Johnny_Butane

Unless you're a Brute, then you can get Barrier and not have to give up anything.

I can show you many Brutes who's survivability is high enough it doesn't matter that it's lower than a Tanker for 90% of the content in the game and who retain way better damage then them regardless.

Of course not! That's the point. That's because they're not set so ridiculously low, like a Tanker's. One Kin shouldn't ram Tankers into their damage cap. A Kin or few SoAs in your league shouldn't make Build Up, Rage or Leadership toggles much less relevant, if not irrelevant.

You still can't justify why a Brute should have as much survivability potential as a Tanker but way more damage potential, can you?



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But they all seem to have moved into DA.

Yeah, this is the devs fabricating a reason for a melee AT to get Clarion Destiny.


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Except we're not. This is the Incarnate system, not the Ascension system. That's the point. They baited and switched us. Incarnates used to mean godhood. Now, it doesn't. Now it means having some ghost robots and being able to lob a large fireball every couple minutes and you and 23 others fighting a palette swap of Luminary that I used to solo before I became an Incarnate.

This is the "slow path" to godhood in the sense that driving is the "slow path" to Easter Island.


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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sebasti...w_%28comics%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strong_Guy



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A Brute does not need to be at the damage resistance cap for his base damage resistance being lower than a Tanker to not matter. Once a Brute can jump into a spawn of +4X8 and beat them down and walk away, they don't need to be any tougher.

THIS HAPPENS NOW. This isn't an imaginary scenario. Softcapping, level shifts, Barrier and Rebirth have made this a reality. It's NOT uncommon. At all.

Tankers hit their damage cap NOW.
That is not some far off scenario either. All it takes is ONE Kin on the team. Any SS or Shield character is likely hitting their cap on their own too, and it only happens sooner and more often if you have anyone with leadership nearby.

So even on a just team with a Kin and a bubbler, not an uncommon situation at all, a Brute will NOT be faceplanting and will be outputting way more damage while the Tanker has hit their cap and isn't even receiving full benefit.

In practical game play, buffing, levelshifts, Destiny and IOs make "slightly more survivable than a Scrapper," with the same caps as a Tanker, pretty damn survivable. Enough so they don't really lose much for not being as tough as a Tanker, because they don't need to be. They get to not faceplant, but keep superior damage.

In practical gameplay, FOUR of my Tankers HIT their damage cap solo EVERY time I play them for more than half of the time. ALL of my Tankers get less from any kind off offensive buffing than my Brutes do, and get less from any defensive buffing (because they don't need any, it's superfluous, they're Tankers). One Kin or a couple SoA make it far too easy. I'm best friends with the Tanker damage cap. I see him every day. He's a nice guy, but a little short.


This is a clear cut case.
If Brutes are allowed to have the same survival caps as Tankers, Tankers should be allowed to have the same level of damage at the cap as Brutes.

If the caps as far off and irrelevant as you claim they are, then upping the Tanker damage cap shouldn't matter to you. It matters to me because even though I IO'd out for softcapping defense, my Tankers have limited chance to grow offensively and are already hitting their damage cap, while my Brutes, who are built to the same level of quality, have huge potential to just keep getting better both offensively and defensively, no matter what the future brings.



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No, all they need for that is to expand on the Epic Pools and and make them available earlier than the late 30's. Web Grenade is good to go. Martial Arts with the alternate animations plus Jump Kick and Super Reflexes. Golden

Then all that's left is a swinging travel power.



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Well, no what I meant was that there's a distinct lack of magic users in Praetoria. First Ward only partially accounts for that. There's a pretty clear indication that Tyrant seizes and/or destroys magical power granting artifacts if he can.

And supers of all sorts end up being "sent overseas" never to be heard from again. The implication I'm seeing is that Tyrant is rounding up powered people and eliminating them, both because they're a threat to him/potential asset to the resistance, and because without them that's more Well power for himself.

IIRC, it was said directly that the number of people in Powers Division and the number of people applying to it, was dropping, as if people with powers were becoming rarer.



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Yeah, but Brutes didn't have claws at the start. Considering how insanely popular Clawsbub is, and especially was when they were creating the ATs, I'd lean hard towards saying he was who they had in mind. Especially since in the old character creator (maybe even still in the current one) selecting the Scrapper AT even made a SNIKT/SLICE-ey kind of sound.


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I'm far past trying to convince the devs of anything. They're either fully aware if the problem and don't care about it, or don't have the time/resources to address it. To the latter, five years on, patience is running a little short. To the former, there's no point in trying to even be reasonable.

There's been some talk about looking at Tankers I'm very skeptical given their collective past treatment of the AT. I think that's justified. If you don't, fair enough.


I think wanting the damage cap adjusted and there to stop being a double standard with the melee ATs is very reasonable.

I also want for Tankers to meet the same expectations set by their comic Tanker counterparts as reasonably well as Scrappers meet the expectations set by that short hairy guy with the claws and as Brutes do for the big green guy with the anger issues, without having to pretend being a decoy means you're a powerhouse because some guy played too much DnD designing the game instead of referring to guys like Kirby, Lee or Bruce Timm.

Why those ATs are allowed to, but Tankers have to get the shaft for "balance" that I don't think is really balanced isn't something anyone will ever convince me of.



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I do.

I also say you've blown off Brutes stealing Fury from Tankers how many times in the past? So I find you taking issue with Stalker criticals hilarious.

I also find you making any complaints and suggesting someone else's perspective on AT balance is skewed, after having seen you gloat about Pylon soloing on both Scrappers and Brutes, also giggle worthy. I'm sorry your Porsche isn't fast enough.

And here you are now, laying flame bait and trying to reignite things when the discussion has moved past that. Good luck with that.



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That would do Shield Tankers, and anyone with SS and Hasten, or anyone with a Kin on their team, little with the current damage cap.

Maybe, if they upped the cap, for the next round of ATOs.



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Yeah, 'threat' doesn't smash Lex Luthor's giant robots. In fact, it makes you less threatening IMO, since they're more willing to attack you.

And no amount of pretending will make Tankers, as they are currently, a powerhouse. I sincerely hope nobody with more than a month of gameplay and one Tanker under their belt can be that deluded.

But I will admit, held up against Superman, I find Tankers (and eye beams) very offensive. Not in the way you mean though, I think.



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For the record, I don't think they are.

If the Tanker damage cap was increased to be comparable to the Brute damage cap (minus 30-25% damage output to make up for Tankers having 10% better HP and Bruising) I'd have no big issue with Brutes.



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Ah, but the devs just gave Brutes an ATO that helps them build Fury even easier. And the last change to Brutes improved their Fury building speed as well (at the cost of maximum Fury...which the Brute ATO seems to correct...wait, what?)

The devs' actions seem indicate they disagree with you.




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No, but they did trade damage to help the team more, apparently.


It would help Scrappers to be more beneficial to teams, they'd nearly break even (wafer thin!) and give them something unique. Call it 'Wounding'.

To make it truly unique, I'd be fully willing to let Tankers give up Bruising in trade for a straight 20% damage increase. Since you and I seem to be the only ones who can tell its not the same, nobody else should mind.



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Maybe you need to look at it another way.

Spider-Man gets up, fights four muggers armed with handguns and gets his "Inf" for the day.

How is that any different than Thor waking up, fighting 4 giant robots and getting his "Inf" for the day?

It's not. It only becomes a problem when you force Thor to fight four muggers armed with handguns and they wreck him. Because the reverse, Spidey taking down four giant robots, just makes him look awesome.


First, most of the content in the game does NOT require Tanker-level toughness.

Second, if a Brute can jump into mobs of +4X8, and win out, what does it matter if the Tanker is tougher?

In a world with Barrier and Rebirth, this is a reality. My Brute face planted ZERO times in all of the DA arcs. He didn't need to match my Tanker's numbers to do that and did better damage than my Tanker the whole time.

So I ask: If they've balanced Tanker damage against survivability, including forcing low damage caps on Tankers, how is giving Brutes and Scrappers a level shift or temp powers that improve survivability (making them that much tougher against ALL content in the game), but still keeping their damage relative to Tankers just as high, fair to Tankers?
I don't think it is.

It boils down to a simple fact:

There are diminishing benefits to being tougher. Once you can survive whatever they throw at you, when you are above the "immortality line", being tougher than that isn't really an asset.

The more powerful everyone becomes, the more Brutes and Scrappers climb above that line for a larger and larger percentage of the content. Having their damage stay superior to Tankers even when none of them are really going to faceplant just isn't fair. Those times that none of them are going to face plant are only becoming more and more frequent, but the damage gap is staying the game.




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People don't act like it.


Too many people are ignorant of that fact and too many deny it for me to stop reminding everyone. I'll 'let it go' when proper reparations are made for it.


Unless they're a Brute. Then the devs think that it's fine for years.


The only indication they may get one has been non-committal and hollow words heard third-hand. And if it's not raising the aggro cap, threat or something else token that doesn't fix the real problems, I'll be very surprised.

Given the devs' track record with Tankers, throwing "devastating hand to hand combatants" out the window, making them aggro monkeys, stealing Fury for Brutes...heck, killing the most famous Tanker like a punk...why exactly should I give them any good faith?


I'm civil and respectful to those who are civil and respectful to me, both at present and in the past.




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Superman disagrees.




So does Statesman.




FYI, Darrin Wade didn't steal Statesman's powers so he could stand there and act as a distraction while someone else did the real fighting.



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Well, you said it'd be an even break. So, Scrappers help the team more, lose nothing themselves.

Even if they do mind it not being on the first attack, for helping the team so much that's a tiny price to pay; "It is wafer thin!"



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Yeah, but them taking it shouldn't matter because more power can be created.

If not, personally, I think it should stay contained to the Praetorian Earth. That way you could establish why dimensions like the real world exist:

We don't have super powered beings because some jerk stole all our Force Potential and ran off to make his own dimension. The best we can manage now are these guys:

http://www.cracked.com/article_16449...perpowers.html



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Some people count Bruising as a full 20% damage increase, even though it's not on the first attack either, nor does it affect AoE damage, and has to be maintained by a special attack chain. So I thought that wouldn't matter to them.

And still, think of all the benefit it would do for the team. Don't you wanna help the team? I mean, who doesn't want to take a damage hit just to help the team, AMIRITE?



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Yes.

But, there's a very real possibility they have gotten rid of this for VIPs and I was only grandfathered and they decided to honor it one last time for people who's year fell after Freedom. But I did get one for Jan.



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Well, correction. I got mine for last year. I wont get mine for this year until 10 months from now.


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