John_Printemps
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Quote:In terms of a Miss/Save-Roll... Doesn't really feel like a "unique" mechanic. It (in terms of how it happens) definitely is, but the broken-down action is really no different than tossing a 5/10/25% Chance to Stun/Sleep/KD/KU/KB a target when you do hit (although, granted, Broadsword does only have two powers with mitigation KU/KD). I partially agree with Werner that there may be scenarios where that's too powerful (1-20, despite the "Accuracy Boost", still plenty of misses in there, upping the ante on how often you'll probably see something mezzed).Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I tossed in the idea a ten percent chance for this effect to occur. The 5% is the minimum chance for you to miss, even if you are at the tohit cap, and therefore the minimum opportunity for this effect to go off even under the circumstances EG alluded to where Broadsword made missing itself unlikely.
We were talking about ways to differentiate Broadsword from Katana. Differentiation is not really a quantity thing, its a qualitative thing. More different than having unique mechanics that exist nowhere else in the game doesn't really exist: there is nothing more differentiating than that. Whether Broadsword quantitatively under performs Katana is a separate issue, and one that can be addressed separately and numerically.
After taking a look at the in-game information for what's available (on live) for Titan/Staff Fighting, both have new unique mechanics; and Staff fighting actually looks a tad on the more complex side with the amount of variant options they're giving us in the new "Forms". Seeing Titan Weapon's "Momentum" plan does leave room for hope, but I'm personally starting to settle in the boat that (given how much new flair will be coming out with intricate and multiple moving pieces like Combo's, Forms, and Mechanics) maybe a simple and adequate change is best for now.
...Which reverts me back to the original agreement everyone had in sprucing up Broadsword's Build Up (and this is kind of generally directed to the whole threads thoughts). Inner Light (now that I've been made aware of it after missing the patch notes on PB improvements) doesn't seem like a bad path, and getting it "Perma" isn't too difficult (40% Global, Hasten, and Spiritual Alpha with ~59% Rech in IL), but it also looks like super-recharge builds will have an easy time of overlapping it by 5-10-15 seconds, which is less ideal but if we downside the power and make overlap dangerous, we could balance it for Broadsword.
So I'm thinking, we want to keep our campy Burst feel, but give it some good love at the same time. 90/s Rech, 30/s total power duration:
5/s 120% +Dam & +15% To-Hit
5/s 80% +Dam & 10% To-Hit
10/s 25% +Dam & 5% To-Hit
...and the latter 20/s (of a 30/s duration) would be -20% Recovery, -10% Spd with the last ten seconds including -10% To-Hit.
With this nature, if it starts to "Stack", the expense becomes greater, and the last ten second -10% To-Hit will cancel out part or all of the start for the new one, the -20% Recovery will potentially double, and the -Spd will start to double. It keeps its "Bursty" feel, averages out it's damage a little bit without giving it the capacity to jump ahead, and specifically penalizes super-charged builds to avoid it from gaining the potential to match or exceed its current limit while improve it's desired effect. The -Recov emphasizes exhaustion from suddenly pushing the "crazy" button, slowing you down (-Spd). -
Quote:So, I went and did a little historical weapon related research this morning and... I was wrong on a few things. Historically speaking, Katana--as a set--is more about the art of the attacks in combination with the concept of a single-edged blade (and at conception: curved). Whereas "Broadsword" covers a more wide spectrum of dual-edged weapons up to and almost including Rapiers, and that in the shortest way to explain it, the game was designed at the beginning with two identical sword-sets simply to have two different graphical weapons instead of an alternate skin.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
You're going to need to be a bit more specific than that.
But you didn't explain why those things actually make sense. As I said, for example mentioning that you personally think broadsword attacks in the real world make you more vulnerable to more damage which is simulated by resistance debuffs implies that's obvious. I not only think its not obvious, I don't think its even true.
Going off the animations of just Broadsword, they would imply a more Longsword like technique or use that I was erroneously connecting to "Broadswords" when the definition between the two is (apparently) significant. There's also the likelihood that you really couldn't use the term "******* Sword"* for a verging Super-Hero MMO. In regards to the aspects of Broadsword causing -Res based on Smash-Effects, this is relative, but more on the pretense of War Mace than on Broadsword and really only works on Broadsword if its defined more as a Longsword. In terms of a Longsword coming with a -Res concept, this would have more meaning in relation to the largest use of the weapon from the 12th to the 16th century, in particular the time when armor plating was a major part of warfare. While it wasn't a practice part of codified techniques, using the weapon to bash plating both assisted in damaging the armor as well as using concussive energy to potentially damage the wearer (ala bruising). Repeated strikes in this matter breaking an opponents resistances down and opening to further harm. That could easily be taken as a -Def or -Res if you really argue it.
"Armor Bashing" translates better into the use of Maces or Flanges, though, as this is their intended use: to create a large force of impact to either weaken or hopefully penetrate armor to literally beat their opponent to death. So a "Demoralize" mechanic works more accurately with War Mace than it did with Broadsword, but that does not discourage my belief that Broadsword would be justified with some kind of -Res component. Most specifically in terms with this description:
Bloßfechten (blosz fechten) or "bare fighting" is the technique of fighting without significant protective armour such as plate, mail
The lack of significant torso and limb protection leads to the use of a large amount of cutting and slicing techniques in addition to thrusts. These techniques could be nearly instantly fatal or incapacitating, as a thrust to the skull, heart, or major blood vessel would cause massive trauma. Similarly, strong strikes could cut through skin and bone, effectively amputating limbs. The hands and forearms are a frequent target of some cuts and slices in a defensive or offensive maneuver, serving both to disable an opponent and align the swordsman and his weapon for the next attack.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backsword
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadsword
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longsword
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mace_(club)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katana
*Edit: See, it even gets blipped off the forums despite the fact I'm referring to a literal term for a specific weapon.
Also, I thought I should add: I cannot entirely argue that translating real-world physics into the game is not always a capable practice, but is this game, or any other, not trying to in-fact emulate the real world given a certain set of parameters? -
Quote:The obvious purpose is the one standing in the open. To be Broadsword. Not a sub-par Katana clone, or just a lame-duck set that has sword animations and doesn't provide much of anything else. Broadsword should do exactly as anyone would expect it to and I gave real-world comparisons to iterate that. The powers should do and act like they actually function in the real world (as best as can be translated in the game environment). Aside from the argument of being left-handed, anyone who thinks about Katana agrees that it (for the most part) does exactly as anyone would expect from it. The set speaks entirely from the mechanics it employs.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
But what is that obvious purpose? I did read your suggestion, but there wasn't an obvious unifying concept being directly implemented. Explaining the reason for adding the effect is not exactly the same thing as having a unifying concept or purpose.
Just as you said in a previous post:Quote:Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The primary difference between giving broadsword -res instead of adding direct damage in terms of broad effect is that more damage means the broadsword wielder deals more damage, while -res means everyone on the team deals more damage. There's no clear justification given for why broadsword should have that effect. In this game, very hard smashing damage doesn't equate to becoming more vulnerable to more damage: if it did, that same conceptual justification should apply even more to Martial Arts, which in this game is all about smashing impacts far more than broadsword. It would apply even more to something like War Mace. And I think there should be some conceptual consistency between the powerset definitions, or they are just ad hoc excuses.
Some sets, a -Res component does make sense. And, I'm not saying that Broadsword should have its current damage raised, in fact, balancing it to match the impact of a -Res mechanic would be right in line to keep it balanced; and I'm not saying it should be all Smashing damage, but that it should include a split damage type to better reflect the concept of using a Broadsword. As is seen with Street Justice, I believe the developers are starting to admit that -Res is a viable component to Melee sets (-7.5% from Rib Cracker, that's at least 3.5% more from a single hit than I was even suggesting). Rib Cracker is, in fact, a perfect example in comparison to what Broadsword should be doing. Along with that, I'm not even saying the -Res would be added to all the attacks, but barely even accessible from two (realistically, at most), and only stack a limited amount and still require an initial attack that would open the ability to trigger the -Res.Quote:Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Over the years I've noticed that -res seems thematically appropriate for everything. By my recollection, its been thematically suggested for Martial Arts, Dark Melee, War Mace, Spines, Radiation Blast, and Brawl.
The -Res, as you pointed out, is also opening not just "more damage" to Broadsword, but also to the team they may or may not be on as well. This same claim could be said about the -Def component in all of the attacks right now. I also never pinned that Smashing damage should roll with a -Res component, but that there is thematic and real world comparable evidence to say that when you pound on something, each additional hit does more damage. Say someone punches you and you get a bruise, then they hit you again in the same spot, the bruise gets worse, and worse, and worse inflicting more and more damage. That is where the "Demoralize" idea came from. Each subsequent hit hurts more, and is morally crushing, let alone physically painful. Do other sets deserve something similar? Yes, I think they do. In fact, to compare to another preexisting mechanic: Tanker Bruising. Repeatedly pounding on something to build -Resistance. Not all the sets deserve or need this kind of review, but much older sets that thematically could use it, and currently have no clear unique mechanics could easily benefit from them. War Mace functions a lot like Broadsword, so much that they both deserve a Demoralizing aspect.
I did relate to Rage as it is the only long-term +Damage effect that also comes with a crash/downside. I didn't want just a long term build-up effect, but something that emphasized the consequences of using the power. Rage does push a -Defense at the tail end, but is for the most part negligible and ignored by most players. When referring specifically to a "Berserker", that's more frenziedly violent or destructive with the likelihood of putting oneself in danger in order to do more and more damage. That's why I suggested that it provide some nature of +Dam for whatever given duration, and that the power have the capacity to be stacked, and once stacked, initiate a significant debuff to the players Defense and Resistances to signify the "violent and destructive" mannerism that continues the entire duration of the power. You want more power? It'll cost you. The difficult question is, yes, how to balance that style of power that a single use keeps Broadsword in line with other sets, and that stacking the power does not make it too powerful, but still gives it the opportunity to be stronger than Katana, at a significantly higher risk.Quote:Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I like the idea of replacing Build Up with something unique: the whole idea of unique build up is actually something I've advocated for a very long time. It was a short cut to give most power sets a copy-paste build up, but things like Follow Up and Soul Drain provide better diversity. But rather than suggest a more fury-like effect you mentioned something related to Rage, which is not so much a totally different power as just a longer duration (and fundamentally because of that, almost always better) build up with a crash. A short duration rage that can stack is more of a follow up-like effect. Something *totally* unique would be something I would be more inclined to like. Like suppose we replace Build Up with a power with 30 second duration and 180 second recharge, and while it was up it offered a damage bonus that quickly ramped up from zero to a maximum (say, 125%) in ten seconds, then slowly decayed to zero over the next 20 seconds. More like a go berserk mode that slowly wears off.
It would still be "just more damage" as EG says but this wouldn't be here to explicitly add a radical new feature to Broadsword, and more to simply qualitatively distinguish it from Katana. Its "unique purpose" would still have to come from something it could do better than katana (and presumably most other sets).
Such changes solidify the "Medieval/Knight" mentality that comes with Broadsword, and would give it an identity that puts it in league with Katana (the lithe, quick and lethal) and Dual Blades (stacking precision moves).
But, I'm also fighting the flu right now so who knows if anything I just said makes sense, so I'm going back to bed
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Quote:That's why I suggested the below, in order to (fundamentally) keep the set where it is, but give it a more obvious purpose.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
If there was an obvious concept for Broadsword that suggested an alternate avenue of power set focus, I'd probably do that instead.
Quote:Originally Posted by John_Printemps
Split the damage type 70/30 Lethal/Smashing, add a Demoralizing Mechanic, and provide a more unique "Build Up" (Berserk) to overall give the set a very defined and unique appeal that will interest people to move away from other sets without shoving it into the "Best Set Ever". -
Quote:That's the thing, this isn't another new Mechanic. It would be a modification of the currently-existing Degenerate mechanic from Beam Rifle. You hit someone with the attack Degenerate, and it adds that "state" to the target. Then, for the other attacks in the set, when a target has "Degenerate" on them, you apply an additional DoT that has the chance of spreading to other targets around it.Originally Posted by Errant
I like this as well... however, leery of the developer time required to create yet ANOTHER new mechanic...
So, same mechanic, in essence. Just change it from "Degenerate" to "Demoralize" (simple name change in the coding), and instead of "DoT" it adds "-Res" (again, code copy/change to a pre-existing function). -
I know, its the new "Pretty" everyone is using, but I've been sitting down with Mid's and had a bit of a surprise when I started messing with the secondary. I'm not much a Brute/Stalker person (really, has anyone ever seen one of my rare posts anywhere but here?
), so I never bothered messing with it until it came to Scrappers (yay!) and I'm sitting here going "...really? Are they sure they ported this right?" Anyone that pays attention to what I do post here, my whole shtick is taking a secondary and pushing it to the breaking point where "it doesn't get any better." With all the new stuff that has come over the years, there's some new faces in the Scrapper-dom trying to do the same thing, so I thought'd be good fun to see what others may be trying to do with Energy Aura now that the math-mind-sociopaths of the Scrapper-Forums have been tinkering with it.
Currently I'm fiddling with Street/EA, although I've successfully plugged Kinetic Melee into the build with the exact same stats so I'm sure the primary can be crossed to any of them. I've become obsessed with Overload's +HP. While EA doesn't have Invuln's level of resistance, I'm questioning if Energize cannot compensate that difference and contend with "the most survivable secondary." As it stands (and, yes, this does focus on a saturated Entropic Aura with the bound-determination to always be on full-throttle with this secondary), I'm looking at a soft-cappable build with Overload on a 35/s downtime. This almost seems like overkill until I became infatuated with EA being at 100+% Defense, 5+ EPS, 2300+ HP, 500+% Regen, "Conserve Power", 32-35% S/L Resist, 24-27% EN Resist, and a heal popping every 27/s. Right now I'm only on build 3.0, I went through eight renditions of Shield Defense when it first released before I'd found the Golden Goose, and three more variations on that after iContent was out. So, I'm curious to see how others might be approaching it, and if anyone can still improve this one without sacrificing its current conditions.
Code:*And hopefully anyone that tries, can load it, as I had to alter the Mid's database so that it would trigger Overload as a click to be turned on as it currently does not register as such.| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1518;707;1414;HEX;| |78DA6594CB52134114867B920921030142B81312122E09891912402DEF058256095| |130E2CE4A0DA10D23634825A11477BE821B37BAB02CB76ED4D2AD0FE0DD7750175E| |DE209ECCF909A9CA54A8EFF0779FEEBFCFE999CCFDE5CE97971F5E104AD745CBA85| |472D97CD9289564D995310A665ED0E3CE56AFAC2C8ECFB9291E3C1CCE65A425A5BE| |5436EE5966B11068E8CBF2B62C56A4BE5294E5C2416E71BF6C08EFFADE9EA55F320| |B3B559AABD9FF654B526EFBEC306314CDD2BE6554CDBD62A7ADAC49A344337B574A| |665E5FB28C073297312A55593E18221309FAFB3020F0D45C4212D2AA68DB6606779| |9D379667C0B34986A3D57B1739DA25FB135471FD8C39C5875DA74D15C85E72ACA1C| |6BEA2CF3238D39D983EA3CE7B035ED2CB3F714789A397086F989725C9CE3703D21C| |D4FBE9F32B504CE4173DCBCA7C30D7FEDF0D70E7F6E9AE351B4FA1CE10973DE67D2| |3AE0A723C1FB75C6C128B32B06CE3015EAAA977384B7468F7092D28DEA74072988A| |AA2270C46980321E657DAD1871D7D2779C5BEE3CCA113CCC979667481A9D2FA7E54| |D48FD3F5E1741E5AAF1F63FD181B3A3C398D0DF29818AC0763AAF846DA306EC130B| |A3C82AE8FE03604D0F571DC92E87B549B7247793D7534C37B04AE3183EBCCF155F0| |2A3342DEC7E0610CDDFA4EEB845083103C84B177185EC2F030090F5F282702DF91B| |B5C97090BDC41DD4CE6F41DD46F179DA4DC29EC37050FD36012354B6699691FF319| |B538869CD826AF337303CC82D799F10DE6732FBF69F59C449AB563293009EACCE42| |CF305E5E8C8D15FB1A7D9D7E01BF02D33FD8ED941E749296D764D5341D67E6B8DB7| |4E2849D6FE1E690EE526FAB489739EE7FBF0A7392FC679FFB4A637F811EEE063664| |06D7C45E857BFFD21B5F16DA8C55B46532D4ABA45996F51165A94B516655DC5B675| |E7B6E2E9697C5D6A3F8EBE76B59F4DF1AFA678C34F4742BCA5D92BDBF1ADA6F83F7| |174E479| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
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Quote:Thematically I can't see this. Per Webster: 1: a fencer's quick return thrust following a parry. While, yes, Broadsword does have an "attack" called "Parry", even that is a bit of a misnomer in a name as Broadsword is not a swift and lithe set. It is a thrust and crunch and crush set. Weapons of the magnitude to get labeled a "Broadsword" were meant for their lethal striking ability in wide and direct swings rallying the very weight of the (often dual edged) weapon. I use this definition a bit loosely as multiple cultures have varying concepts on "broadsword". Honestly, I think Parry should have been renamed to something more crunchy fitting from the get-go, but that's not the debate here.Originally Posted by EvilGeko
So how about this. Broadsword attacks all grant a buff called "Riposte Mastery." This power would last for 5-10 seconds and grant the Broadsword user a chance to riposte against a melee attack made against the user. The damage wouldn't be a whole lot but it would enough to count. The chance might scale up with the users level and stack. So that defense sets aren't completely left in the cold you could have the chance trigger on any hit roll above say 50 instead of only on successful attacks.
I do agree there is some ... awkwardness to the older sets that have not seen any kind of face lift to keep in line with the expanding and evolving game. Katana is solid on it's own, but easily outshines Broadsword. Why would anyone want Broadsword when Katana does the same bag of tricks faster, with "less" endurance investment? With the prelude of Titan Weapons on the horizon, Broadsword is about to get put in the attic.
To throw my two cents in on it: What does Broadsword really entail? Heavy demoralizing strikes depending on the size and design of the weapon. Knights of the medieval era who carried "broadswords" often used the weapons not for a lethal cutting edge, but for the brute smashing force to pummel an opponent down to open a point that they could stab a killing blow or straight out lop body parts off. Often, wild and wide swings allowed the chance to catch multiple foes in punishing hits. So, thematically, the concepts of the existing attacks are sound, but they should probably be split a little (70/30) Lethal/Smashing across the board.
Continuing with this idea, -Def is reasonable in the attacks, but its not so much about "breaking their defenses down" so much as creating such brutal strikes that subsequent attacks are more effective due to the heavy damage being inflicted each time--hence Resistance loss. I'd suggest something along the lines of a "Demoralizing" effect. Subsequent attacks on a target stack an amount of -Res. Have one or two attacks (Hack/Slash) provide -Defense, and have a couple others provide "Demoralize" (Whirling Swords/Headsplitter) ala the same mechanic as Degenerate. All the remaining attacks in the set will include a follow-up mechanic that if a target is "Demoralized", the attack will add a small -Res (2-4%, stackable, and capped at some point) while adding a small DoT (one damage every two seconds, nothing special, but something that says "they're bleeding!").
Further from that, concerns with Build Up. It shouldn't be "Oh, I suddenly feel STRONG!", it should be "I'm getting angry...bloody thirty... ATTACK!" Say, Berserk Mode. Similar mechanic to Rage from Super Strength, toned down just a bit to accommodate the -Def/-Res. Thematically, I'd also include a punishing effect for stacking it. 90/s-120/s Duration, capable of being stacked, but a second stack only gives 50% bonus and causes a significant -Def/-Res to the player to signify "Yes, you are dishing the pain, but you've become reckless, and it'll kill you."
So in short, my suggestion:
Split the damage type 70/30 Lethal/Smashing, add a Demoralizing Mechanic, and provide a more unique "Build Up" (Berserk) to overall give the set a very defined and unique appeal that will interest people to move away from other sets without shoving it into the "Best Set Ever". -
Quote:^_^ Yes, aware of basic priority, but as has been discussed, Rib Cracker does come packed with a small -Res, and may have some added value versus another attack. Take Sweeping Cross, as an example. Is a cone, and there's only a two point variation from Rib Cracker to Sweeping Cross against a single target. Thus the question of value in using a Cone throughout an attack chain (when considering a mob-spread) having more value than a single-target attack despite its -Res given the chance to do more damage. Personally, I'm not much in love with Rib Cracker as a whole. Its time just doesn't jive well when I try and crunch the chain more and more. Take into consideration something like Martial Arts, where the top chain for the set doesn't even include its T9. And then you have "Optimal Chain" and "Standard Expect-able Chain" and... Yeah, I'll just wait for them to crunch all the values (Like is it worth having Rib Cracker in a chain if it just gets overshadowed in the length of the chain, or is it worth popping it twice to get the bonus, despite a less-optimal damage compared to Heavy Blow, which is more likely to be repeated somewhere).Originally Posted by JLane
You could always just use a priority system. Something along the lines of:
CU if Combo Level = 3 > SC if Combo Level = 3 > Attack A > Attack B > Attack C
I'm not using real numbers since I'm not at my home PC with mid's, so treat this is a hypothetical.
Basically, you'd just use CU if combo level = 3. If CU is on CD, you'd use SC. If you're not at combo level 3, you'd use your highest DPA attack, then the next highest, and the next highest. It would require constant surveillance of the hotbar, but us old-time hunters from WoW lived by the priority system!
Edit: As an aside to all that: Combat Readiness popped at the top of the chain to give +3 into Sweeping Cross +62.5% Dam that will trickle down through to Crushing Uppercut (which will also hit Combo +3) -
Quote:I'm still waiting for them to tell me what the optimal Street Justice attack chain is.Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
My brain hurts now.
This thread contains WAY more math than I wanted to read this morning. I'm sure if I read all of it I would understand most of it, but I don't really want to think that hard about the damage output of a power set in a video game.
My build planning consists of: Build for survival, then hit things until they die.
(Which, for the record, I'd been considering Sweeping Cross > Heavy Blow > Shin Breaker > Heavy Blow > Crushing Uppercut. Never bothered with any DPS calculations on that, though. I've the spread sheet too, but too lazy :3) -
Double Stacked Active Defense with three 50 Membranes (27.68% x2), Grant Cover (13.84%), and Battle Agility (21.84%) for a grand total of 91.04%, and rarely do I ever experience a debuff that matters.
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Quote:But, I don't... think you read the... rest of my post? It is quite literally possible for Power Siphon to be "Virtually Permanent." If I have "Perma-PS", then where am I ever not getting an awesome Fiery Embrace?Originally Posted by Auroxis
Ok, so you have 20 seconds of FE+5xPS, and then you activate Power Siphon right as it recharges. Guess what, you have 10 seconds of awesomeness next time instead of 20, unless you get a CS crit.
I'm not denying that FE is better when buffed by PS. The point I'm trying to make is that even if PS was perma, it wouldn't help make FE any better due to some special synergy, it would be better simply because you do more damage than others before FE comes into the equation.
Even if there's down spikes in PS's usage, just as Arcanaville pointed out, you can easily time them out in between mobs. The only situation where it would effectively matter would be against a single target...which, again, you can end up with a virtually perma-PS in that situation, making the argument of getting a bad FE null and void. This isn't "Special Synergy," this is "Basic Game Play." Are you going to pop Fiery Embrace ten seconds before you rush the next mob, then hit Power Siphon and absolutely waste FE? No, not likely. -
Quote:I'm sorry, I'm not following...Originally Posted by Auroxis
Assuming Power Siphon has a 30 second recharge timer, and Fiery Embrace has a 45 second recharge timer, how would you manage to keep Fiery Embrace up during the time Power Siphon is up, without losing out on the potential up-time of either?
And if you can't overlap them both at the same time on a regular basis without losing out on potential up-time, is it worth waiting for one or the other to recharge?
It sounds like you're asking: Power Siphon, trigger five seconds worth of ramp-attack, trigger fiery embrace, laugh in mad glee at 20/s of awesomeness?
There isn't a question of "When do I overlap," "When do I wait for recharge timers." In theory--and in most practice--the Critical of Concentrated Strike will keep you fighting with a constant 156% +Dam so that takes PS out of the equation. Thus, you trigger Fiery Embrace as often as you can, and there is no question of loosing the potential of anything. You don't want to burn FE during any potential down-time you might incur with PS, as the damage is significantly different; but there are some extenuating circumstances I could foresee: Say you Trigger PS, die shortly after before getting to FE, come back from the Hospital and PS is still down because, say, Hasten is now down, what do you do? Hit Fiery Embrace and try and jump the damage wagon as quickly as possible until PS and Hasten cycle back around and you can keep going.
For the record, I can say that there are circumstances where Concentrated Strike will absolutely screw you on Critical chances, but you really just have to roll with the punches in those situations. If you focus on hitting Fiery Embrace as often as its up, you should be spending most, if not all, of your time within the confines of 120%+. -
Quote:Within the practice of those who, you know, do it? But I'll be fair and break it down from personal experiences. Power Siphon is capable of being pushed down to (at least) a 30/s timer, which results in 20/s up time, and 10/s of "downtime" (which is really the declension of your power from the 156%); and if I account for a duration like that, you get more of a 78-80% +Dam compared to a more normal average of 60% like Arcanaville notated earlier from longer average (non-heavy IO'd) builds. We're getting a pretty significant up-time out of Power Siphon in that case, and with the Critical piece of Concentrated Strike, it is even more likely that PS is going to be around more often, quite possibly even to say up 100% of the time from that point forward with only momentary breaks for things like Hasten and Fiery Embrace to be activated.Quote:Originally Posted by Arcanaville
That doesn't seem to be the case in practice; specifically getting PS to buff FE on a regular basis by enough to generate a large overall benefit.Quote:Originally Posted by Auroxis
How would you go about explaining that?
If I recall the numbers off-hand correctly, KM/FA has the potential of seeing something like 1,500-1,900 point attacks on it's own. Somewhere between 900-1,100 point Concentrated Strikes with an additional 600-800 points off of FE (sorry, I'm not up for doing the hard math right now, you'll have to accept the rough recollections). SS/FA Brutes might be able to leverage Rage in their builds pretty heavily giving powerful interactions with Fiery Embrace, but Rage is only providing an 80% boost--160% double stacked--so, comparable to 156% at PS's top range, which is possible to maintain. If you account the fact that Scrappers have a higher damage scale, they do better resulting damage. In order for the Brute to compare, they have to include Fury, but Scrappers still get (some) criticals out of everything else they use (obviously excluding CS). If I take away */*/Soul, in particular Gloom, from Brutes, I'd find it hard to accept that SS/FA would be so nearly loved. Gloom is often the contributing reason to why Brutes ever get DPS higher than Scrappers.
When Scrappers get Super Strength, there will be no Brute Love*
*I mean this with the utmost of sincere joking, try as I might, there will still be pesky Brutes. -
Quote:Ah, I was only poking fun at you given the thread we hashed all this decision-making out in a couple months back (of which has since faded into obscurity while people have forgotten about it). I do agree, Barrier may be a welcome choice for those unwilling/unwanting to rely on stocking up T2 Purples, but Rebirth is such an awesome counterpart and I over abuse it on my Fire/FF Troller (45% Positionals, 75% S/L Resists) where those spikes of +Regen do amazing things to pull ones-self out of a very hot fire, and on my KM/SR which has proven an amazing way to balance getting through Keyes with zero deaths.Originally Posted by Werner
Yeah, I wouldn't call myself a diehard believer in Barrier. My initial expectation was that Barrier would be the best choice for Regen by a wide margin, so much so that I didn't even bother checking the math. I really should have checked, because it turns out I was wrong, and John_Printemps was right. Rebirth was a better choice for the high end Sword/Regens we were discussing. I still expect Barrier to be better for other primaries, but I'm not solidly convinced of this, no longer think it would be by a wide margin, and still haven't done the math.
My guess is that the less defense you have (and that includes whether you took Shadow Meld or not, and what your recharge is for it and Moment of Glory), the better Barrier becomes in comparison. -
Don't really post reflective build posts anymore, but I happened to be skimming through and had the build for someone else already in my "Others" folder, so why not, eh?
I'm going to try taking a reference to some other posts throughout the thread and emphasize them a little. Regen needs two things to survive: Recharge, and more Recharge. Everything else is secondary (but has a lot of sub notes about order of operations). So if we take everything else out the window, what do you want? You want enough recharge in the build to bring Hasten down to 118-121 seconds ("perma"). Easiest way to get this? Spiritual Core Paragon, two slots in Hasten, and 80% Global Recharge from set bonuses. If you break the math down like that, its actually pretty easy to find just 75-80% of additional +Recharge for a build. Why do you want Core Paragon T4? Because it has the largest olfactory spit out of 45% Recharge with the overclock of 66% (Making it superior to the Radial which only provides 33%; the fact that you get a Heal 33% with it is just icing on the cake*. If you can succesffully manage this, everything else in the build is like those 9-Block Party-Bag Puzzles with the horrible pictures of cats and parrots on them that you have to shift around the pieces until you go "Aha!"
Enclosed with my post will be a DM/Regen build only requiring a T4 Spiritual Core Paragon, and only two of the possible Accolades (Portal Jockey and Atlas Medallion as they are both rather easy to earn). I believe in "Cheap for the Masses," so the build costs are relatively low aside from one Purple set that is easily earned over time. The original "who-for" of this build was/is rather cheap/poor, so building on a budget was already a goal for it. Most of this build can be earned in about 400 million with patience, the rest can easily be obtained through the efforts of A-Merits and Astrals and a bit of Marketeer-ing. Some key notes about build choices: Built around the basis that Regen is difficult to supplement with Defense. Get S/L up to ~34% and a T2 Purple can pop you straight up to 59% (iCap), while a single T1 Purple can get you affordably up to 45%+ for regular game content (Soft Cap). Dull Pain on Perma, with some key HP bonuses and just the single Accolade puts the build a meager 15 points off HP Cap. Also strove to obtain 700%+ Baseline Regen before the application of Destiny's or Instant Healing. Unlike Werner, I'm not such a diehard believer that Barrier is Regen's only hope in the Incarnate Content. I've rallied the impact of Rebirth's +Regen being able to skyrocket them to the Regen Cap of 3,000% and battling for the helm of effectiveness. Between Rebirth +Regen and Instant Healing cycles, its possible to maintain a */Regen Scrapper at 1,000% or greater for 90% of it's play time (And, on average, most of the time it sits at 1,200-1,800%). It is the reverse thought-processing of valuing HP/Regen = Def/Res.
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* The Cake is a Lie. -
QR:
In regards to PL'ing another player/account. If it isn't working, you're doing it wrong. I kid, I kid. That's the fun way for me to put that). I took someone into the original CEBR map to demonstrate the process for them (as they too made a Claws/Fire for this). Within the first two missions we were able to evaluate the most secure what to use this map as a Farm for other toons, and it has worked rather flawlessly since. I can run the map solo and PL two others (at least, haven't bothered working with more than a few friends on this) while being the only one working. On average it takes about 80 seconds each run and I've used the same process each time.
Slam F1-F2-F3 while mass purchasing Reds. Continue slamming while clicking to Oranges, purchase at random for two seconds, switch to Purples, purchase for two seconds. Once this is done, while still clicked on Purples, purchase four, click Red, fill tray (while doing this, hit '5, 6', and then '7' if its up (Hasten, Energize, and Power Surge, respectively)). Run into the mission of which any and all of your PL goons should have run into the center "Death Zone" of the map (which, we've been using the Warehouse rendition as its a bit easier on the collection of enemies). Snag the two bosses and proceed Auto-Spin in center of mobs. Shortly around the time the third ambush waves collect on me I pop the rest of my tray and munch down any oranges that drop (as often at least two or three do, or I can combine what I don't get). Within the next ~50 seconds wipe out as much of the room as possible (mostly with just Spin), click the glowie and leave about five seconds before the inspirations would drop.
About 95% of the time this is pretty straight forward and nets 1,500 tickets for the Farmer. We did confirm that those additional in the map with you will get a ridiculously poor amount of tickets (as they should!), but attempting to contribute a single death before they die increases their ticket-pull by about 10%ish.
I've also done this with two CEBR's PL'ing two additional bodies on the map and we averaged about 60 seconds a map from load to completion using only the inspirations we go in with. We also tried this with the other sheep on the map feeding us a pre-assorted stack of inspirations. Usually a couple purples, a couple oranges, and as many reds as they could stomach to carry. This would allow extension of the map to 90/s-120/s if needed.
Quick Build Spec:
Spin: Dam/Rech, Three Procs, Acc/Dam
Lightning Field: Dam, Acc/Dam, Dam/End
Hasten: 6-Slot Rech
Power Surge: 6-Slot Rech
Energize: 4-Rech, 2-Heal
Fortunata 5-Of Purple Set in Salt Crystals and I use the Base Recharge Empowerment Buff. Most of the time I have Hasten up every other run, Power Surge up every skip of three or so. I don't use it that often depending on how lazy I'm being on a run. I considered the Gladiator's Net set as well, but the extra 120million Inf didn't seem worth it considering how stream lined I felt already.
Edit Note: Hasten six slotted for recharge with the otherwise 30-50% (depending in or out of mission) global recharge gives Hasten a total downtime of approx. 40/s (20 second short while running, double that once hasten drops into 40/s. Really is something like 50, but there's also period between where you've got an additional 20% from Lightning Reflexes to easily say at least 40 total downtime which turns into "up every other mission.") -
Quote:Originally Posted by Rinanir
Missed the point. You use macros to combine anything that isn't purple, orange or red into reds. However doing so with TopDoc's original macros would also eat all your greens, so the damage that does go through will whittle you down.
I've take out the respite combine and moved it to a macro of it's own so it doesn't eat all the greens while I'm spamming the convert/use macro. (Known as l1 in the OP)
Blindly mashing f1-5 will lower you speed, especially after level 40. At the most you can get 10 inspirations out of a spin, that is less than 3 rows out of 5 at 40. So you spam the combine macro and just make sure there is 10 slots available at all times. leaving the rest filled with anything that isn't purple, orange or red to have the potential to combine for more reds to push the speed of the killing higher.
I didn't miss any point. I'm saying saving the greens is wasted effort, they're better served as damage. Spent part of the day jumping 41-50, again with zero deaths and only spamming the macros to combine. In fact, by level 47 a friend joined me and I had him come in with a pre-stock of Inspirations to avoid the issue with disjointed insp-drops and finished each mission per the regular ~80-90s time frame. If you're popping Energize, the first 30 seconds of the run is a cake walk regardless, but beyond that you should be spending the time at 50% defense and 60+% Resistance, I've yet to die in the mission from a cause that was not 100% my own (IE: I turned away from the screen and stopped). And you forget, Spin isn't the only thing killing. Lightning Field takes two to three hits to kill a minion; and in all the runs I've made, mass group deaths are filling my tray from F1-F4, leaving one column behind--in most cases--of stuff that I couldn't condense or use immediately.
Edit: Of course this is all realtive to the fact not everyone's comfortable with the method, I just really really don't understand why anyone's dying. -
Quote:To quote myself:Originally Posted by Rinanir
The death thing is mostly an experience thing, my first one would die 1-2 times per arc pre 25, and then around once per arch after.
The second I've made was running using a level pact so was leveling much slower, got all the way to 34 before dieing. That was only because Steam had decided that I needed to update 3 of my games and the lag got so bad that I couldn't use inspirations
I also play slightly different than TopDoc with not combining my respites and using those instead. How he stays alive I don't know (How DO you stay alive with combining all the Respites TopDoc?), but combining all Respites got me killed a lot in the start, so I changed it and made a bind to specifically change Respites allowing me to still combine them, but removing the ability for the primary combine/use macro so it wouldn't eat the safety buffer.
Not using and abusing them like they should, and instead reserving them "just in case."
Natural pattern of inspiration usage: Reds to the Damage Cap, x4 Purps, x4 Orange, all before entering. Drop 4 and 4 of orange and purples in your tray and enter. After Alpha and Beta drop and the ambushes trigger, you'll already have a full tray again, your inspirations start fading out. Use your entire tray. Mobs die, keep using your tray. Don't pay attention to /what/ you're using so much as that you're getting them processed as quickly as possible to keep the tray empty for the next wave of dead mobs. If you're processing the tray, oranges and purples will naturally fall in surplus. Only once per ten to fifteen missions have I ever fallen below 50% Defense or 60% Resistance. In that instance, hover over a green or two until the next purple drops if you need to, but don't always expect to need a green.
TopDoc can, of course, respond otherwise, but this is how I inferred his original method, and so far has not proven wrong.
I think that's entirely optional. Although, I've only ever shifted Strike and Slash in on occasion to make sure Alpha and Beta die to get swarmed, past that Auto-Spin is usually sufficient while slamming down macros in between to complete a run. I never felt like cycling in the extra attacks made things go noticeably any faster (especially when they whiff) and just left it to Spin since its sufficient enough.Quote:Originally Posted by Renardine
Does anyone recommend using attacks other than Spin on auto?
Should I be filling in my attack chain with Strike, Slash and Sands of Mu?
Thanks for any advice.... -
I've run into a few people who've experienced difficulty with this whole CEBR thing, and each time the failures have been the same, regardless of the person. They're doing it wrong. Biggest thing I've come across is inspiration usage. Not using and abusing them like they should, and instead reserving them "just in case." You can't run this Super-Solo if you're afraid to put on a few band-aids.
But something I wanted to make note that I ran across and it amused me. I've only died four times from 2-41. First time was because I didn't change my difficulty correctly for the first mission and over-aggro'd without sufficient incoming Inspiration return. Second and Third times were caused by a Lieutenant, two consecutive runs, that activated Nimble Slash and it continued to animate, and damage me, until I died. Bypassing my defense and leaving my resistance to shame as it fwipped it's blade back and forth until I died from a steady and strong stream of numbers. Incident occurred in the 20's, and I've not experienced it since. Fourth time, I left the computer... no explanation needed, obviously I bit the dust. So for anyone "struggling to stay alive," you're probably doing it wrong.
Another thing that's been bugging me about this whole thing: I created the toon three days ago, logged him for an hour the first night, three hours the next time, and off and on throughout today for somewhere in between a ballpark of eight hours total time. When I clicked on one of the citizens in town for my "total hours played," they promptly informed me that I've been logged in for 66+ hours. That's impossible, the toon's only three days old, I've not been logged in for 2.75 days consecutively. So I have no idea how long I've really played him so far. There's apparently a time paradox in the AE system.
In regards to using other AT's for this process: Attempted with a pre-existing level 25 Ice/Elec Blaster out of curiosity. Given the higher damage modifier, I was looking at the speed potential, despite not being able to rack up a 675% +Dam bonus. Besides, I usually only spend the majority of my 90/s with the Brute at or around 450% anyway. Mission took me about 6-7 minutes, so definitely longer; but also included a couple deaths while I figured out that a cone was shifting aggro around in such a way that I was taking far more hits than I had as a Brute. An Elec/Elec Blaster does actually look promising though. Two AoE's and Lightning Field all by level six; it might only have a third the damage bonus, but he'd be doing twice the AoE to compensate with a higher scale. From my guess, there's maybe four Blaster primaries and three secondaries that might pull this off; and a handful of Scrapper/Stalker ones equivalent to Brute expectations. I'm actually looking forward the using one of them for a greater challenge to try and accomplish as close to the same as CEBR's can despite the damage cap. -
Quote:If you really want to stick to no Purple/HO's (Cost reasons?) Then you'll probably not want the PvP IO's either as they're just as expensive. In concern to the 5-Rule, LotG's are considered their own type of 7.5% Bonus and are exclusive from the others you might find like in Basilisk Gaze and Panacea's.Originally Posted by Kinetoa
How would you do an Elec/SR? This is how mine came out. I am not sure if I violated the rule of 5 or not, getting a bit confused. I tried to go with no purples or HO's.
With that in mind:
Tossed Spiritual Core and a couple of Accolades (the more easily attained ones), so make sure to turn those on.
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Quote:QFTOriginally Posted by Werner
Really, one nice thing about Super Reflexes is that as long as you're willing to take Aid Self, it doesn't need anything from the primary, and you can pretty much pick whatever primary satisfies your other goals for the build.
As a personal aside, SR leaves a lot of room for whatever you want (Despite needing to take nearly all of it). The ability to wade through mobs relatively untouched is awesome, so just consider whether you want to be a single target specialist, or an AoE machine and go from there. -
Kinetic Melee/Super Reflexes
Incarnate: Spiritual Core
Attack Chain: SB>QS>BB>SB>CS
Adds: Power Siphon, Aid Self (Used every 240/s), Practiced Brawler
Arcana Time: 6.888
DPS (PS Rech at 32.8/s): 255.15
Constant PS DPS: 305
Ramp-Up DPS: 279
Procs: ToD in BB and Mako in SB, Hecatomb in QS
If I replace Power Siphon with Build Up...
25/s Recharge DPS: 209.99
Burst DPS: 259.12 (10/s of Build Up's Duration)
Then for Katana, not including the two -Res Procs into the calculation since this is only being pulled from paper data I have on hand.
Alpha: Spiritual Core
Chain: GC>SD>GC>GD
DPS: 170
DPS w/ Build Up (23.4/s Rech): 242.5
Burst DPS: 340 (10/s of Build Up's Duration)
If I replace Build Up with Power Siphon...
PS (32.8/s Rech to mimic existing KM/SR for comparison) DPS: 332
Constant PS DPS: 435.43
Burst PS DPS: 382.29
I'm sure the -40% Res would just make that more amusing. Neither of these sets of numbers include Interface abilities either.
Edit: These two are using my personal KM/SR Build and a scrapped together Katana/SR to compare the two things that got brought up. Didn't see the sense in fiddling with Musculature as I was looking for the highest end chains I could manage and that becomes difficult without Spiritual involved and... I didn't want to post two sets of numbers anyway. This was meant to be a quick post
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I'm going to kind of mass quote respond here because there's a lot of ideas moving around in just one page that I want to try and hit on without getting too gummed up in the works.
On a personal level, I see this spreadsheet as an awesome assistant in trying to gauge the abilities of a character—notably in a static enviornment—and compare it to other characters. The biggest thing I've seen that can show how much variance is going on in these is by lining up my KM/SR and Claws/Regen. Both builds have similar potential damage and mitigation in their primary, but the secondaries are massively different in their true nature. The */SR Build scores 3073, has 48% Positionals, 398% Regen, a base HP/s of 31.1, and access to Aid Self and can run Tough, but doesn't. The */Regen (which is found in the 'Example' build with the spreadsheet) scores 3890 (both of these are with Rebirth +Regen on) . Since the Regen is publicaly accessible I wont dive into all his specifics, but he scores higher—mostly just on good looks and charm (significant +Regen). If I threw both of them into a pit and told them to "have at it," I'm certain the */Regen would floor sooner as its active mitigation is precognitive in nature, and has a huge margin for player error.
There is a reverse here, though, in recent late game changes. If I were to "iCap" (Incarnate Cap, 59%) both toons and put them through an iTrial, I'd probably give the benefit to the */Regen for having more in the way of dealing with the damage they still take, especially the large forms it can still come in. So no, the spreadsheet is not perfect in it's static-realm, but I definitely appreciate the information it does provide me, and how it can help with planning and building a toon. Flipping numbers around in the Matrix gave me a better grasp of determining directions for defensive building; what kind of impact is a 2% loss here versus a 1% gain somewhere else. This is, of course, all theoretical, but it helps if you want that min/max effort without a lot of the min/max effort.
I do also understand (and this was notably brought up by Werner on more than one occasion this month alone), that others who see the sheet are going to approach it with two potential responses. A.) Awesome, it helps, nice to have, but it's not perfect. Great for Guidance. B.) My 3,890 trumps your 3,073, your build sucks. Unfortunetly the only thing I can do for that is leave a slew of notes all over that say "Not Perfect, don't bet the house on it," which I did. I've taken almost all of Werner's actual notes and slathered the thing in them to help others understand it and hopefully etch subconsciously that it'll guide you, but it wont play for you, the rest is all Player Skill.
When it comes to attempting the inclusion of things like DPS, its partly a personal desire to try and find a way to quanitfy it as mitigation, and also just the morbid curiosity in me on if its even possible to simplify something that intrinsically complex into SUM(X/Y+4)*6(Z;W); and no, that's not seriously an equation anywhere, just an example of trying to put a value on what we are capable of configuring: X Mob, Y Damage, % Average, and say X now has a value of 15 and turn that into X= HP/15 so that we're trying to determine what X – DPS = Y. That is kind of a simple breakdown, but as it stands trying to blend the active portions of that together is less than that. There's ST DPS and AoE DPS, is AoE in ST or vice versa? How should AoE calculate into X, how should ST calculate into X; if this is a consistent flow of incoming damage in a static-realm that never ends, how quickly does X refill? What value does HP have?
I'm sure if I could find the answer to that, quantifying things like Controls will be easy sailing and everyone from Dominators to Masterminds can play around with this thing, but right now I don't see this as moving past being (nearly specifically) a better gauge for Melee toons, and only marginally approachable by anything else. Furthermore, if X – DPS = Y does not break down into a fairly simple process, then there's not much use in attempting to include it. Both on the side of effort involved in making it work, and in the amount of Input data that may or may not be required to achieve that. I already have a DPS spreadsheet, so the inclusion of attacks is very simple, just the inbetween is in question.
This also begs the confrontation with the Margin of Error (as Werner mentioned). Is attempting to figure out a wider-spectrum formula really beneficial, or will the data produced be too specific and ultimately a harmful tool if it starts going around saying "You must be THIS tall to ride." No matter what, above all else, Player Skill ultimate trumps any score this will put-out, and can push on the side of saying "where the spreadsheet is currently is sufficient enough."
Quote:In short, this is exactly it. The more I thought about ways to include a measurement of DPS against static damage, the more it started borderlining the idea of a lite program that took an input DPS value and weighted it against a mob, and as things died, replaced them based on either a flat Timer, or backlogged them if you weren't killing fast enough and put that against an overall score. It would, in a sense, be something that would run infinite until cut short and say "you killed A in B time producing C mitigation" and turn that around as a reductable value in the Matrix data.Originally Posted by Shred_Monkey
Heh... you know... at some point you do have to step back and ask yourself... am I creating a computer simulation to model the output of what is, in some respects, another computer simulation?
It's ok.. I've done the same thing.
Going that far is a bit unrealistic, so looking back at basic math equations to decide on a straight forward average, and this isn't even saying I'm looking in the right direction. -
Quote:The only place it has been announced was in Werner's Kat/Regen High-End thread where we (er, mainly I), finally got a hold of it from him and tweaked it out into a user-friendly form. There...are... Pictorial Guides on how to use it. In truth, there are note boxes all over the spreadsheet (put your mouse over any of the purple boxes) and they'll pop up. Unfotunetly I designed it to be saved and loaded with everything open, but GoogleDocs doesn't have that capacity. That's where the screenshots come inOriginally Posted by Granite Agent
The Survivability Test spreadsheet looks super cool. But how do you use it? I tried to import a MIDS build and it didn't seem to populate. Is there a thread where you discuss use?
Thx! The box for dropping a Mids-Chunk is just for reference for saving it, it wont auto-pop anything. Only thing you have to input are in the orange areas (Res, Typed and Positional Def in proper boxes, base Regen, and any additional clicks like heals or Tier9's); from there it'll calculate out your score at the top.
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Quote:Looking into this issue at the moment. Time is fleeting, though, but I do have the Survivability Matrix now and working with a friend in an attempt to infuse DPS values into quantifiable damage mitigation that coincide with the Matrix. So far, I am more cursing the spreadsheet and wanting some C++Originally Posted by Microcosm
Definitely, but dealing with an inaccurate assessment of its contribution is much better than leaving it out entirely.