Jibikao
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Quote:That actually sounds good. Better than dancing in pocket D...Originally Posted by docbuzzard
I could actually see DA becoming the new assembly point for trials since you won't have to just stand around in a league waiting for it to fill. You could actually street sweep and do something. While missions won't be an option, at least you can do something which has a return.
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Quote:Looks like Haunt is going to be an important part of how Dark Control controls (taunt and fear). Synapse did say you can buff the ghosts, which makes them better on Controller since trollers have support secondary.Originally Posted by Granite Agent
I'm sadly underwhelmed by Dark Control .... even the controller version sounds a bit better.
The pbaoe stun is a bit annoying.
And even with domination, Fear isn't a hard control. -
Quote:I am pretty sure Infrigidate's -damage is only on Fire damage, not all Types?Originally Posted by Master_Templar
-DMG = -100% (Infrigidate = -37.5%, Benumb = -62.5%) -
Quote:I wouldn't even allow Once per activation for Throw Spine, Spine Burst, Shockwave, and Lightning Rod. I just don't want the disparity between certain sets to get even wider.Originally Posted by Siolfir
If they do gain focus, I would expect it to work only once per activation and not once per target; that somewhat preserves the balance since you're still using the higher endurance cost of an AoE.
Spines can still build Focus by using impale, ripper (it's really a small cone) and the first two attacks. If we allow Spines to build with throw spines and spine burst, then it has the best of everything. What suddenly seems like Spine's biggest weakness (ST damage) becomes almost non-existent with the new AS.
If we only allow ST attacks and small melee cones to build Focus (Rippers and Jacobs Ladder), then Spines can make a choice to either go all out on aoe or build Focus for ST damage if it's just a boss left, but I don't think the set should have both advantages. -
So what if Stalker does better Melee ST Burst Damage AND better Melee ST DPS? Is that really broken?
Stalker is the worst survival of the four melee and Stalker has less access to aoe. Is that so wrong that the new Assassin Strike allows Stalker to do the best Single Target Melee Damage?
It's correct that AoE has taken over this game but since we don't want Stalker to turn into "another Scrapper", we should at least allow Stalker to excel one thing which is ST Melee damage. If Stalker can't even do that, what is the point of this AT?
This is exactly what Stalker is suffering right now. It has the least survival among the four melee ATs. It is terrible at tanking. It doesn't do the best ST damage and it certainly doesn't do the best AoE damage. And because of all the above reason, Stalker is the worst at soloing really tough enemies like AVs and Pylons.
With the new change, Stalker still has the advantage to start the fight with BU + AS and after that, the new Assassin Strike allows Stalkers to take down ST targets quick. Just because you can unleash good ST damage, it doesn't mean you shouldn't use your AoE. If you are Spines, you can can/should use your Throw Spines.
Stalker needs a better role in prolong fights too since Stalker isn't likely to be the meatshield or to be the debuff/buff machine like Corr/Defender/Controller/MM. The new Assassin Strike will make sure Stalker delivers extreme ST melee damage. Is this so bad?
Some of you brought up Energy Melee and I agree that set should just need a big change. -
Quote:That's exactly the point. Most Blasters can take out 50%-60% of trash mobs with a simple Aim + Build Up. (The only Stalker that may do that is Lightning Rod + Fireball but that's higher level stuff and again some of Stalker's major problems come from which primary you choose)Originally Posted by Arcanaville
But conversely, if one blaster can take out 75% of the spawn, then your offense doesn't really matter either.
The change for Stalker is to make them more attractive on a competitive/very good team as stated by Synapse.
Assuming Tanker is going to grab most of the aggro, Blaster has a better role than Stalker. Stalker has almost "no role". It's the worst melee for tanking and its damage potential is less than Scrapper/Brute and many other ATs (less than SoA and some Dominators). And in an AV fight where there's tons of pbaoe that can kill you (ie. Bobcat in Apex or Stateman SF against 4 Patrons), Blaster has a better advantage at fighting at longer range. As great as Banes are, I can still die during Statesman SF with those four AVs using aoe/pbaoe attacks or I sometime die in one hit (if I am defense based like ninjitsu) by an Incarnate boss.
Blaster at least has one role that does pretty well and I agree their melee rating needs to be higher to justify the risk. -
I don't know how exactly you gain Assassin Focus but I am hoping aoe attacks don't gain Focus. I say this only because that will give AoE-oriented set too much advantage. Throw Spine, Spine Burst, Shockwave, Burst... those already do good burst aoe damage. If they build Focus too, then they have the best of both worlds, while EM and MA are still hitting only one target.
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Quote:I am making two Blasters right now. One is Beam Rifle/Fire and one is Dark/Mental. I haven't played Blasters in a long time (been playing mostly Stalkers and SoA). Beam Rifle with Aim + Build UP can take down any boss faster than my Stalker and Dark Blast is just so good with a variety of controls, debuff and healing.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
If I had to rank which archetypes deserved the most attention overall, the list would be:
Peacebringers
Blasters
Stalkers
Everybody else.
The only reason I put PBs ahead of Blasters is just because the disparity between PBs and WSs is ludicrous, and because I don't think Kheldians get enough special benefits for being quantum-bait.
I actually think Blasters are much better than I imagined. My very first 50 is Sonic/Ice but that's before set bonuses were released.
Blasters at least do one thing very well and that's damage (range and aoe damage, I agree melee modifier needs to be higher to be worth it). I find my Beam Rifle taking down bosses faster than any of my Stalkers. Yes, Blasters don't have defensive secondary but Blasters fit one role very well and that is damage.
Stalker? Stalker can't fill the damage role for the team (unless you are Spines and maybe Electricity). Stalker does good damage but Blasters can take down 75% of the mob with just Aim + Build Up. And with set bonuses, Blasters survive relatively well. Of course it is not as well as Stalkers but my Stalkers never really draw that much aggro to begin with (hence my advantage of having defensive secondary is a bit over-rated on a larger team because I am never going to grab aggro away from Tank/Brute).
Both Blaster and Stalker seem to get over-shadowed by Scrappers/Brutes. As for Dominator, even after the new change, I feel Blaster's damage is still way higher. The only Assault set that can compete with Blaster is /Fiery. Other than Fiery, I would only rate Dominator's damage as "good" and Blaster is between "very good to excellent". And in situations where controls don't work (itrial AVs for example), Dominators don't seem to have that much advantage over Blasters.
This is coming from a player who mostly only play villains (primarily Stalker and Dominator) for years, and suddenly change to Blaster a few weeks ago. I just forgot how high Blaster's damage is. Blaster's damage puts my Stalker to shame.
Let's just say that in general, if a team needs damage, most people would think of Blaster and not Stalker. And yet, when a team needs tank, nobody would think of Stalker. So in the end, Stalker does not fit any team-concept. Not the best ST and AoE damage dealer. Not the best tank and certainly not the best support and controls. This is why I rank Stalker over Blaster in terms of "who needs more help".
Edit: As for Kheldians, I just don't like the two other Forms. They are too limited for all the restrictions and delay in shifting. -
Give me both Life Drain and Siphon Life! :P
But if we can only choose one leeching power, I prefer Life Drain. -
Quote:Actually, that makes me think there is not going to be a straight port for Illusion because it would have been done in issue 22 when they finally have time for Dominator. They choose to release a new Dark Control set as a "free" set instead. I refuse to think making Dark Control takes less time than porting Illusion Control. So "time" isn't the issue. The issue is Synapse does not like invincible pets and he rather not release it to dominator because the set will be a balance nightmare. Personally, I think they should just release it to dom and let the players figure whether they like the set or not. I mean I can't imagine it being worse than Ice Control. lol Ice Control lacks reliable aoe hard controls with breakable sleep, pbaoe hold (rather than target aoe) and a pbaoe debuff with huge endurance cost.Originally Posted by Da_Captain
Why are you saddened by that? I am relieved, that means there is still hope for a Dom illusion some time down the road.
If it's not coming in 2012, then it won't come at all.
I actually love that statement because I can stop guessing when Illusion will come. It won't come. -
Quote:Let's wait a bit to see if they'll announce new "cash" sets. Dark/Dark sound like it's going to be free, which makes up for the lack of proliferated sets.Originally Posted by Airhammer
STill not happy... why.. because Dominators are being treated once again like the ugly baby sister that gets the Controller hand me down..
They need to make a GOOD set that is UNIQUE to dominators.. Not something that Dominators get because Controllers are getting it too.. That used to be plant... Then controllers got it
And in all honesty I DONT want Illusion control on Doms..I want them to make something for DOMS.. period...
It just seems to take a long time to get a new Assault set. Dark Assault has one new power which works like a mix of Build Up and Power Boost. I would imagine the "animation" will be the same so Dark Assault could be put together in hours since there's no new animation involved (which begs the question why didn't they release Dark Assault earlier? :P)
I still think it's going to be Whip Assault and it's going to be a cash item.
As for new Control sets, it will always be for both Controller and Dominator. I just can't see them spending 2x amount of time for two new unique sets. -
Quote:Yeah I thought about this as well but MA and EM have no aoe.Originally Posted by BrandX
You know that may be the real benefit. Make 1 AOE (preferably an PBAOE one imo) per set a 100% crit to go along with placate.
Won't help a few sets that are ST focused, but over all, it would be a nice improvement.
Maybe Placate can give double-critical 100% chance? We are already seeing double-critical. It's just very rarely. -
Quote:While I am not against any new sets for Dominator, I had a much high hope for something that is much different from Dark Control. I was guessing Whip Assault/Control.Originally Posted by Zombie Man
When there was the last round of proliferation, the Doms were left out and told they were getting something special.
Players heard: "Brand new powerset."
Devs meant: "Brand new powerset."
See the difference? No? Let me explain...
When the Devs can't do a straight proliferation, but have to change animations and powers and alter other powersets to accommodate a 'proliferated' set, well, that's as much work as creating a brand new powerset around a brand new theme (e.g., Poodle Control). For them, if it's as much work as a brand new powerset, then it's a brand new powerset, and thus, 'special.' Dark Control has new animations, new power effects, and forced a rework of Dark Miasma for Controllers. That's not a straight proliferation in their eyes. That's work.
It's not 'Poodle Control' special like players imagined. Thus, the difference in perception.
Yes, they did add new stuff in Dark Control which is great. It's just that when we think of Dark Control and Dark Assault, we didn't think it would take over 4-5 months to make.
Some of us had much higher expectation since we couldn't understand why it would take that long to give something to Dominator while other ATs got several new sets. And the reason given by Positron is that the new sets are going to be "special" and "exciting". Dark Control and Assault sound more like "proliferated sets" than a brand new, fresh idea set.
The degree of expectation is different for sure. And I still don't know if one of the Darks is a "cash set" or both are free. I would imagine they would create something "very special" as a "cash item" and that's what's taking so long.
At any rate, it's nice to hear some plans for Dominator because by the time those sets are ready, it's probably several months away since issue 21. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
I think Stalkers should be all about "Get rid of That Guy!" and secondarily about "I am in no danger, because you are not even attacking me."
This game scales difficulty with more players on the team (or you can set it harder if you want) so Stalker's need to eliminate that "one bad guy" gets way tougher with more players. And in all seriousness, getting rid of that "one" bad guy isn't that big of a deal anymore because most ATs can get rid of that one bad guy with a typical build up or aim.
If the one bad guy is an AV or GM, then Stalker contributes even less than other melee ATs (Tanker can tank 4x better than Stalker, Brute can tank while dealing great damage and Scrapper just plain does more damage with a bit better survival). -
Quote:Yeah, I really want Assassin Strike to be better, faster and more efficient. I mean that attack is a replacement of many precious pbaoe.Originally Posted by BrandX
While I find that an interresting idea, I do have a question.
Wouldn't making Assassin's Strike a Superior Damage attack while in the unhidden state with a fast animation attack still be a burst damage option while still increasing their DPS?
With the new change, Assassin Strike's burst damage can be used more frequently and efficiently on different targets, rather than just the first one or two targets. -
Quote:This sounds cool too!Originally Posted by Arcanaville
That's actually more or less what they were supposed to be from the start as I understand it, so what you're thinking and what I remember from CoV beta seem to be roughly in sync.
But here's the rub: given how at this point recharge is basically the playerbase's prison girlfriend at this point, do you believe its possible to give anything, stalker or otherwise, better burst without simultaneously giving them better sustained damage without using stronger mechanical trickery than what we're using now for stalkers?
Also, allowing assassin's strike better usage out of hide is much more of a sustained damage buff than a burst damage buff. That's fine, but does that mean you're at least roughly happy with the burst damage of stalkers at this point and are now looking to smooth over the rough spots elsewhere, or there's still more burst damage refinement coming in the future?
When I think burst damage, particularly burst damage as a form of mitigation, I think this: if A and B can both kill ten targets in sixty seconds, but while A kills one target every six seconds B kills the first five in 10 seconds and the last five in 50 seconds, B has a burst advantage but no offensive advantage. They both kill at the same speed overall, but B ends up taking a lot less damage than A. The tools I'm seeing aren't frontloading tools that compensate for lower mitigation, they are looking more like straight up offensive buffs.
I have often wondered if the best way to give stalkers better burst is to simply give them reverse fury. They start at maximum, and as they attack it decays. So at the start of the fight they have maximum damage, but the longer the fight lasts the lower their damage becomes. When the fight ends, they recover that advantage. By being less "binary" you get more of the feel of "building it up" and then "using" the burst advantage. Its like a frontload meter you spend by attacking.
And to make sure it doesn't get ludicrously high for soloers but is high enough when in teams, just make the fury meter scale a scaling buff like against all odds. So a stalker that enters a three minion group with full meter gets like a +50% damage buff to start, while a stalker that enters a twelve minion group with full meter gets like a +150% damage buff to start. As they attack, the meter drops from 1.0 to 0.0, dropping the buff accordingly. When they aren't attacking, the meter rises again. You could even make things like Placate add points to the meter (it doesn't have to reset to full, it could add 0.5 to the meter, or whatever). How fast the meter decays would determine how focused the frontloaded burst damage buff would be.
That to me sounds like a burst damage tool, and it wouldn't be difficult to add in theory, although it would take some time. The question is is it a reasonable request given the intended target for stalkers?
I think the dev wants to make Assassin Strike better because that's one attack that many people have trouble liking it. You usually use it at the beginning and that's it. Hell, sometimes you don't even get to use it in the beginning if you get interrupted or the setup time is not worth it.
I wonder what Synapse thinks of your idea.
The "reverse fury" sounds very good. The hardest part is to figure out what timer should be used to reset that bar and making Placate to reduce decay sounds like an excellent idea! -
Quote:As a player who has leveled so many Stalkers to 50, I can tell you that I do not want Placate being AoE.Originally Posted by Rock_Crag
Placate should be an AoE and their regular armors should really only be good enough for them to survive until placate recharges. This is, of course, with PvE in mind. Stalkers have always been somewhat of a questionmark for me when it comes to PvP.
Why? Because when I team with a squishy or two, I want to be the main meatshield. I cannot grab as much aggro as a Brute/Tanker but the last thing I want to do is to dump all the aggro to other squishies just because I want to score a critical with Placate. In fact, when we are fighting AVs or bosses, I don't even use Placate at all because I am afraid they go after the squishes. I know I've "helped" kill my teammates a few times using Placate.
Placate is a very tricky power... -
Quote:We are on the same page then!Originally Posted by Synapse
For me, ideally I feel that Stalkers should be the single target burst damage kings. Some sets do this better than others and some sets offer some AoE. Your mileage may vary depending on which sets you pair together. However, I'd really like to see Stalkers being able to outperform Scrappers and Brutes in bursts, especially with single target damage. Their trade off as always is survivability.
I don't think it's just the "burst" damage. I think Stalker should do better burst damage while doing "very similar" sustained ST dps since Brute/Scrapper have better aoe damage and they survive better. :P
The new change looks good.
By the way, some people feel Placate may be lacking with the new change. Is there any plan on changing/improving Placate? Placate + AS suddenly becomes less desirable. I rarely use Placate + AS because I can't set up AS if I am running offensive toggles (Dark Armor, Energy Aura and Ice Armor). I have to de-toggle first and then Placate + AS. I mostly just hit Placate + whatever since I can get an attack off before I get interrupt.
I think Placate activates a bit too long but it's just me. I never like using Placate + AS but I do use Placate + aoe. -
Quote:I just think there's too many -resist in the game already. Tanker got one too and Focus will make Assassin Strike a very good attack.Originally Posted by BrandX
I prefere the idea of -Resist to the target of the placate as a way of trying to find their weakpoints.
I just want Placate to do something different other than providing more damage through +damage buff or -resist.
Oh well. We'll see. I don't think the dev would do anything about Placate but it's fun to come up ideas. And I know that I always run out of endurance during long fights unless I have several sets. The +endurance is for situation where killing one target isn't as beneficial as prolonging your ability to continue the fight. -
Personally, I don't like using Placate + AS especially when I am on a team. I know I won't do Placate + AS on my Kin/Dark (aura will interrupt) and on my SJ/Ice (CE won't interrupt but I won't get back to hidden either).
I have to de-toggle first and then Placate + AS. What a pain.
On a large or full team, Placate + AS is just so slow. By the time you hit Placate for 1.6s and then hit (and hopefully nobody interrupts you on a full team), you already spend more than 5s on just one target. I really dislike Placate + AS.
However!!!
I kept thinking how can we make Placate more "offensive". Well, one way is to add -resistance or -defense (like the aggroless Surveillance) like some of you have suggested.
Another one I can think of is to add +endurance or +recovery. I mostly don't use Placate unless I am fighting something hard or I have a good aoe attack. In the situation against an AV, if you don't have sets or if you don't have people fueling you +endurance, you are most likely going to run out of endurance before the AV dies. In that situation, I may just use 3 x Focus + Placate to fuel my endurance so I can prolong the fight.
I kinda like LEO's suggestion for the 3 uses of Focus on Assassin Strike. We can use the same thing on Focus on Placate.
One Focus + Placate = +15 Endurance
Two Focus + Placate = +20 Endurance + 5% Tohit buff for 10s
Three Focus + Placate = +25 Endurance + 10% Tohit buff for 10s
(Why tohit buff? Because nothing is worse than missing after Placate! You blind the target and yet you miss him??)
I am not a number guy but the idea is to turn Placate into more useful in prolong fight where endurance matters. Now by the time you are an incarnate, endurance may not be an issue (which is the case for a lot of ATs, not just Stalkers), but that's because most already bought sets to reduce endurance. I know my lower level Stalkers would LOVE to have a way to increase endurance. Remember, not every fight needs to be finished with Placate + AS. If there is just one trash enemy left, why waste the endurance? If Placate can give me back some endurance, I will definitely hit 3 x Focus + Placate so I have enough endurance for the next fight. :P Again, the choice is yours. You can choose to overkill in style or you can choose to fuel back endurance so the following fights have less delays.
And also, more AoE attacks cost more endurance. If I use Placate to unleash aoe attack, I need to make sure I have the endurance for them.
What do you think? -
Quote:Yes, it may be bad for domination but the set works well without domination. The set works well without controller's containment and high control duration (minus Domination). In fact, Illusion is a tough set to take advantage of containment because there is no immb and aoe immb. In this regard, it is also 'bad" for Controller in general but the set works well because it is great at soloing and controller has support secondaries like radiation.Originally Posted by JayboH
You guys realize that Illusion Control would be terrible for domination, right? It wouldn't build any domination and wouldn't take advantage of it much either.
The set's balance problem is invincible pets. I can see the set being a bit problematic on a larger team but for soloing, I think the set rocks on dominator. I know my perma dom would love having 3 pets taking aggro for me while I mow the mobs down.
I think the only way we'll ever find out is to let the players test it and let us decide. If it sucks, it sucks. I mean it can't be worse than Ice control can it? Ice Control lacks hard control and requires pbaoe debuff and the sleep does damage (which means you can't stack) and its aoe hold is pbaoe.
I love Electricity control and several powers don't benefit much from domination either. -
Quote:Yeah I agree that ultimately it is the players that should decide the direction of the AT. I think this is why I stick with this game for so long because I don't think any other game cares that much about player's opinion and there's very little interaction between Dev and Players.Originally Posted by Synapse
That would definitely be helpful. CoH has changed hands a lot over the years and design philosophies change as designers change. A lot of the design decisions were made by those long before my time and quite possibly even before Castle's time as well. So, we have to dig through ancient dusty documents and when none are to be found we are left to make educated guesses.
My personal philosophy is to give you guys what you want provided the following is true:
1) We have time.
2) The request is reasonable.
3) There's good data to support the necessity of making such a change.
4) The change won't negatively impact game balance.
5) The change doesn't cause a bunch of other smaller problems.
Naturally there's a bunch of other factors, but those are the big ones.
Synapse
Castle said team critical buff was as much as he could do for Stalker even though many of us felt that Stalker is still doing less damage even with full team critical buff and that it is strange that Stalker needs a "team" to perform well when the AT's design is to excel in soloing (which Stalker is also bad at when soloing Pylon, AVs, etc).
The game is constantly changing and so should the goal and balance point. What we think Stalker should do today may change a year later.
I think it is great that the dev is willingly to listen and come up different things.
So far, I have a feeling the dev only wants Stalker to excel in ST damage department because there's already two other Melee ATs that excel in aoe (scrapper and brute). The new change sounds very good on paper right now for ST Burst Damage. I am not too sure about sustained dps but with Focus and shorten activation time, it should help.
I never really have a problem with Stalker's survival (except when I am trying to solo an AV) because Stalker naturally draws less aggro. I've always felt that way. I mean I even have trouble drawing aggro to myself. -
Quote:Well, at least we can stop guessing whether or not Dominator is getting Illusion. I guess Dominator won't get Illusion.Originally Posted by Synapse
Replace is not the word I would use. I would say Darkness Control is coming out I22 and Illusion Control is not.
However, is there a plan to create a "cash" set for Dominator? I would assume it's either going to be Whip Assault or another type of Illusion control (much like Pain Domination VS Empathy). Or Dark Assault is a cash item?? I know Dark Control is "free". -
Quote:Well, I didn't know Assassin Strike was going to be that short activation time. I can see 33% per stack seem a bit high. We'll see once beta starts.Originally Posted by Leo_G
Apparently not.
This is why I'm advocating for an alternative use to Assassin's Focus, even at the cost of effectiveness of what has been described (lol, which is overpowered as it is). What that alternative use might be....well, I dunno.
I mean I can't imagine people asking "nerfs" on stalkers but it may just happen.
We may go for 20% per stack so 5 hits is 100% guaranteed.
I don't know what else they can tie Focus to. Technically, Placate will be a good one because with Focus full, you are going to spend it by clicking Assassin Strike. Placate can be another power that you click to "spend" Focus.
What are some good ideas then? I mean what else do we need? I know I won't be using Placate + AS (unless I really want Demoralize). That's so slow... interruptable and you are not building focus. -
Oh. One thing to note (and this might have been obvious to some, but I think it's best that I spell this out so that there isn't any confusion) is that you basically subtract the windup time from the total cast time you guys see in the real numbers. For example:
Assassin's Strike for Kinetic Melee says it has a cast time of 2.67s. Once you remove the 2 second wind up the power has a .67 cast time. So, when you strike with this power out of hide, it will have a .67 cast time.
The obvious problem is that some Assassin Strikes have longer cast times than others. Eventually I'd like all Assassin Strikes to have a 2 second wind up and 1 second cast time. This way you always have a 3 second total cast time (including interruptible wind up) when hidden and a 1 second cast time out of hide.
Again, that likely won't come until after i22.
0.67 Super Damage attack for Kinetic? Oh please.. gimmie. So yeah, if you are not using Assassin Strike, you are not competing hard...
Well, Placate still has its use for aoe attacks like Burst and Throw Spine. If the mobs are just trash enemies, a Focus X 3 will be way overkill on a minion. A more logical choice is to do Placate + AoE to hurt as many as you can or you can choose to overkill a minion. There is still a choice involved.