Jagged

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The changes in I5 had very little to do with PvP and a lot to do with boring PvE. It's that simple. No conspiracy there - I think I've stated this several times.

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*Jagged sprinkles some salt*

I am sorry but I do not believe you. I come at this from an Inv Tank's point of view. Perhaps I can explain why:

Invincibility

You are often quoted as saying that if a tank could stand in the middle of 50 mobs with no danger then something is wrong (or something close to that). Yet the changes to Inv tanks under I5 leave that ability in tact yet massively weaken my ability to handle AVs (the single biggest reason my tank was ever invited to a team).

So I look at my Tank and see that all my defensive powers have been massively reduced except the one that provides no benefit in PvP. Yet this is the one everyone expected (requested even) to be nerfed!

I would love to understand your reasoning for this, I have tried to look for explainations other than PvP and CoV but I just can't see them.

I look at CoV and see the the total absence of defensive primaries. To adapt my char to I5 I need to build it like a scrapper. In short you have failed to find a blanace for defensive characters so my Inv Tank's Primary is no longer my characters primary ability.

I hope that sheds (shreds?) some light on where posters like myself are coming from.

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That said, I'm fairly sure that 90% of Statesman's intent is for Ice to be Scrankers, as he pretty much said to exactly what you did to me: the extra slots mean you can slot for more damage. Which is BS as my core attacks were already 6 slotted by 50, and their slotting hasn't changed.

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I am pretty sure thats their general policy with all tankers except Stone.

And then there is the fact that there are no (announced) defensive Primaries in CoV. Thats got to tell you something.

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if they fix the sets and

Ice-gets defense

inv- gets resistance with no penalty and minor def

stone-gets resistance, def and psi protection with penalty cost

what does fire tank that will set it apart from the rest considering the average fire tanker never takes tough and stays at 66% S/L resistance.

That would only leave the now nerfed fiery embrace as the only thing that makes up for what the sets lack of defense

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If it were up to me I'd still give Wet Ice some across the board RES to help against one-shotting. The Devs comments about addressing AV damage doesn't fill me with any confidence.

Can I suggest you update the design of some of your maps to make more effective use of the mission changes.

Example: In the Tutorial Mission you almost always encounter the NPC hero in the last room. Which makes their offer to help fight the bad guys rather pointless.

Change the map so that there is a large open room where you can see the NPC trapped over to one side. Then you can decide to rescue them first and then they help you clear up. Or else make the map circular so there is always half of the map yet to clear.

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Without getting into details, ALL CoT Thorn Casters have been reworked. The amount of control powers these minions have will be severely reduced or outright removed.

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*trying not to sound like a belligerent customer*

Control powers are a bit of a hot topic in the Tank forum at the moment. In general I think mobs should have MORE control powers. The only problem with Quicksand is that as an individual power it is totally over the top.

I hope you can find a suitable middle ground.

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Expect other related changes with all Thorn Casters.
This change will come in Expansion 5.

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Sounds cool! Can't wait

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Besides, the stores are nice. We need more buildings we can go into and use. Not less.

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Quoted for truth

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I did say one other thing - that dropped Enhancements are useful only for what you can sell them for - because everyone purchases their Enhancements at the store (or at least most of them).

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Not true, I often slot enhancement I have gotten from a drop. I would rather run lots of missions and spend time playing the game than shopping and making sure my enh are always green.

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Ditto. Also, aside from normal missions, doing TFs is a goldmine for drops that I can use. Between what I get and what I can trade with my teammates, sometimes I don't need to shop at the store for quite awhile.

The only issue I have with dropped enhancments is that you recieve way too many training enhancments at high levels. Those typically wind up as "influence only" enhancements since I usually can't use them, and nobody wants them.


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You guys seem to be luckier than me then. It is extremely rare I get a drop that is useful. I was doing a TF last night against mobs that drop my origin and still only managed to get one drop I could slot (which was passed to me by a mate).

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Yep, but that would mean you are prob. high 20 before friending with him (Long Jack I suppose). So any magic would already be slotted while natural and tech have to do all Long Jacks missions as well and as for science and mutation...

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He's the second contact in the Striga arc. If you start out your 20s with just those missions, you can get his enhancements around 21ish.

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Wow, you need a lot of defeats to accomplish that. With my latest character I entered Striga as soon as I hit 20. I have just finnished Pebbles mission and started on Long Jack and I am already 25.

Granted I do not solo (so I help with other missions as well) but that's meant to be (not an exeption).

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I got the second Striga Isle contact at lvl 21 (no debt) but the third makes you wait until you are 25.

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In other words: Statesman might hate the stores. But that doesn't mean Geko, Positron, Pohsyb, or another dev hasn't stepped up and smacked him for suggesting they remove them.

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*dreams of sneaking into that meeting*

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If you are forced to go to contacts then you will need to clear them ASAP. Sadly teams are built on a rather self centered basis. Most pick up groups have a leader that insist on only doing their own missions. Even if you team with friends who divide things fairly, chances are that the contact doesn't sell to you quick enough. You can gain XP suprisingly fast even from a halfway decent team.

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This is very very true.

I have a character I use purely on Tuesday nights with a group of mates who also have Tuesday-nights-only characters. It is hard enough trying to manage contacts so that those with non-power-10 requirements get their enhancements, let alone having to do it for a whole team.

Because we all have higher level characters we simply don't bother. We try and follow story lines instead. That is difficult enough!

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The beginning is this: I am a comic book fan, and my best friend was addicted to EverCrack. I stayed away from every online game, playing only vs. The computer for things like Starcraft, Warcraft, etc. I resisted Star Wars, and all others. For I knew a super-hero MMORG was in the works, and that was going to be my new hobby. I have a real life, so I have to pick and choose.

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Felt the need to quote this because thats exactly how I approached this game

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Also hes on the police force, so unless another dimension has evil police, that wouldn't work.

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Yeah, that would be silly. Like having an evil Star Trek Federation or something.

I've said it before (probably in this thread) but original Rage was the perfect example of a well balanced power. For some strange reason Statesman got it into his head that it unfairly penalised "casual players". Whatever they are. So it was replaced with a power for which the only solution is well slotted Taunt.

Now I hate taunt and I think Statesman was on the "juice" the day he came to that particular decision. However the current version of Rage is very light on penalties so as much as I dislike it I am reluctant to complain because the replacement will be much much worse.

However on a thematic note I do wish they would give Rage some Fear defense. In fact my idea for Rage would be this:

1) Damage & ACC boost as is.
2) Duration & recharge times as is.
3) While Active Rage halves magnitude of all status protection.
4) Provides very strong Fear protection.

So there is a disadvantage while the power is running, not for 10 seconds when it ends. when it ends.

Alternatively if the Devs aren't looking at this thread (which is my guess) would they please lock it.

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Well than it's obvious: "[null]"

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Seconded.

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Thirded

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Fourthaded

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Actually I prefer "No Cool Handle"

Still won't solve the problems with the Mob AI

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Not just Taunt. That does nothing for us who don't have Taunt, and forces us into the Tauntbot role which Issue 3 supposedly was going to help us avoid.

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Quoted for emphasis.

Although to be honest I think this thread should be locked since I believe there is little chance any change.

Rage 3 is generally has much less of a penalty that Rage 1. I know I can use much more frequently and with almost no consequence. So since we have gotten off so lightly it seems rediculous to complain, however ...

Why have the Devs gone to such lengths to give SS Tanks a disadvantage that almost cannot be worked around?
To me that seems entirely counter to the concept of a "game" and the Defender in me objects to this more than the Tank.
[*]It would seem that the only way round the Attention Deficit Disorder Syndrome is to build up enough aggro before hand (hence the Taunt-bot comment above).
[*]The most severe disadvantage (for the Tank anyway) is the END for which the solution is a good build. So does this power effect the casual player and hardcore player equally as Statesman intended? Nope.

Compare the current solution to Original Rage + Status Protection power and you can see that the Original fits Statesman intent much much better.

I cannot think of a better in game example of "if its not broken, don't fix it".

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I remember when the Dev Digest was first implemented and the speed at which the Devs posted.

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I remember when the Devs thread was created by a player created process rather than by Cryptic. Who was it that did the original? Can anyone remember?

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SabreCat. Good old SabreCat. Where are you now?

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I remember when the Dev Digest was first implemented and the speed at which the Devs posted.

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I remember when the Devs thread was created by a player created process rather than by Cryptic. Who was it that did the original? Can anyone remember?


I remember when Tankers first got a Taunt effect in their attacks (and I don't mean Punchvoke). Didn't that make dealing with Runners so much easier!

I remember when new zones like Galaxy City and Founders Falls were added.

I remember when zones & zone names were added to maps.

And I remember when Temp Invulnerability really was temporary.

name: Power Jenny
powers: Inv/SS
origin: Magic

Jenny's family are the guardians of "The Weapon". This family inheritance has been passed down from father to son for longer than the family has been keeping records. It is not a physical thing but a magical essence that has allowed members of her family to be extremely successful heroes and adventurers. What is more The Weapon seems to respond to the needs of the age and with the rise of the Super Hero and the Super Villain the recent recipients have been amongst some of the most powerful people on earth.

Jenny's father was the renown Powerman and for years he had been training Jenny's brother Jack to take over the mantle. Jenny's only involvement with super powers was the time she spent at the Eden Gardens retirement homes tending to the heroes of yesteryears and she was more than happy for it to remain that way.

Powerman was one of many heroes that took part in the attack on the Rikti home dimension during the war. When Jenny acquired the Weapon there was no ceremony, no flash of light, no sudden realisation of power. So given the worry she was feeling for her father fighting on distant shores it is no wonder that it was probably several days before she realised the inheritance had been passed down to her. That realisation carried no joy, only the knowledge that her father was now almost certainly dead.

Why was The Weapon passed to her and not Jack? She does not know and if she knew how to transfer the power to her brother then it would already be in Jacks possession.

As for Jack, well there is a reason why The Weapon has been entrusted to this family and he isn't going to let a little thing like the lack for super powers prevent him from becoming the hero he trained to be. Plus someone needs to keep an eye on Sis, she doesn't know what she's getting herself into.

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By the way, I am not saying that this is the best downside the Devs could come up with...but if some of you think the downside is that bad and "not fun" then what is an alternative? I haven't seen a single alternate downside suggestion in the posts I've read.

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If you haven't seen any alternative solutions then you haven't been looking. You've skipped over my signiture too.

The current consensus seems to be that they change the period of inactivity to a 100% damage debuff. We could still attack and try and gain aggro but could not do any damage.

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Rage is a really good power that lasts a lot longer than Build Up or it's equivalents. A power that boosts you by this much has to have some sort of a downside (this means that simply upping the recharge time won't cut it, it's powerful enough it has to have a downer). Since the original downside was negated by the developers giving us mobile mez protection they had to come up with a new downside.
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Rage was semi-situational before the mobile mez protection. You could use it perma, but you had to be careful of the timing and it could cost you or your teamates if you weren't.
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Mostly perma-Rage was only used by people who used Perma-Unstoppable. Then with I3 Rage became that way for everyone with mobile mez protection like Unyielding.
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Now it's back to being something that you can use a lot of the time, but you have to be careful and watch it or it can cost you or your teammates...ok, mostly just your teammates.


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Agree with all the above ...

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So there really isn't that much of a difference between Rage as it initially worked (non-perma Unstoppable) and how it works now, except that the Tanker him/herself is actually in LESS danger than they were before (i.e no toggle drop).
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It just really bothers me when I hear people start mouthing off about how 'this power sucks' or 'it needs to be changed' or 'just replace it with Build Up', etc. I would love it if there was no downside and I could run it perma all the time since I run Unyielding all the time too, but no one can honestly say that would be even remotely fair.

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... but I have to disagree with the conclusions you draw.

New Rage is actually MUCH easier to use now and IMO can be used in a lot more situations.

They said they removed the self-root from our powers because it prevented us doing our job. To me this was an acknowledgement of what I had said about Unyielding Stance all along, "that it was no penalty to a solo tank but was a drawback to a team tank".

The penalty to new Rage is exactly the same. Now does that seem appropriate for a tank power?

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Face it guys, Rage was not meant to be a perma-power that makes SS tankers damage dealing monsters.

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Then the obvious solution was to increase the Recharge time.

I have found that I can use New Rage in more situations than I could Old Rage. I can't think of a single reason why a solo tank shouldn't run Rage perma. I used New Rage on the Respec TF the other night while surrounded by Tanks. I would never have done that with Old Rage.

New Rage is easier to use with a much lighter penalty and is a lot less situational than it was before. However I still prefer the original. At least with Old Rage if I messed up then I got the debt. The Attention Deficit Disorder attached to the new Rage just isn't an appropriate penalty for a tank.

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Ah rats. I knew we needed more +1-+3 mob testing for this. But my baseline should have been a good indicator. I don't have any Taunt enhances, besides the 1 in the default slot of Taunt at all either. Looks like Rage may truly be "situational" now, like Statesman's PM to Archimedes said.

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I'm a non-taunt Tanker and I was using Rage during a Respec TF the other night.

I would herd a group of Tank Smashers and get them nicely grouped (typical example being 6, ranging from yellow to purple) I could hold them easily but about 3 seconds into the ADD* they would wander away to something more interesting

This is not good and makes Taunt a more required tool (I have done this respec before without losing aggro or squishies). On the otherhand if I had ever tried to use Old Rage when surrounded by 6 Tank Smashers* I would most definately have had my toggles dropped.

So far I am finding I can use new Rage in a lot more situations that old Rage.


*ADD: Attention Deficit Disorder

*Tank Smashers: Actually a mixture of Tank types. If it had been just Tank Smashers they could probably have brought down Unyielding anyway. But you know what I mean.

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Just got my response from Statesman to my post. Short, sweet, to the point:

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Rage is a situational power, not one to be used constantly. Therefore, it doesn't undermine the Tanker's primary roles.

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Given his response, and the results of testing by others, it does seem that the penalty is not quite as harsh, so I'll be trying to get some testing in this weekend (kinda hard since, as most weekends, I'll be working).

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If that was his intention then it would seem as though he has completely failed.

I've not been able to test this with a team but solo I don't even notice the drop most of the time. My build is END efficient and I don't run perma-hasten so I am not at risk from the End drop. The 10 seconds inactivity happens most frequently while I run from one mob to the next. If it happens in battle, its "so what", I'm a tank and I am well use to standing round in combat doing nothing

I see no reason why this power can't be run all the time. You'd think if that was the intention they would have just increased the recharge rate.

All in all, if Iron Vixens tests are anything to go by then the penalty of Rage 3 seems much less than Original Rage. Doesn't seem like a well designed power at all.

Extensive testing last night (okay okay it was just a couple of missions) would seem to indicate that new Rage presents almost zero risk to the soloing tank.

Make up your own mind as to whether or not that is a good thing.