John_Printemps
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Posts
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Joined
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Quote:This is the biggest trick, yes, but not completely unobtainable. 153.8% Global, T4 Spiritual, and specifically frankenslotting CS to maximize A/E/D/R enhancement (80/95/95/127) got 5.246/s. Another 10% somewhere would've taken it down to 5.1ish had I checked it before I closed mids.Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
I think you guys are missing the recharge needed for CS here. Gonna be tough going from 20 to 5.28(279%) for CS->SB->BB->QS->SB and 5.148(289%) for CS->BB->SB->QS->BB. -
SB>BB>QS>SB>CS would hit ~253 DPS versus ~245 using BB. The BB Doubled chain is just a bit easier to get.
Edit: Clarification on some poor sentence structure. -
SB>BB>QS>BB>CS is considered to be the optimal Kinetic Chain and (including a Hecatomb, ToD, and Mako Proc; as well as Power Siphon's arcanatime) you'd be looking at about 255 DPS with Power Siphon triggering once every 30 seconds avereraging about 104% boost. Although this is slightly upscaled considering there is the upswing and downswing in the damage boost, so I'd say 90% would be a safer average just to be sure, putting the DPS at ~245
Edit: Procless, you'd be looking at ~230 DPS -
Quote:I never said I wouldn't scavenge an attack or two if needed, but I strongly believe that 90% of your defensive structure can be completed before looking for additional answers in your attacks. I say this can be taken so far as to build a secondary so high that any primary (with a few slotting choices than can be made by any of them) can be plugged in and have exactly the same high level of attributed stats; and still have a solid, and fully slotted, choice of attacks (5-6).Originally Posted by Stargazer
I try to avoid absolute rules when it comes to character design. Designing a character is a set of trade-offs and compromises, and these trade-offs will vary with powersets, concepts, and preference. Sometimes this will involve sacrificing some offense, and sometimes sacrificing some defense.
There's two Mako's you can drop into a Kinetic setup that will optimize all attributes to common/standard levels that you might see from plugging a full set of something else. I don't really see Kinetic Combats as being a devaluing set.Quote:Originally Posted by Stargazer
A trivial example of this is that sometimes it might be worth leaving an attack 5-slotted if the extra slot can help you more elsewhere. However, using less than 6 slot is not the only way to sacrifice offense. One common example is using Kinetic Combat. Kinetic Combat is usually not an optimal way to extract offense from an attack, but for many powersets I generally feel that the defensive benefit it gives is high enough to warrant this sacrifice. (for SR, similar trade-offs can me made with Touch of Death/Mako/Scirocco for Melee/Ranged/AoE Defense)
I'm not sure if you'd followed the entire thought process for the build when it was modified from Arcanaville. 400% Regen (32 HP/s), 1900+ HP, 46% Positionals (Minimum), and the kicker challenge was Perma-Hasten. Arcana's build started out with ~46% Positionals, 1922ish HP, and 402% Regen. I included Perma-Hasten into the build at the cost of 20 HP, and 10% Regen, adding 1%+ to Positionals in the process. There really isn't another source of AoE you can pull that isn't going to sacrifice these values, and honestly, Armageddon is not that impressive in Dragon's Tail over Scirocco's. Putting it in the build actually drops Accuracy, raises End Costs, and only cuts 0.300/s off the recharge for an additional 5 damage (it goes from 168 Scirocco's, to 173 Armageddon, neither including Proc, that's only a 6% ED'd difference). To add to that, the Armageddon Proc could be added instead of the Dervish, but at the cost of a little Psi defense that's actually pretty welcome.Quote:Originally Posted by Stargazer
However, for a current high-level, high-cost SR build, I believe that there are enough options out there to reach soft-cap levels of Defense to make me reluctant to sacrifice too much in the way of offense to reach it.
For instance, you chose to 6-slot Dragon's Tail with Scirocco's Dervish in your example. Compared to 5-slotted Armageddon (all but Dmg/Rech), assuming 10% crit chance, this gives an average per-hit damage that is roughly 11% lower (8% with Focused Chi). To get the same average per-hit damage, you'd need a 28% Damage buff. In addition to this, DT would also recharge faster (even if you don't count the extra 10% Recharge bonus), and you would have the option of adding a 6th slot (for instance replacing the Damage Armageddon with a D/R, and adding an extra D/R from another set (edit: I actually tend to use a D/E/R from the other set. D and R end up beyond the ED cap anyway)), further improving the attack.
Since Dragon's Tail is likely to provide a significant amount of your damage output at x8, I would be reluctant to compromise with its damage output like that (though I'd gladly make similar sacrifices on some non-SR characters). The extra Defense is great, but I'd try really hard to find it elsewhere.
So all in all, the Armageddon is actually gimping the attack, in my opinion. -
Quote:KM's best DPS chain is BB > SB > QS > BB > CS, four attacks and one of them being the required Quick Strike. Smashing Blow, even at 144% Global Recharge w/ Hasten and the T4 Spiritual only drops down to 1.98/s recharge which is still .6/s too long to chain BB and SB back to back. QS has to be in the build to flip between. And, honestly, there's no reason to remove Focused Burst from the build, either. It may not be part of the chain, but its a solid ranged attack for picking off runners, and there's plenty of room in a KM/SR to include it.Originally Posted by Syntax42
You have too many attacks. You should only need 3 to make an attack chain if you get enough recharge. You will need Hasten in your build. Quick Strike is your lowest DPS power (aside from AoEs and the ranged attack) and should not be in the build at all. Focused Burst is lower DPS than Quick Strike and you probably won't need it. Your attack chain should probably be something like Concentrated Strike -> Body Blow -> Smashing Blow -> Body Blow.
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A data chunk would help emensley. Not everyone can get the data links to work for them (myself included). Having the KM/SR experience, there's a few things I could suggest, depending on what kind of cost you're looking towards. One thing I can see right off the top, though, is Repulsing Torrent. Unless you're really after the knockback from that power, Energy Torrent might serve you a lot better.
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I recall a day when these things used to be in pretty high demand; lately I haven't seen much wind about them. I know there was a thread about looking into Optimal Chains, and about the same time that went up I had been messing with spreadsheet to rebuild a DPS calculator to store a sheet on each character in my repertoire. While this isn't a highly coveted mass analyzer, it will help ease the leg work in calculations for what we can do on our own.
Follow the White Rabbit to GoogleDocs
Build Up, Hasten, Damage-Based Toggles, the transitional effects of a heal in an attack chain against a build's HP/s, secondary powers used throughout the course of a chain, and even the chain itself, calculated for Arcanatime, DPS, EPS, and Burnout, as well as extended damage buff powers like soul drain or power siphon calculated for a damage percent average. Just plug in the necessary numbers where they apply and the data will calculate where needed.
Figured since I made it, I'd go ahead and throw it out to the Scrapper Community for anyone else who might find interest in it. -
Quote:Is it 100% Accurate? No. Do I see it as the most likely answer to a problematic program? Yes. Just looking at Scrapper primaries, the only two sets I don't see this producing a data stream we already know the answer of, is Claws and Dual Blades. Claws may end up with Shock Wave somewhere in there that may devastate it's output, and Dual Blades has secondary effects that someone might want to chase. Knowing that the ultimate answer is unrealistic to expect from a program right now without some serious back sourcing and running power leaves the next best choice the most viable to expect. Every chain that what I'm suggesting may not be the most optimal, but it's often more than the average person can readily figure out on their own, and an even faster option for people looking to try out a new set and want a quick idea of what kind of chain they should be looking into it.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Your algorithm essentially generates a chain based on a heuristic guess: it presumes that heuristic actually generates the optimal chain which it is not guaranteed to do. Heuristic guesses are usually in the ballpark, but are often suboptimal which is why some people have thought about doing it the hard way: actually searching the entire attack chain space for the best of all possible attack chains.
Honestly, something simple like this would be a boon to the community, I think, perfect or not. If it was something that could be pre-stored with all the attack sets for each AT so you could just select the set, input a recharge expectation, and see a result? That'd be pretty awesome, optimal or not.
Of course, after years of fiddling with builds and having access to Mid's, I personally can often flip through a set and see the chain in a few seconds, so obviously the easiest way to develop this program is to just hard-wire the interwebz into your brain Arcana, so we can dump these process trees somewhere awesome enough to handle the work load
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Quote:Originally Posted by Arcanaville
One of the heuristic checks though was something I thought would eventually speed things up a lot, except I never got around to finishing the code for it. Basically, it was a loop detector. If you're looking for the best 30 second chain, there's no point in looking at the chain A->B->C->A->B->C->A because the powers just keep repeating. That chain is just A->B->C. So A->B->C->A->B->A is a valid search item, but A->B->C->A->B->C is not. That part of the tree could be pruned.
Furthermore, I tried to see if this rule made sense, and under what circumstances. If you think about it, if A->B->C->A->B->A is a good chain, when why isn't A->B->A->B an even better chain? In the above chain C is following A and B, but A is also following A and B. Assuming recharge is not the issue, it cannot be true that A is the best choice sometimes and C is the best choice at others when confronted by the same situation. So the rule I was trying to create algorithmicly was this one: once you've decided to pick X in a certain situation, you are required to pick X whenever that same situation recurs. However, that turned out to be a sticky thing to code algorithmicly, due to the complexity of defining "situation" in a way that would work. It has to be based around the limits of recharge, but its not necessary that the same situation involves identical time to recharge. It could be different, but still close enough to make the powers become available on the same schedule.
I'd snip more, but this is actually all relevant to what I'm thinking; and I think what you said kind of goes back to my edited-in concern on my other post so we're looking closely at the same issue.
I do think that we may be looking at the same issue on two different levels of complexity, though. I'm going back to a program code from my C++ courses' second week. Input four equations with different values for all eight integers, solve each, and output the data based on highest to lowest. Albeit this is questioning some additional steps (recharge markers and the like), but I don't see that ultimately taking a .5/s process and making it move up to more than 15-20 seconds, maybe 40 at best, 60 seconds at absolute worst (post timer end, for data compiling).
I do see the inherent fault in base values for recharge causing an abnormal spit-out of data. But, say, an obtainable quantity that is most likely required for an average high-end chain would be ~250% Recharge (100 in the attack, 150 Global). Input the base values, have the program immediately alter the value upon input and save that value as the input value for that field so that when the "chain timer" runs, it doesn't waste additional time in that phase.
Adding the recharge in to eliminate the likelihood of an undesired attack repeating itself would prove the best potential scenario. If Power #1 recharges in 4.5 seconds, and animates in 2.1, flag, find next power, #2 animates in 1.2, recharges in 1, flag, find next power, #3 animates 2.17 seconds, recharges in 3. This scenario, the code will catch that Power 2 is now recharged, is the best potential choice, and choose it. By this point, Power #1 will now be recharged, and selected (which is desired), and you start popping into the best chain, eventually timing out the system so that you get 1 > 2 > 3 > 2 Repeat (Which, in this model, is Midnight Grasp > Smite > Siphon Life > Smite). This does bring up a small concern though (as sort of mentioned before). Some rare occasions an attack may be superior and not get caught correctly in the chain without a modifier that would correctly place it's value in the processing. Siphon Life is the only one offhand that I can think of, though. I thought Follow Up might be a concern too, but it's DPA is sufficient to keep it above some of it's lower tier'd counterparts. It would not, however, hurt to add some kind of modifier that would provide a more appropriate value to those few powers based on their importance/overall benefit.
Based on the goal of finding "the most optimal", no these situations wont include mid-range or high-end survival chains, but at the same time it's not entirely impossible for this to be extended in a scenario that would include these potentials. In fact, adding an additional input into the questionnaire portion to ask for Recharge % to reduce input base percents by, which should give the most likely mid-range chains (but this is more assumption than contemplated possibility and may just turn back around into what Arcana was talking about, and getting something that is close, but not necessarily the best, even for a mid-range goal).Quote:Originally Posted by Werner
I agree that it doesn't solve the problem. It does make sure that these attacks get used as often as possible, but that won't necessarily be optimal. For instance, it might not find Smite -> Midnight Grasp -> Smite -> Siphon Life, because there are survivability chains that spam Siphon Life faster, like Siphon Life -> Smite -> Boxing.
As for a scenario like with Siphon > Smite > Boxing? Exclusion of any attack that can't be reduced to 2-3 seconds from the input field, and this would most likely produce that so long as everything else it would worry about it eliminated (which is actually only Midnight Grasp). This is more a pre-thought by the user, and does not ultimately output the desire of shoving everything in and expecting your specific desire; but then again this is asking for a Ferrari when you can only afford a Pinto. -
Speaking from programming experience (mind it has been many years, and I've not kept up with any of it so my value in actually designing it is zero), a program could be designed to take a set of variable inputs and designate the most likely combination based on a given timer. The way I'm seeing it, have the code request "Input Variables," which would be based on a set of identifiers.
- Attack Name:
- Recharge:
- Arcanatime:
- DPA:
Ask for the attack name to identify it in a memory dump with the associated items. Programmed they would each have a primary identifier and a sub identifier (like A1, A1.R, A1.A, A1.DPA). After each Attack que, it will ask "Additional Attacks? Y/N", type Y, enter; it will prompt the next attack and be dumped into memory as identifier A2 (etc). Do this for all attacks in the Primary (Or secondary, depending on the AT) that you want accounted for in the calculations.
Once all attacks have been entered, it will prompt "Begin Timer?" This will initiate a timer with ...say, 30 second timer (this seems enough to run most possibilities), and a secondary clause. The program would be coded to begin a string that asks "Highest DPA divided by Arcanatime with Recharge Modifier 0. Begin Recharge" This would trigger the highest damaging attack and pit it's recharge into a separate timer that, while active, will give the attack a value of "1". Program will then ask "Highest DPA, divided by Arcanatime, with Recharge Modifier 0. Begin Recharge" Now, as the timer ticks, two attacks will have a "1" value, when their recharge is completed, the "1" will be removed and it will be available for the next prompt. Repeat this process until either A.) Timer runs out, or B.) A single attack has been executed three times. When done, output string data Attack Names. A value of three attacks is enough to cover that the chain has begun looping over itself, and you can devise based on pending output where the chain begins and ends.
This then poses the question of sets like Dark Melee and Claws where other attacks may supersede things like Siphon Life and Follow Up that you would actually /want/ in the chain. This is probably best corrected by adding an additional question when you input an attack. "Does this contain +Heal or +Dam, Y/N" so that when the power is input, selecting yes will add 100 to the DPA to insure that the attack is run first in the chain (this should, in most cases, be a sufficient additive, and if not, should put the attack into spot 2 in the DPA run). This doesn't readily solve the issue though.
I put concern in using base values for the input attacks as some areas like Smite may not get contributed twice (immediately, or in the right area) that can mislead the most optimal chain, but at the same time this is giving you the greatest base chain that you can eliminate from based on increasing recharge. So a dual run might be optimal, and could actually be coded into the program to run two chains. The first one based on the input values, and the second that performs a 200% Reduction on recharge to give a more likely High End chain. -
BB > SB > QS > BB > CS I believe it supposed to be the best chain achievable. Couldn't tell you the recharges offhand, but Perma-Hasten+Spiritual is pretty much a must to get that; but it only takes 70% Global and Hasten with two Rech IO's to get that with T4 Spiritual. Focused Burst is not really all that great in an attack chain. Pulling data from my own KM build, FB fully slotted out for max potential does 350 damage, QS and BB in that same two seconds does 417 damage not including a proc in both powers making that potential spike up to 470-540 damage.
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Quote:And that is your belief, and nothing more than a misnomer on your part. You cannot expect someone else to play the game the way you want them to play it, some people like playing with the cheat codes on. Number crunching and build construction are not for everyone, and that is why many people come to the forums looking for direction in these matters. And in regards to builds and searching, regardless of being stickied to the top of the thread, not everyone sees them, nor does everyone understand what's there when the information may or may not be up to date. How is anyone supposed to know a two year old guide is still relevant if no one says "Hey, this is still relevant." Directing to another source (like a guide or thread on a topic), is far easier than telling them to "do it themselves."Originally Posted by Syntax42
It is my belief that if you invest time and effort into something, it will be more rewarding to you in the end. If you just hand someone a level 50 character with a build, they probably won't have much fun with CoH and will likely quit soon. If someone takes the time to learn how to make their own build, they are more likely to keep playing.
Edit: I don't want you to think I'm trying to breath fire down your throat or anything, but an abrasive response when someone is seeking help (however you may receive their request) is more likely to scare someone away than stay a part of the [forum] community; and that redirection to alternative sources is just as efficient for you to say "I think you should try it on your own, and here's some places to learn." -
Quote:Ditto-ing this for emphasis, and adding that instead of criticizing someone for offering support, or striking down those who request it, look to other avenues to support them. In the situation of someone seeking build advice and direction, why not offer instruction on how to find a guide, or, in fact link to one: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=127128 There's been a comprehensive (and still legitimate) guide available on Shield Defense since early '09.Originally Posted by Werner
Someone asked for a build. Someone supplied a build. If they want to learn to fish, they can learn to fish. If all they want to do is eat a fish, there's nothing wrong with asking a fisherman if you can have one, and nothing wrong with the fisherman saying "sure".
Why should everyone have to learn how to make a good build? It's a GAME. People find their fun in different ways. I like making builds. Some people just like playing, but want a good build to play with. Nothing wrong with asking for one. Nothing wrong with giving one. -
Quote:do eet!Originally Posted by mauk2
now, i'm seriously thinking about gutting the toon, renaming, and building this instead on the chassis.
Soooo..... Gooooood...... :d -
Quote:What want nice was your retort to their own use of time. Someone came asking for help because they got lost in build madness, if anyone decides to lend a hand its their prerogative to do so. Besides, its not like they handed over a pile of gold, just a working frame.Originally Posted by Syntax42
That wasn't very nice. Making a build or working with one in Mids' helps someone understand their power sets better, and make builds on their own. Its the "give a man a fish" or "teach a man to fish" principle.
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Quote:And, now it doesn't:Originally Posted by Arcanaville
One potential problem with the build I just noticed is that it relies on Enzymes.
So now that we've cleared that DilemmaCode:| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1437;706;1412;HEX;| |78DA65936D53524114C7F7722FA2F804898F68E41320E095DBC39B9AA9B1CC194D0| |A457B5119DD60C55B0C325C2AAD37F5156A469BA9DE95D5872BFB0676F89F1599E1| |0ECC6FF77FCED93DE7EC6E667FA94788F7B784D677A76CBB6E3E57A8D9D5AAAC793| |376C929742ED60A76C58EB93E2144F8CC96CFC8B29466C6AED51DBB9C5FACD5DD48| |D3B6247764C59566EE5563B62177CA725FBAC195CAAEACC94ADD3C1BF8B37B7B653| |35795B2D88BE1B253DAAD3B9512CF32B2E8149C8AECC16C4DDA553205EF569D8279| |7BAF7890CFD86E5DD60E4628AF04FD0F1B09E23BF58A478498F03C063A9E00816D2| |0FA1488E5814C234A4394470CD2C0124608E80C00F7C9416307436307CF3D1D0EAB| |406819185A018EC85D5759E83B02EB95808E5D20E000D117C0DC4BE03345795594F| |7BBA721F97F308E81F19FC0CC2F20F61B98A2281FA7A6F99258E822234B962EB688| |AE49480F48EA56CEDD8D3A62623A046864E9E5CD45EF189CD749EA575DE9E7A227B| |91D73DC9C2FE4105409078B88B9F08C6103A102E723B94C2E7A83A206545A03F390| |74920659D20787693021462EA393E343984D5B9819E437ACD21FBE46307431A2F89| |56CA32A99D1D75876EC0D639FB33800126F19EF80098A0A739416DEE21A7340C4D7| |D898739A604B2C8C98D43A66A94DE01BF945D4BE91288EE452921167CC01930920F| |101519B1435A57A3B850A8498568CAA8AB6C867561DC9EC75B6E5A80F71A5C5F998| |8FE9D892AA79C9236C92E212E639ED79CE778B424D0E35CC14FC16D20C8B6102D60| |290A3DDD32AC3349FBEC5C76EF12518379A4F8D7EF489B556E506279C35D4CB224D| |8357C4683EB6D36D7FA3F13C7EDE32EE0A341FD0E91F7FF3ED098DEFCBDF56290EE| |9E45CF26AABB8D27D0F91E710973FB3027146F5E426EED5BFF3285DFB88BA7B0E19| |9F803E6E68BAADD6449B62B52957DB942B6DCAFA00ADAFAAB65B3A906D19FF07F5F| |FDF26| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
On the fly, what did I do to get here? Shifted, mostly. I performed the basic essentials, switching Enzymes with Cytoskeletons to keep the build "Legit," took the third slot out of Hasten and put it in Aid Self to replace the Interrupt (Note: A Personal building tool - never steal from your attacks, they should always be the last place you look. I will always try and build up the defense in as many ways as I can before I slot any attacks to make sure that I have as much room to improve the attacks without punishing the rest of the build). Also moved the Regen Tissue, upon request.
So, these moves did afflict the build, cutting AoE, and dropping Hasten down to 120.##/rech. Preferring to keep Hasten just a hair under 120, I saw an opportunity in Eagle's Claw and switched it over to a Hecatomb format. Lost a couple percentage points on endurance, but also dropped some net eps into the build as a whole, and squeezed another 10% Recharge, so now Hasten is at 119. Just enough to keep it tight. This move ended up cutting 15 HP and dropping the build below the 1900 mark, desiring to keep this goal, I swapped Fighting and Senses slots, and dropped a LotG threesome to restore the 15 HP I stole from EC (done entirely on the basis that melee was sitting at 48% and could spare to notch down without hurting the performance of the build). In regards to the gimped AoE, I immediately popped the second slot out of Elude and scooted it over to Evasion as another Cyto, and brought AoE back to 47%. Looking at the perspective that Elude is only a beneficiary tool, rather than a primary prospect; I felt no shame in stripping the slot I stole for it in the first place. M/R/A Still stays collective at, or slightly above, 47% now and all previous build arrangements were maintained.
Edit:
There's just literally no room for it, unfortunately. Hasten far outweighs in value over a little combat mobility (imo), especially when the Defense from CJ isn't needed, nor missed. And with as functionally well as this build can perform on it's own, add a team scenario where someone might be adding a bit of +End, and one could easily be running around with Ninja Run on all the time anyway.Quote:Originally Posted by Stargazer
Personally I wouldn't want to lose CJ. It offers (together with Hurdle) great combat mobility, and while Ninja Leap offers much of the same, it doesn't quite offer as much control (and the extra Def is nice too).
It's certainly a matter of preference though. -
Quote:Yeah, I had noticed that, but I never bothered to question whether that was "WAI", and just built around it anyway.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Incidentally, Mids intrinsicly knows the rule, so when it allows you to take five LotGs and five +7.5% recharge bonuses on top of that, its actually implementing the correct rule.
On a side note, I noticed something in the build that bugged me, and made a change to CAK. The difference between 390% Regen at 140ish +MaxHP and 400% is only ~1 HP/s, moderate loss for the change I saw that puts another 5% Global Rech into the build. A change that, if my estimations are right, puts the build into SK > CS > SK > CAK Chain, puts Conserve Power just under 180 seconds (so 90 up, 90 down) and, tossing Conserve on every 90/s, the build (estimating 20 end per chain over 6 seconds is a -0.23eps burn, over add three focus chi's to toss it up to -0.35eps) should be fully sustainable. Burn about 32ish end with CP down (didn't really count Aid Self since it kind of washes itself out in it's animation time agianst your EPS gains), but net 90-100 while CP is up, so it will wash out it's end use altogether.
(Just slotted CAK like I had slotted EC, the chunk below just also includes the power moves to put Elude into the build. Which, btw, 95/s Downtime on Elude).
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Quote:You never asked :3Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Interesting. I'm going to study this, although this would have been useful to have 20 billion inf ago
And, no, I wasn't aware of this snafu, I've generally built around the LotG's and other 7.5% Bonuses as being one in the same. I never realized there was a minor technicality that allowed one to over-collect them like that.Quote:Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The rule of five applies to the *names* of the bonuses, if you are not aware. For all set bonuses that offer +7.5% recharge, the bonus is actually called "Improved Recharge Time 5." Its the 5th tier of recharge buff. LotG's buff is special: its called "Luck of the Gambler." As a result, the game thinks its a different buff. You can have up to five +7.5% recharge bonuses from sets *and* up to five LotG's separate from that. -
Quote:Okay, so the idea of trying to take a 400% Regen SR Build, and stick Hasten into it, keep it soft capped, and ...not take out Eagle's Claw? First thing that popped into my head was http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHxIssSROjk I don't know why, but I got this major Scrapper mindset of unstoppable SR's, a few minutes later I pulled out my KM/SR, moved six slots and added four billion inf worth of nine enhancements and found that I too could manage 400% relatively quick, so I took KM out, plugged MA in, and there it was.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I've probably stared at this build longer than I've though about all other builds for all other characters in seven years combined. Its really easy to get trapped in Mids and never get around to building and playing, so just decided to build it. And on the subject of Elude vs soft-cap, another decision I agonized over was Super Jump or Elude. Not a near-perma Elude of course, but a panic button Elude. I decided I wanted the travel, but I was biting my lip on that one also. Murdok's build now has me questioning the decision also. I wouldn't want to live within Elude's non-perma restrictions myself, but the more I think about the advantages of Elude, the more I think it would be nice to have around. I guess I could live with Ninja run and jump pack temp powers.
So, a gift:
There's only a, what is it, 15 HP loss and -4% Regen to get Hasten in there with a 120/s recharge (Results in a mere 1 HP/s loss, so really a wash in my opinion to get it). Also tossed Combat Jumping and bumped M/R/A up a percentage each in the process (I subtracted and it added, I lurves illogical math). Super Jump is in there, but with Quicken and Swift and Sprint and Ninja Run you can easily run at SS levels and have the height benefit of Ninja Run; this has been an incredibly tolerable (and actually desired, since it takes not real power investment) path on my own SR. So, given that, rearrange until Elude is into the build, draw a slot from somewhere (interrupt out of Aid Self?) to toss another Rech into Elude and...well, that's a pretty awesome Safety Option.Code:| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1436;703;1406;HEX;| |78DA6593DB521341108667B31B0EE194C82140C0184EE1902C895AE59D168A94415| |603012F548C4B3284D554486DA282DEF80C5A0556A9778AFA701EDE20F6FE3D8454| |2505F54DFFD3DDD3DD3B631DADF60AF1FE96D0FAEF94ED5A2D9F2BB876B52A5DBF6| |5979C42D78A5BB02B76BCD62984889CEFE52D5996D2B46CB7EED8E5FC8A5BAF459B| |7BAB725F566AD2CCBDF2AC2DB95F9647B216CA540EA42B2B75F37CD19B3D3C2C9B1| |BD2AE3A95521F8C35A77450272B002B5795B2C81B962C3A05A7224377AB4EC1BC7D| |583CCE5B76AD2EDDE351AA6B91FE4FBC02F16BF8C563425CF89E001D4F81E02E30F| |70C88E701CB8BD2106588615AA485715FF7D0950186D6819135E001B96BECEED3D8| |DD77832C43175D8AA7E4A2AB3AF47D818C25A0E300083AC0DC0B60E125F089A2FC9| |CD8EFFFE6F3A4C077C61930F10398F909C47F01618AE2B61BA233820AB364777322| |D11D43EE8724F5B0A4F570D1D34380463B7D2ABE6F1CCE9B240DA80E07D83916041| |638E6333984547FA17B84497129C3E08E86B8BFCBDCFB0237BD455183AAACC12424| |9DA46196F4E1B0E66518BD8A1E2646604DA76119E41756E587D5904715BFD0DE982| |A66EC35D28EBF611C7115C7C0E25BC63B608AA222AAC7C812FB31E28CC94EEF7C3E| |727287879003BED24E541D187D0EE72B92B1C72800B1221FC8B3D8A6A829D5C2942| |A7D5A314A7BB39C519FE5B3E622884A6CC24A6C03391AC6BCFA56F35CE6197DBB25| |7579974E7123123731BA24274A728624D7BE43194CCE609809B82FA718698609A49| |7811C159652534AF14D48F31548F38598309A2F8EFEE827365A15FECA5943BD2F92| |3438458DE6936BEC06BC91F07AAF65DD1D6C3EA2C6EF40F3CD098D93FE6995E621F| |DBD900C6D5DF3DE76FF239439C24398C9409CD901FE5DB8EBDA07F4DB7BC2F808F4| |F33C536D3D2EB629E936E57A9B72AD4DD91CA4FCAA5DBBA5F56CCBFA3FEDF2DFF8| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
Nine 7.5% bonuses? Did I miss something between LotG's and PvP IO's? I pulled your rendition to check it out, and seeing some serious bonus overage unless I'm not aware of something between those particular items.Quote:Originally Posted by WernerWerner's last rendition of the "Perma-Elude" -
Quote:To try and bring this back around circle and answer a couple of questions you asked that kind of got over swept and break everything down a bit into summary.Originally Posted by Bohmfalk
I've recently dusted off a lvl 40 spines/dark armor scrapper that I haven't used in a while, and am trying to get him to 50. What should I be building for when slotting IOs? Should I focus more on def, rech? I know I definitely need to focus on end/recovery, but other than that, I really don't know. Any help would be appreciated.
You can build to pull out recovery for yourself and produce around +20-25%, but the aspect of how much defense you can generate now far outweighs this (especially with Incarnate Cardiac). So, yes, Defense is a solid direction to go from here, and pull Recharge while you're at it. Combat Jumping, +3% Steadfast (In Tough), Weave, and Maneuvers will start you out with around 15% Global, from there you definitely want to try and reach either 32.5% to a series of areas or max one out all the way. In this sense, either take S/L and carry it all the way to 45% (Really, 46% would be ideal), and then dump leftovers in other areas; or get melee, ranged, and aoe up to 32.5% each so that, as a whole, you can pop one small purple and soft cap to 90% of your incoming potential damage.
Taking this into account, I can answer your question about Cloak of Fear versus Oppressive Gloom. Simply put, OG is counter productive to a defensive build, as it's spending the life you're trying to protect, to...protect yourself. With this, the -To Hit CoF generates "stacks" with your defense, and outside of needing to work on the power's inherently poor accuracy and much higher end cost, it's more beneficial to you. If you were working more towards a resistance boosting goal, or a general build, I'd suggest OG. Although, in either scenario, it's a preference of experience and opinion. -
Quote:Ah, Werner, how you've made my day with something so simple.Originally Posted by Werner
smashy-smashy -- tanky-tanky -- survivy-survivy.
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Quote:This is close to my preferred method of taking Maiden on. If there's a couple of rangers available on the team, keep them constantly moving at range, and keep the majority of people in melee so the patches stay in one consistent spot, and move back as they start to drop, pulling Maiden as you go in a large circle. Whole fight lasts maybe five minutes max.Originally Posted by DarkPaladinLoki
Also, has anyone tried the group hug method for attacking BM? The whole team stays as one close knit group and just moves around to avoid patches. That way the patches are essentially only ever in one spot.
Edit: Should note, after spending a less than stellar run with a team for a considerable length of time, I became pretty familiar with the whole "Battle Maiden and her Blue Patches" thing, and have become pretty against her being locked down in any fashion that I can't keep her moving away from the patches that she's most likely going to be in the middle of. I've also come to seriously dislike Phantom Army when fighting her for the same reason. They never move, she never moves, blue patches just build up and you're stuck kiting her. On a team that lacks range, this becomes a very slow (and potentially unwinnable) scenario. -
For the record, speaking straight to you, Desmodos, the build I originally posted was a personal build. One I designed to run with teams on cranked settings to be as survivable as possible given how easy it is for one Scrapper, doing loads of damage, to grab all the aggro in a heartbeat. Personally I hate Impale's animation and time, and I've never been much to care for Ripper, either. Knowing that I'd be teaming in situations where my burst AoE was more important than my (in my opinion) lack luster ability to take out individual targets, I focused the build in that fashion. Since the whole issue of "needing a build to go against" came up, I merely pulled the one that was convenient--in this case, my own. Is it possible to build something similar including Ripper and Impale? Definitely. In fact, you could easily replace Fire Blast/Fire Ball to do it and not cause any real alterations.
So yes, I could easily be ... uh, "crazy" if you will. The strange part is that no one else bothered to see that I'd done something so outlandish and tried to correct it
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Quote:Originally Posted by Auroxis
I'm really having a hard time figuring out why you can't understand that endurance is required to do damage, and that having to invest less in endurance gives you more options to increase your damage.
Endurance is required to exist in the game, but it is not a direct proportion to damage. Yes you need endurance to attack, but what you're failing to catch is that a */DA is, in fact, not running out of endurance like you think it is. This is where you are grasping at straws and trying to stay afloat in a sea of overwhelming evidence against your theory. You're like the Freud of this conversation. People once thought it was solid before they realized it was false.
The investment required to sustain a DA reasonably is very little. You say you'd rather take Musculature over Cardiac or Spiritual? Fine, you can take it, that's your prerogative, but I want you to remember that you're not actually getting 45% out of that power. It adds the enhancement after you've already slotted, after you've already ED'd. You'll have to burn the shards and the time and the favors to get 29.7% (Or 21.78 if you take the Radial). Okay, congrats, you've earned your Musculature, but now you're falling behind in the recharge department because you didn't take Spiritual and I've already compensated for recharge in the DA build, you're going to really have to push those slots to cover for the loss and try and keep up. Unfortunetly, because you did this, you also started falling behind on your other options, like defense. So when you faceplant, I'll leave road markers for when you get back on your feet because you couldn't keep up.
This is fundamentally the direction you've desired to take with this debate. You were, after all, the one who retorted "You took a blue, I took a red, now I have more damage than you." Without actually reading the entirety of that sentence. The whole of this has become a pretty asinine farce. I thought I could be generally civil about it and try and bring some reason, but, as the interwebz proves, I can't, so I'll let the dust settle where it may. -
Okay, so I'm curious on something, and I figured I can draw this out of those who've spent a lot of time with Invul. When it comes to soft capping the types, how significantly is anyone relying on Invincibility to get there? I've been fiddling with builds for an MA/Inv concept off and on and haven't been happy with them. I can get relatively high for S/L/EN/NE with only one foe in range, but I'm having to crank it up a few to get softcap on F/C; I've not been satisified with this answer. So, instead of cranking through a half dozen more builds, I thought I'd pose the question to see which direction people actually go. If a 5-10 saturation is being accounted for when reaching typed defenses or not.