Jibikao

And the new change still won't take away Placate + AoE.

Mid-combat placate + AS has never been a useful tactic. It has its use for sure. I use it to finish off bosses with god mode. Instead of dpsing him to death, I need a good burst damage to finish him off before he casts his god-mode.

I am not spinning it. I've asked several times what people think Placate "should" be. I think I posted in another thread (so many postings!! lol)

Obviously, Placate won't be as good as an Offensive option when Focus comes out. They can still make it a good Defensive option. IE: Making Demoralize better or granting some +defense or resistance.

If Placate is useless, I won't even take it. I do take it. I just don't use it all the time just like if my Scrapper takes Confront, I don't use it all the time. I may use it to taunt an AV if I am the sole melee and that's about it. Just like you can't expect Placate to be that useful all the time.

Somebody already said they can't really shorten Placate's animation. That's one thing that I was really hoping for. Oh well....

I've never seen scrapper using taunt much. I know night widow has it too and I've never seen NWs using it.

I can't imagine Confront is a popular choice for scrapper. Why should we expect more from Placate?

I took Placate but I don't put any slots into it.

The point is that we can't expect every power to be as useful so if Placate + AS sucks, so be it. It has never been that great and with the new buff, it gives me a reason not to bother with it much. I may still use it when I solo though.

Now, what if Placate is supposed to be "bad"? What if Placate is never intended to be a very useful tool?

Think about it, when is the last time you see Scrappers using Confront? I know I haven't. Hell, I sometimes don't even see Brutes using Taunt.

I mean Placate is not great and is somewhat buggy. What if that's a bad power to improve upon? If I am soloing, I do use Placate more because I can do Placate + AS or a heavy hitter. Even if Placate +AS may not be worth it in the future, Placate can still stop the boss from attacking you for a little while.

Placate + AS is also a viable way to take down a boss that uses god mode when health drops to 10%.

Well, Energy Melee is one of the sets that the dev think needs help. Energy Transfer was toned down 'cause at that time, there weren't that many "aoe-oriented" content. ITF is probably the start of it. We also didn't have game settings that allow us to increase mob size. Energy Melee was popular because it was a great set for soloing and pvp.

After they nerfed ET, the whole set just feels it lost everything. Its ST damage is great (not excellent) and yet it has one of the worst aoe-potential.

With the content focusing more and more on large team size and mob size, maybe it is not so wrong to have the old ET back. Stalker is the best candidate to do that ST burst damage.

We'll see how it feels like once we do beta testing. I think the new change sounds overpowered on paper but once you are on a large team, you may feel that your assassin job gets easier and yet it doesn't feel broken (since other ATs are either doing more AoE or having better buffs/debuffs/controls).

I just think there's nothing wrong to change something due different circumstance. The game is constantly changing. ET was seen as OP but I seriously doubt that ET is seen as OP now. In fact, I rarely see Energy Melee toons. Just like Castle thought there's nothing he could do for Stalker and yet the other devs feel because the game has itrials now, Stalker needs something to help them speed up assassination (whether through faster animation time, uninterruptable or both).

Ice/Ice is a good theme and it is annoying that by the time Ice Melee comes out, people may need to create Ice Armor again.

I don't think they want to screw Stalker over, but I do think they have priority issues. They are trying to rush things out and I don't like that. Yes, we all know Stalker will get it in the future but they should try to do it right the first time.

I've always thought they don't need a new animation for Ice Melee. Just use the one from Electricity.

Geeze, calm down.

The reason there is a debate about what change should be is that people have different expectations of Stalker AT.

Your ideal Stalker may not be the same as others.

I am a bit neutral when it comes to buffing Stalker. I want better damage for sure (they need to at least match 10/10 melee rating and reduce interruption), and I also don't mind having better debuffs or controls. You have to understand that when people create Stalker, they are not really looking forward to debuff or controls. People want that "burst damage".

Can we get all of them? Nope. I don't think the dev has time for it. What the change will do is to at least make Stalker a real 10/10 Melee Rating and make Stalker better at using burst damage (with the ease of 3 Focuses).

An Assassin is not a real good assassin if it takes 4s or longer (if you count +Placate) to take down a threat. The uninterrupted and shorten animation will allow Stalker to do his job better - Single Target elimination.

I still see a meaningful difference between Stalker and Scrapper (to be honest, all 4 melee ATs are quite similar. What differs them is Powerset combinations). I play my Dominator similar to my Stalker. I constantly search for that one threat that I think should be eliminated/contained first. Sapper, Earth Mage, Guardian Ritki, Night Widow...etc.

Stalker has better ST Damage and better Burst Damage and controllable Critical hit.

Scrapper has better aoe, better survival and more powersets to choose from.

Just wait, the new Stalker change should be able to take out +3 minion in one critical AS. :P

Yes I do know there are some tools in some secondaries and that's where the problem is. If they somehow improve those tools (fear aura, stun aura, caltrops, confuse), what about those secondaries that don't have, like Super Reflex and Regeneration? How should they buff those?

Unfortunately, Stalker is an AT with Damage primary and Defensive Secondary. Ninjitsu is as close to what you describe as it gets. (maybe Dark Armor too and Ice Armor)

It would be nice if they can re-vamp this AT with Damage primary and Control/Debuff secondary (much like Burglar class in Lord of the ring). Bane is similar to that except Bane is freaking slow.


Let's assume, re-vamp is not an option, what else can they do to make Stalker more "assassin-like"? I know "stealth" is no longer a Stalker specialty. When people think of Stalker, they are more likely to associate it with "burst damage" and more "fragile" (even though Stalker has the similar defensive values as Scrapper/Brute).

This sounds a bit like Champions' "charge up". I've played Champions for a few months when it came out and I believe Experimental Beam is a bit like that. You charge up and depending on how far you charge up, it has different effects. You don't really get "interrupted" (well you can if you get held or knocked back but normal damage won't interrupt your charge up).

I just think this game's engine is too simple to make that happen.

Having interruption on a melee attack is a whole lot more difficult than having interruption on a range attack. I just don't like interruption especially they've introduced even more auto damage in itrials.

(And yes, English is not my first language. )

Just because you are attacking, you are not immediately labeled as a "Scrapper" you know. Are you saying all Brutes/Tankers are really just Scrappers without criticals? I brought up Placate + AS because that's what's unique to Stalker. You contradict yourself by saying that "Stalker shouldn't use Placate + AS because it's ineffective and yet you say Stalker will become Scrapper by simply scrapping. What exactly do you want Stalker to do? Just stand there and pass inspirations during Hidden?

Stalker can control where the critical hit lands. That's an offensive advantage that Scrapper doesn't have. (Of course Scrapper has more offensive advantages in aoe damage)

I don't understand the notion that if your Stalker is attacking, you become a Scrapper. Unless Stalker suddenly has a different secondary set, Stalker will always attack first and ask questions later.


The only part that makes Stalker not like a Scrapper is to use Placate and get in and out of Hidden, which has proven to be unreliable and inefficient in such "fast-pace" game. If the game's pace is slower, sure, you can take your sweet time to find a target and eliminate. However, the regular bosses aren't exactly hard and there is no point in "stalking" if a tank is herding and it's not like Stalker can kill an AV (the real threat!) in one or two hits.


I don't want to get into this shutting match because that will only make Synapse not want to read it. We can come up a list of what makes "Stalker" unique and present to him in a list like the one you see in Tanker's forum (which caught Synapse's attention).

My English isn't good enough so I won't start the thread. Feel free to list out what you think makes Stalker unique and how effective that adds to gameplay. We Stalker fans better come up a list soon before they finalize the changes.

Which part of "Stalker" gameplay defines Stalker in your opinion? Most people's complaint on Stalker is just lack of damage for a "glass cannon" class. People are not looking for Stalker for support or tanking.

The current Placate and interruption are simply "bad" design IMO because Placate doesn't completely let you lose all the aggro. We use Placate simply to either finish off a boss with AS or use it for AoE critical. The new buff gives us a chance to bypass the use of Placate and get a critical through Focus.

I've said it before that I don't want an aoe placate because I sometimes want the aggro to stay on me. Well, maybe being an Assassin needs to be "selfish" and act like one.

Would AoE Placate make you feel more like an Assassin where you can simply disappear in the battlefield and strike again?


I think the dev's goal in this buff is to simply turn Stalker into ST melee machine through Assassin Strike. This power is the signature power. I love it that they make it better because I don't want to take an attack that I mostly use in the beginning of the battle and sometimes I don't even get to use it if I get hit somehow.


I guess we need to figure what exactly defines "Stalker". Your ideal Stalker may not be the same as mine. Let's face it. This game has a "simple" game engine. You click powers and smash. The game engine is not as complicated as some newer games like Rift where there are so many class combinations and so many spells with different combination effects, but even in that kind of game, "Assassin" usually starts the battle with "burst damage" and then he needs to finish off the fight by scrapping or debuffs/controls.

PS: And I do agree with you about Peacebringer. I've said it many times that one reason I don't like Kheldians in general is that shifting forms has "delays" and changing from Tanker form to Human drops all the shields that you put on. Changing forms is simply "annoying" rather than "enjoyable".

I honestly believe Placate + Interruptable Attack is simply unreliable. It doesn't matter it's 1s or 0.5s activation time. As long as you have interruption, it's a questionable attack.

What if Placate + Assassin is a bad design to begin with? How do you elaborate from a "bad" design?

And I am telling you that Placate + Assassin Strike has its use. It's a use that may not be popular but Placate + AoE is still viable.

What if the dev simply don't want us to take one extra step to get that critical ST damage? Just look at how many people complain about Placate. Does Placate "define" what Stalker does? Or it's Assassin Strike? Or it's "burst" damage?

There is no doubt that many other ATs are stepping on Stalker's shoes. Stalker is not the only AT with stealth. Hell, Stalker doesn't even have unsuppressed stealth, Brute/Scrapper do!

However, I've played other online games like Rift, LoTRO, WAR and even Allods. All of their Assassin classes can only stealth to start the fight (just like we are) and after that, they have to scrap it out just like any other melee class.

The one big difference is that those games PROTECT their Stealth class by restricting access to stealth powers. This means if you want a stealthy melee, you must create an Asssassin-type.

What the new buff will do is to make sure Stalker tops ST damage in both burst and sustained. Yes, some people feel ST damage is pointless but I disagree. Scrapper/Brute will still out-damage Stalker in aoe department and that's fine.

I've always said Bane is a superior Stalker but we'll see what the new buffs do. Bane's biggest problem is speed. Almost every attack has 2s casting time.

Perhaps, this game's engine is really out-dated. There's really nothing fancy they can do about it. Once the beta is on, I hope people can test it and give more feedback. Besides just adding more ST damage, what else can they add? More controls?

LOL my exact thoughts! I had to pull out one more tray just so it shows both acid/grenade.

And yes, I've always thought Lamba is only "hard" because of technical difficulties. It is not uncommon to see people crashing during Lamba during critical time and then the last AV fight becomes way harder.

I still remember one time the leader suggests giving all the Grenade to a Tanker and guess what? We gave him 8 and he freaking crashed and only came back with 2 minutes left. :P

I thought for sure Tanker's version is going to be better since that's their primary but hey, I am not complaining! I really enjoy Stalker's CE. I've always wanted to make a debuff-oriented Stalker and Ice Armor is perfect. Spine/Ice will make a crazy SLOW DEBUFF machine.

Exactly. I think at the end of the day, the dev just think the current "placate" and "hide" and "re-hide" mechanisms are just too unreliable. They want Stalkers to deal "massive" ST damage that is not interruptable. Focus counter is there so Stalker doesn't go too crazy on critical damage.

What the buff will do doesn't take away what we have now. You can still use Placate + AS but it may seem less effective because uninterruptable AS seems very effective! Using Placate still has an advantage because you can stop the foe from attacking you for a little while, or you can Placate one and attack another (just like Hold One, Attack Another strategy).

500 VS 160 is quite a bit of difference you know.

And no, it is not that obvious to me because I haven't seen the mini Snowbeast yet, and to those that are new to this game, they probably haven't seen it either.

Those new players, both German Shepard and Snowbeast are just as "new" but one of the price tags is more than 300%. Yeah, try to explain that one to them. You can't just think of this game from the "veteran's" point of view.

Yeah, I bought the dog too. Why is the dog 500 pts? It doesn't even bark!!!

Like this?

Hidden:
- 1s animation time, interruptable
- Cause Demoralize

Unhidden without Focus:
- 3s animation, interruptable
- Does not cause Demoralize

Unhidden with Focus:
- Focus 1: Reduce 0.5 animation + 33% critical chance + Interruptable
- Focus 2: Reduce 1s animation + 66% critical chance + Interruptable
- Focus 3: Reduce 2s animation (down to 1s casting) + 99% critical chance + Uninterruptable
- Does not cause Demoralize but since your AS is down to 1s, you can use Placate + AS (hopefully Placate's casting time is down to 1s or less as well)

Key Point:
- Assassin Strike critical damage remains 6x bonus? We don't have to worry about Assassin Strike hidden and unhidden damage because with Focus, we should be able to fire off a real Assassin Strike with critical bonus damage.

---------------

This idea is not bad because one thing that annoys me when I am on a very good team is that setting up an AS takes too long to the point that I just either 1. throw an aoe out with BU or just simply use my heavy hitter like Eagle Claw. If hidden AS only has 1s, then I can at least eliminate somebody quick to start the fight and then gradually build up focus to release another AS fast.


I wonder which idea will take longer to code? Synapse or this? Do they need to do something special if a power has different casting time? Because with this idea, the AS will need 4 different animations? 3s, 2.5s, 2s and 1s?