GET NEARLY THE SAME SURVIVABILITY POTENTIAL AS TANKERS BUT MUCH MORE DAMAGE POTENTIAL?
And before you say the damage caps are far off things that don't matter, ONE Kin will ram a Tanker into their damage cap, and Brutes, who aren't exactly fragile to begin with, now have Barrier and Rebirth and way more things that improve their survivability and make them more tough than ever before, and they still have plenty of room to grow defensively and offensively. Four of my Tankers already hit the damage cap on their own, have NO real capability for any offensive growth and no real need to be tougher.
The caps very much matter, as does potential, especially when they're giving everyone ever more ways to approach theirs. And make no mistake, they WILL keep adding more buffs to the game. More IOs. More Incarnate powers. More temps.
It will keep getting easier to have tougher and tougher Brutes further and further into the range of Tankers, but the Tanker damage cap hasn't changed.
But it's OK when it's Brutes?Quote:Simple fact: An AT that is simultaneously the most survivable AND among the highest damaging is brokenly overpowered and has no place in a game that even attempts to have any kind of balance between character classes.
Brutes are tougher than ever on their own, still have the potential to be as tough as Tankers (sorry, minus 10% HP, which really isn't that meaningful), can still receive buffs and heal to increase their toughness, don't exactly have survivability problems yet have much more damage potential.
A Brute at their caps only has 10% less HP than the toughest AT yet has 80% MORE damage, so how is THAT balanced?
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Quote:Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Johnny Butane won't like that idea, but Johnny doesn't seem to grasp very well what a Tanker is meant to be doing in this game.
Quote:The Tanker is an irresistible force combined with an immovable object. This Archetype can take and dish out all sorts of damage.
The Tanker is not totally invulnerable, but his skills allow the other Archetypes to play their parts, too. The Tanker is a devastating hand to hand combatant, and ranks second only to the Scrapper in sheer melee power. He possesses some ranged abilities, though far below those of the Blaster or the Defender.Quote:As a Tanker lands more and more blows, he'll start doing more and more damage. The longer the fight, the more powerful the Tanker becomes. I can't say that the Tanker will do as much damage as a Scrapper - but it'll certainly be more than he does now. This ability really gets to the core of a comic book Tanker. He's extremely powerful - but at the start of a fight, he holds himself back some. As the battle progresses, he lets loose....I prefer this system to a power because this way it's inherent. It's simply the nature of the Archetype. And it also sets the Tanker apart from the Scrapper's criticals.
I know EXACTLY what the Tanker is SUPPOSED to be doing. Even if the developers have forgotten and sold them out.
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Quote:I have NEVER seen a game that had the gall to un-ironically call you a god or even demigod and then have civilians throwing rocks at you for massive damage.Originally Posted by UberGuy
Have you, like, every played any other games that purported to make you into gods? Because I have, and I consider this completely standard and normal.
I said I expected exactly something like the Ascended because I didn't think the designers had it in them to not demote/dilute what 'Incarnate' meant.Quote:What exactly do you expect?
But they're the ones who promised "cosmic level challenges worth of being of godlike power". Yeah, lemme know when that happens, because I don't consider a Defender getting pelted to death with TPN rocks "godlike" in any way, even if he's got some ghost robot pets and can lob a large fireball/lightning every couple minutes.
Liars.
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Essentially, this was the devs continued retconning and downsizing of what it means to be an Incarnate, which is exactly what I expected when they announced the Incarnate system.
Incarnates were said to have the power of the gods, rare beings of awesome might. That is how it was understood and established long before the Incarnate system was added to the game.
Now, Incarnates mean nothing. There's hundreds of them walking around Atlas Park with names like 'Healz1992'. Statesman was said to have the power Zeus, a god. But as we've seen, he was hardly godlike, neither are player Incarnates.
The beings with true godlike power are the Ascended, like Mot and Rularuu.
Incarnates are at best, weak demigods, able to be challenged by any random martial artist shmuck with 'Soul Ink' or Praetorian citizen armed with stones. We're not gods. We can't even fight gods directly. Mot is a god and we essentially had to cheat to win against him, and at best all we did was contain him temporarily.
The Incarnate system so cheapened what it meant to be an Incarnate they had to invent a whole other tier above them to be the actual gods; the Ascended. And woe be it anyone who aspires to ascend, because Prometheus threatens to send his invisible ninja death squads after you if you ever stop being his lapdog and running his little trials for tiny scraps of power.
So, congratulations. We graduated from being the Phalanx and Recluse's lackeys to being doing what Prometheus tells us and being threatened by him, civilian thrown rocks and enemies we used to solo but can now fight off you and 23 other 'demigods'. Oh, and you get to feel a little more insignificant because the actual cosmic movers and shakers are the Ascended.
Nice job devs. Way to move that goalpost.
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Quote:Yeah, that's not going to happen.Originally Posted by William_Valence
Seriously, make tankers the Ultimate survivable characters in Trial content (I.E allowing them to resist unresistable damage, and now that I think of it avoid autohit damage)
Accept the fact that the developers want ALL of the ATs to be in danger some of the time.
Just as the developers need to accept that, in light of that previous fact, strictly balancing an AT's damage against a survivability that can be both superfluous in many situations and circumvented in many other situations may not be fair or fun. Especially given that Brutes and Tankers having very comparable survival potential, while Tankers have largely inferior damage potential.
Given that nobody seems to have an issue with Brute survivability either way, it's painfully obvious that it's the Tanker damage cap that needs to give and be increased.
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Quote:No.Originally Posted by Zyphoid
This is an honest question, but didn't the brute resistance cap get lowered when the fury changes were made?
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Quote:Your "attempt to agree" with me included a backhanded insult.Originally Posted by Zyphoid
I attempt to agree with you, and you go on the attack.
...and right after you try to be even more inflammatory.Quote:I am convince that there is NOTHING the devs could do to tanks that would make you happy, because you don't want to be happy. Until tanks are like Superman and can take more damage than anyone else (which they already can) AND do more damage than anyone else, you are not going to like it. As much as you complain why have you not found a new game to play yet?
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Quote:All of my Tankers hit the damage cap with ONE Kin on the team. Without any IOs for +dam. All of my SS Tankers and my Shield can do it on their own. And at the cap they'll still do less damage than my Brute, who doesn't faceplant and still has plenty of room to improve offensively and defensively.Originally Posted by BrandX
Instead of fighting for Tanker buffs for more damage, you might want to go the route of suggesting more options for +DMG in set bonuses, so your tanker who already matches the IOed Scrapper/Brute builds on survivability can work towards building for +DMG instead.
What do I care about +Dam when it doesn't do jack until they bring Tanker caps in line with Brute caps. They get the same regen, resistance and defense potential as Tankers, and only 10% less max HP potential. Tankers get a heck of a lot less then -10% Brute damage potential.
And yes, I have been fighting the the caps to be reevaluated.
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Quote:I don't. Why should I buff the damage of any Brutes and Scrappers around me even more? I already take all the heat off them and they already take more than they give back.Originally Posted by Zyphoid
I also think bruising should work and be increasingly stronger on all tanker attacks, also don't think it will happen.
You know what? Nerf Scrapper damage 20% and give them a 25% -res debuff on all attacks. There. They effectively do 5% more damage, and actually contribute to the team now.
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Quote:Well, if you're trying imply that the Tanker's shtick is fighting hard targets, they're not all that good at it compared to the other melee ATs.Originally Posted by BrandX
Wasn't Bruising suppossed to be more about the single hard targets than the rank and file? So why would most people notice? Most people don't take on single hard targets solo.
And note that taking a beating from hard targets isn't fighting them. If it was, I'd be bankrolling an inanimate slab of concrete as the greatest mixed martial arts fighter in the world.
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Quote:Oh, and what's the Tanker's shtick? That they're the worst of the four fighters at fighting?Originally Posted by Slaunyeh
I've been saying the same thing pretty much since Going Rogue. Among the four "fight stuff in melee" ATs, the scrapper is the only one that doesn't have a special shtick.
And before you answer "Bruising", I've met a disturbingly large number of new or returning players, playing Tankers that don't know and couldn't tell it even exists. If your shtick isn't noticeable enough that people even know it's there, that says something.
As to the greater issue we're seeing here:
There's an elephant in the room, and since few have the wontons to say anything, I will.
There's not room enough in the game for four ATs that essentially do the same thing. We don't need four melee ATs. Period.
And if there are any ATs that should be cut, it's the two that are closest to the middle that overlap the most, Scrappers and Brutes, leaving the two remaining extremes (Stalkers and Tankers) distinct and with enough space from each other for comfort.
But it's unlikely the devs would ever do something so extreme. So we're doomed to argue and keep jockeying the four against each other from now until the time the game ends. Well, jockeying three of them since no one but me really gives a damn about Tankers as long as they make consistent farmers and taunt bots.
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