Jibikao
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Posts
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Quote:Wow... !!!!!!!!!! Tears of joy.Originally Posted by Synapse
Oh. One thing to note (and this might have been obvious to some, but I think it's best that I spell this out so that there isn't any confusion) is that you basically subtract the windup time from the total cast time you guys see in the real numbers. For example:
Assassin's Strike for Kinetic Melee says it has a cast time of 2.67s. Once you remove the 2 second wind up the power has a .67 cast time. So, when you strike with this power out of hide, it will have a .67 cast time.
The obvious problem is that some Assassin Strikes have longer cast times than others. Eventually I'd like all Assassin Strikes to have a 2 second wind up and 1 second cast time. This way you always have a 3 second total cast time (including interruptible wind up) when hidden and a 1 second cast time out of hide.
Again, that likely won't come until after i22.
Oh, please one last question. From the way it looks, I would say Spines may get the most out of it because it has relatively weak ST damage but with this change, a Spine user can start with BU + Throw Spine + Spine Burst + whatever and then finish off the remaining foe (likely a boss) with a Focus x 3 Assassin Strike. That will be a no brainer start up then vice versa (BU + AS + Placate + Throw).
Sets like MA and EM have no AoE and most likely people would take one from patron/epic. Is there any plan to add Assassin Focus to patron attacks? I ask this because I know my Martial Arts usually starts with BU + Balls of Lightning on a large mob (large to full team situation) and it would be nice if I can build Focus using patron. That's all. :P -
Quote:Cool beans.Originally Posted by Synapse
Yes. There is a plan. However, this likely won't happen at launch. We're definitely aware of this issue.
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Quote:If Assassin Strike is going to be a big part of how Stalker competes at top-end ST damage, is there a plan to "normalize" all Assassin Strikes? Ninja Blade and Broadsword have 3.67s while Kinetic's is only 2.67s.Originally Posted by Synapse
At this point we're tweaking dials until we're happy with where the archetype is in general. This change isn't intended to put them in an absolute place. But, I'd like to have this change make Stalkers more competitive in the single target damage arena.
Synapse -
Quote:freaking please no!!!!!!Originally Posted by gameboy1234
lol black hole
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Quote:I was confused by that typo at first. I thought an out-of-hide AS does index 7 + demoralize but still have interruption. Synapse already cleared that up.Originally Posted by Leo_G
Lol how are you guys getting so confused?
The shorter animation is dictated by being hidden or not, the super Assassination dmg + demoralize is only usable while hidden but comes with the fact it is interruptible and slower. Hide basically changes the function of AS; burst damage + AoE mitigation vs high DPS.
Where does it say AS out of hide has "shorter" activation time? I know Focus gives 33% per stack and with 3 hits, you are more than 100%.
Looks like the design goal for this is to use Assassin Strike. Use it and embrace it.
I just feel sets like Spines will get more benefit out of this because it can start the fight with BU + Throw Spines (to get the aoe benefit) while building Focus for Assassin Strike out-of-hide. So you start with Throw Spine, Spine Burst and maybe Rippers and then you have a 100% critical AS on the left over bosses. That's like a no brainer. Sets like MA are still stuck with mostly ST damage (although this problem is more less of a concern if you take patron aoe).
Ah...this brings another question, will patron attacks gain Focus? Gotta ask that! -
Quote:Don't Kheldians have 2800 max cap just like SoA? I can't remember if it's 2800 or 2400.Originally Posted by Sermon
Any chance you could look at this for Kheldians as well?
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Quote:We can't wait to test! Thanks for looking into Stalkers again. Yeah that typo did scare me a little at first. heheOriginally Posted by Synapse
I think it's safe to say that the original design of some archetypes differ from reality. Changes like the ones mentioned in this thread are the result of seeing a problem and then choosing to redefine the archetype's original design or to stick with their original design.
The case of the Stalker changes I think it's a bit of both. We definitely don't want to completely change the stealthy flavor of the archetype, but a the same time we want to more strongly define them as a competent single target damage dealer. As I've mentioned earlier I can't wait for you guys to hammer on this, poke holes in the design and help us make this change be as positive as possible.
Synapse
I guess when beta starts we can have more "clear" goals, like "Does Stalker match Brute/Scrapper damage on his own on a regular basis?". -
Quote:But if you are back to "hidden status", then you are back to the old AS with index 7 + demoralize?Originally Posted by BrandX
I figured it'd be the Hidden Status that speeds it up or slows it down (for different amounts of damage and effects).
I guess when you are out of hidden, you still get a "buff" icon which suppresses stealth. -
Quote:So you hit with certain attacks to gain a "buff" (Momentum) so the other attacks activate faster.Originally Posted by BrandX
That mechanic is kinda what Titan Weapons is all about.
1 attack, 2 different animation times.
Could this Assassin Focus be the "Momentum" that speeds up Assassin Strike?
I mean you need to gain some kind of "buff" icon to shorten the activation time right? I don't think you can have an attack that has two separate activation time without any buff since getting back in "Hidden Status" (a buff?) actually reverts back to the old activation time.
Maybe the whole Stalker AT feels like Titan Weapon afterall... LOL -
Quote:If the design goal can't increase Stalker's DPS to match or surpass Brute/Scrapper, then it defeats the purpose. The current Stalker can surpass some Brutes but not all of them since their fury increases secondary damage.Originally Posted by BrandX
All I ever wanted personally.
I did feel my KM/WP Stalker was less survivable than my DB/WP with equal slotting, which didn't bother, but the feel of lower damage? Meh. And all I wanted was equal to, not looking to surpass at all.
Of course, I freely admit, I play my Stalkers like Scrappers with a stealth power. -
Quote:I hope it's not too hard to create two separate activation time for the same power. It sounds "buggy" to me but we'll see.Originally Posted by Zem
Yeah, this is my guess....
Assassin Strike when NOT hidden:
1. Scale 2.5 damage
2. Uninteruptible with shortened animation time.
3. Scale 2.5 random critical at Stalker's current random crit chance PLUS an unspecified bonus %-chance due to Assassin's Focus.
Assassin Strike when Hidden (same as it is now):
1. Scale 2.5 damage.
2. Interruptible with current animation time.
3. Scale 4.5 critical.
4. Demoralize.
Remember that "superior" is less than "extreme".
Not that they are totally consistent with the terminology since it is just the text description in most powers. Eagle's Claw is scale 2.92 and is called "superior" while Total Focus is scale 3.56 and is called "extreme". So scale 2.5 (the current base damage of Assassin Strike) seems right in line with a "superior" damage attack.
If AS-out-of-hidden has faster animation time, it needs to have better DPA than the current "heavy hitter" like Eagle Claw and Midnight Grasp. Sets like Spines will enjoy this change the most since its ST sucks hard. I know I rarely open the battle with BU + AS on my lvl 50 Spines but it's nice to have a melee attack that is better than Impale. -
Quote:Yeah, hopefully the new Assassin Strike out of hidden + Focus can increase overall dps to match Brute/Scrapper on his own.Originally Posted by BrandX
And personally, that's really all I wanted out of my Stalker. DPS equal to Scrappers/Brutes without the worry about being interrupted (and with softcapped defenses, I was often interrupted when hitting placate -> AS in the middle of tough single target fights).
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Quote:I am looking at mids and it shows 20ish brawl base damage. I just did a simple 20 x 7. LOL Ok, I got it now.Originally Posted by Zem
No. Currently Assassin Strike is scale 7 WHILE hidden. That's scale 2.5 base damage plus scale 4.5 critical.
The 140 you're thinking of is the current normal base damage of Assassin Strike (scale 2.5). Also called the "Waylay" portion (if you read the combat log). For a level 50 Stalker, 1.0 melee damage scale = 55.61 damage.
So basically the new Assassin Strike will have no change during Hidden then? It is still 7 index and interruptable. -
Quote:Blah, I am not sure why I am so confused. This sentence "With the discussed changes they'll still be able to use the Assassin's Strike power and if they stack enough Assassin's Focus they'll be able to deal pretty massive damage very quickly"... it sounds like Focus can shorten activation time or Focus just gives you burst damage through critical Assassin Strike?Originally Posted by Zem
Demoralize only works while Hidden now, so this isn't really a change as far as Demoralize goes. As for Synapse's comments, I think he just misspoke earlier. The context around all this seems pretty clear. The change is to make AS uninterruptible with a shortened animation when not used in the Hidden state (i.e. either from Hide or after Placate).
In short:
Assassin Strike OUT OF HIDDEN status:
1. Damage scale 7 (140ish damage)
2. UNinterruptable
Assassin Strike DURING HIDDEN status:
1. Higher damage than index 7
2. Demoralize
3. Interruptable -
Quote:Can you clarify one thing?Originally Posted by Synapse
Stalkers with defensive builds are more likely to be able to use an Assassin Strike from hide. That is no different than it is on live currently. The intent now is to allow everyone to use Assassin Strike regardless if they're in hide or not. The out of hide Assassin Strike should benefit all secondary sets relatively equally as it isn't interruptible.
Synapse
Your first post starts by saying "Using Assassin Strike out of hide is still interruptible. It is the only way of dealing that massive scale 7 damage and inflicting demoralize. If you placate an enemy you are considered hidden and will execute an interruptible Assassin's Strike."
And in the above post you said "The out of hide Assassin Strike should benefit all secondary sets relatively equally as it isn't interruptible." -
Quote:But scale 7 is only 140ish damage. That is lower than what the current AS does from hidden isn't it?Originally Posted by BrandX
I'm pretty sure, while in the hidden status, you get the scale 7, inflict demoralize attack.
While in the unhidden status, you get a superior damage level attack.
My guess is that it loses the demoralize effect, and is purely a OMG damage attack, since outside of demoralize, Assassin Strikes have no secondary effect.
I am under the impression that when using AS "outside" of hidden, you get index 7 + demoralize. -
Quote:Ok... which one is it then? He started by saying "Using Assassin Strike out of hide is still interruptible. It is the only way of dealing that massive scale 7 damage and inflicting demoralize."Originally Posted by BrandX
And then he said "The out of hide Assassin Strike should benefit all secondary sets relatively equally as it isn't interruptible.".
T_T -
Quote:I am pretty sure Synapse said Assassin Strike will remain interruptable in and out of hide?Originally Posted by BrandX
Looking over it again, they say the attack is uninterruptle on when used outside of hide, so why the worry? Using it with Placate and as an opener and it being an interruptle attack is what they do now. Making it become a superior damage attack when not in hidden status, doesnt seem bad.
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Quote:Sounds cool.Originally Posted by Synapse
Phantom Army are invincible entities. Haunts can be killed relatively easily. Just how easily will likely change in beta if they're too squishy. The intent is for them to lock down a target for awhile.
The intended strategy is to control your enemies so their survivability increases. Additionally Shades can be healed and buffed.
Synapse -
Quote:I am still a bit confused by what exactly Assassin Focus does. I was under the impression that the Focus gives you more chance so Assassin Strike has a higher chance to do critical damage out-of-hidden? So in real gaming situation, you start with BU + AS, and then you scrap out to build up Focus until the fight is over, but by the time you reach the next group, aren't you already in "hidden" which gives AS 100% critical?Originally Posted by Synapse
Arbiter Hawk succinctly summed up the Stalker improvements. I'll add this though:
Using Assassin Strike out of hide is still interruptible. It is the only way of dealing that massive scale 7 damage and inflicting demoralize. If you placate an enemy you are considered hidden and will execute an interruptible Assassin's Strike.
In practice these changes should feel pretty good. You can open up with Build Up>Assassin's Strike>Placate>Whatever and then go about hitting remaining enemies and building stacks of Assassin's Focus. In a more prolonged fight Assassin's Strike will be able to be used more than just an opener.
This change is also intended to solve the "very efficient team" problem. It's great that your team is super efficient at obliterating enemies, but it's a bummer for the Stalker because a spawn is often wiped out before they get a chance to land an Assassin's Strike. With the discussed changes they'll still be able to use the Assassin's Strike power and if they stack enough Assassin's Focus they'll be able to deal pretty massive damage very quickly. They'll be able to do this regardless if their team isn't allowing them to open up with an Assassin's Strike from hide. If you get hit with a good Fulcrum Shift, your stalker is better off using regular attacks to finish off mobs than trying to set up AS.
I feel there is definitely a time and place for the Assassin's Strike from hide. The intent here is NOT to replace this power's stealth functionality. When I22 hits beta we'll have our eyes peeled to your feedback, as it will be critical to the success of these changes.
Or Assassin Focus improves activation time? "With the discussed changes they'll still be able to use the Assassin's Strike power and if they stack enough Assassin's Focus they'll be able to deal pretty massive damage very quickly" -
Arbiter Hawk succinctly summed up the Stalker improvements. I'll add this though:
Using Assassin Strike out of hide is still interruptible. It is the only way of dealing that massive scale 7 damage and inflicting demoralize. If you placate an enemy you are considered hidden and will execute an interruptible Assassin's Strike.
In practice these changes should feel pretty good. You can open up with Build Up>Assassin's Strike>Placate>Whatever and then go about hitting remaining enemies and building stacks of Assassin's Focus. In a more prolonged fight Assassin's Strike will be able to be used more than just an opener.
This change is also intended to solve the "very efficient team" problem. It's great that your team is super efficient at obliterating enemies, but it's a bummer for the Stalker because a spawn is often wiped out before they get a chance to land an Assassin's Strike. With the discussed changes they'll still be able to use the Assassin's Strike power and if they stack enough Assassin's Focus they'll be able to deal pretty massive damage very quickly. They'll be able to do this regardless if their team isn't allowing them to open up with an Assassin's Strike from hide.
I feel there is definitely a time and place for the Assassin's Strike from hide. The intent here is NOT to replace this power's stealth functionality. When I22 hits beta we'll have our eyes peeled to your feedback, as it will be critical to the success of these changes.
Don't get excited too quick guys... read the above quote from Synapse. Looks like Assassin strike is still going to be interruptable. LOL
I need more time to digest this. -
Quote:Yeah that's why I think all Assassins should be normalized because AS may be a big part of dps improvement. Ninja and Broadsword shouldn't be at disadvantage and Kinetic shouldn't have advantage either.Originally Posted by Zem
It'll be a shame if Ninja Blade and Broadsword have to have a full extra second of animation time on the shortened out-of-hide AS vs. KM. That'd be a big difference in DPA.
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Quote:2s for an "Superior" damage will be good because we already have Superior attacks like Total Focus but that attack doesn't have very high DPA due to long activation time. So in order to improve Stalker's ST dps, the new Assassin Strike will need to activate faster or do way more damage, or else it may not an improvement on overall dps (which defeats the purpose of this buff).Originally Posted by JanusFrs
It's funny to note how "many" people have asked about the SJ AS, however noone (or very close to noone, even in Stalker amounts) have asked about the DB AS and it's combos. To be honest I think this will make DB somewhat of a more comprehendable set to use should the changes go through, as it won't matter as much should you get hit by enemies while in AF gathering mode
Also about people wandering about how much damage the OoH-AS (Out of Hide-Assassin's Strike, sue me for abbreviations :P) will do, I think it'll do the base damage it does, leaving the hide critical out, meaning about 140 at level 50 (assuming my sources are up to date). I also think they will cut about 1 or maybe 2 seconds off of the current AS animation, as my believe is that they'll animate by briefly entering the prepare stance and then launch the attack, or else they'll just speed up the whole animation X %.
Curious though, why are people talking about alternative animations? Do you think they will add them or has it been stated explicit that alternate animations will be used for the OoH-AS?
Oh, dual blade will be much better then! -
Quote:You won't be buying Titan Weapon then. Dev has confirmed at the meeting that Stalker will not get Titan Weapon. Of course they can always change their minds years later but right now, there is no plan on giving TW to Stalker. (tears...)Originally Posted by Supernumiphone
Beyond the listed changes what I'd want primarily is the proliferation of more primary powersets with AoE intact. That includes Titan Weapons. I have no interest in playing that set on any AT other than a Stalker, so I won't be buying it until they get it. Also /SD and /FA.
Ugh..I hate this Titan Weapon set! I will not buy it. If they want to exclude stalker on purpose, then I will not support it. I don't buy that "theme" is the reason. They can very well change the name (like they did with Ninja Blade), change weapon looks and modify the set the way they've been doing. Theme is not the reason! -
Do you guys feel all Assassin Strikes should be normalized if Assassin Strike is going to be a big part of how Stalker competes in high-end dps?
It sounds like Assassin Strike is going to be a "must-use" in attack chain for big damage, but activation time varies a bit for certain sets. I believe if Assassin Strike is going to be THAT important, then every Primary should have the same activation time (much like how they normalize Blaster Tier 1 and Tier 2 since those two can be used during mezzed period). They can keep different damage type to preserve different "flavor" for each set.
If they should be normalized, what's the optimal activation time? 3s?