Jade_Dragon

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You can piss off too Dr. Phil.

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What did I do?

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I believe he meant Starfox. "Dr. Phil" is probably a reference to the TV psychologist, and Starfox's tone, which is similar to what Dr. Phil is known for.

And oddly enough, when I read the original post, I interpreted it as "And you are able to irritate people as well", not "You can get out of my face also". The former would have been a bit more polite a statement.

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Hmm... Jade dragon gave me an idea.

Why not make force bubble into two bubbles.

The inner bubble would be a little bigger than dispersion, and would do the same repel that it does now. The outside bubble would be the same size as it is now, but does KD instead of repel.

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Or even, going from my idea, an inner bubble that pushes out, and an outer bubble that pushes in.

That kind of fits your "pinned to the bubble" idea.

Of course, you really can't make the "push out" bubble any smaller unless it's harder for foes to push into it. Which is why I prefer an inner bubble that pushes out, and an outer bubble that Slows. A Slow + occasional Knockdown wouldn't be too different. (The foes are caught in the "soft" part of the bubble, but occasionally it still tries to throw them out, and they're knocked off their feet)

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You know, maybe if they just upped Force Bolt to do 25-30 damage base, and then gave repulsion field the same amount of damage as well, but give it an accuracy check.

That way, even if you have a KB resistant mob you still get some benefit from the power.

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I do like your final point, but honestly, I don't like the idea of giving Defenders additional damage in the form of attacks. It's not really a Defender's bag, a Defender doesn't get a whole bunch more attacks to do more damage, he BUFFS HIMSELF to do more damage. Or debuffs his foe. The Defender's power is not to do well, it's to make himself better so he does well.

The Corruptor is also capable of that, but not quite as good, but that kind of makes the point. The Corruptor does more damage overall, but the Defender has the better buffs, so when he buffs himself he ends up at the same level as the Corruptor. (Maybe even a little better)

Sure, Storm does some direct damage, and Fallout from Radiation, maybe a bit in TA and Dark as well, but I'm not sure that's the way I want to go with Force Field. Besides, another attack would have to be fitted into the attack chain, so unless it was stronger than something it was replacing, it would decrease your DPS. ('Course, depending on how often you use Force Bolt it might already be part of your chain)

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The other option would be to make mobs "stick" to the edge of force bubble. Not sure if its possible, but basically you would be able to drag mobs wherever you wanted with it while keeping them at max range.

Like into the air. Then you could turn it off...

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This is an odd idea, but it reminds me of an idea I had with Group Fly. Basically make it Force Bubble in reverse, if an ally hits the edge of the Group Fly effect, he is automatically knocked back into the center. So you could carry your whole team along without them having to do anything, you'd just fly forward and "sweep" all your allies forward as they hit the bubble.

Probably not a workable idea, and doesn't really have anything to do with Force Bubble, but the thought just struck me.

Actually, there is another idea I had. Instead of Force Bubble sealing foes out, have them seal them IN. It would make a great variation of the power for a Tanker. You aren't trapped inside the bubble with your enemies, THEY are trapped inside the bubble with YOU.

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Well, in my sig is a link to earlier in this post where I had taken the time to collect and combine all of the suggestions so far. I hope that someone saw that, it took me a few hours....

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The only thing I would say about the consolidation is that reducing the radius of the Force Bubble, and adding the -Speed component are not exactly separate concepts. The latter is, IMO at least, needed to make the former work as intended.

I think I'll add another idea I've had in the past, which is kind of a longshot, and probably would be difficult to implement. But that is to make Force Bubble change all knockback to knockdown within its radius. Castle just made a post as to how that would not work (just making it -Knockback would effectively give knockback protection to all enemies in the bubble) but I'll throw it out there. Maybe the mechanism could be overridden so that foes would not be knocked back (but still knocked down) no matter what the magnitude.

The concept would be that the Force Bubble is semi solid, and so it dampens sudden movement, like a foe being knocked back. The exception would be the inner "bubble", which would still push foes out like before. (it's Repel, not Knockback, thus uneffected)

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Again, that's valid, IF you assume that the Big Three provide as much protection overall than all nine powers of some other Primary.

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As I said: I don't have to assume that at all. In fact, I'll state it again for precision: I am not, and am not required to assume, any performance level of FF in order to assert that having its strength concentrated into three powers is better than having that same strength dispersed into more than three powers. That is logically unassailable.

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All right... That's valid IF you assume that the Big Three provide the concentration of all of the strength of FF into three powers.

This would be at odds with PhiloticKnight's argument that the Big Three are NOT the concentration of all of the strength of FF. In fact, the other powers are not only useful, they are just as useful for damage mitigation and crowd control as the Big Three.

I don't know if I'd necessarily say it's equal, but it's probably closer to the truth than the popular concensus that the Big Three are the only powers that are useful and the other powers should not be taken at all.

Your argument at best can be "By giving up the knockback powers and going to the Pool you can give yourself the variety and diversity that the knockback powers lack." But this is a far cry from saying you have an advantage with this choice. (Outside of the obvious advantage of just having diversity, and possibly, powers that are easier for the casual player to use skillfully)

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Radiation infection is theoretically stronger than all three powers combined - but its much more situational in its coverage, and affected by the purple patch since it is a debuff. Once you get to about +2, the FF bubbles start to become very strong compared to the debuffs that are out there, and its a lot easier for FF buffs to affect all attackers, relative to defensive powers that act as foe debuffs.

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This is exactly what I meant when I said, "FF is better under specific circumstances, and falls apart under other circumstances". As I said previously, I don't want FF to be the "this is the set we need when fighting red cons" set, any more than I want it to be the "this is the set we need because we're herding" or "this is the set we need because we're on an indoor map with lots of corners".

When you get right down to it, though, we're talking about a fairly equal balance between the three. Rad has strong defenses, but really doesn't measure up quite to the other two. Dark is strong defensively, but in ways that FF isn't, and FF is strong in ways Dark isn't. The bigger question is, if FF is NOT significantly more powerful defensively, should it not also have comparable power offensively, at least compared to Dark?

I don't really have any problem with Dark being comparable to Force Field. I just want to see the two either be more comparable, or Force Field have the obvious advantage in defense.

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The primary can't be disentangled from the secondary. There are certain aspects about Defenders' secondaries that make playing an FF Defender less appealing than playing FF in some other AT. Doing something like adding -Res to Force Bubble isn't going to change that. You could add -Res -Speed -Damage and +Pie to Force Bubble and I would still skip over a FF Defender in favor for FF in any other AT.

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I disagree. And while I certainly can't speak for you, I think if you were to actually test Force Field with a damage boost you might find it more to your liking. You've already expressed your concern that with Force Field you cannot "open fire" on a large group of foes like you can with your Controller or Mastermind. You are concerned that your nuke won't do enough damage to finish off the foe, or that if you draw too much damage with herding, that you will be killed before you can finish them off.

Well, first of all let's take a step away from the herding. Controllers and Masterminds will always have better damage mitigation than Defenders. Controllers can hold and otherwise control foes in order to reduce incoming fire, while Masterminds have Bodyguard. Defenders, like Corruptors, are a defense/ranged attack hybrid, and thus they don't have either Controllers' controls or Masterminds' pets to boost their defense. They have ranged attacks.

With a -Res debuff, you are doing more damage. Let's assume this is applied to Force Bubble, so you can have it up all of the time. This means that pretty much every foe in the radius of your effect is debuffed. If we give the Force Bubble a radius inside its current one, then the foes are held at the edge of the bubble with their Resistance debuffed.

You can use any of your ranged powers, including Targetted AoEs, to hit your foes. Depending on the size of the Force Bubble, you may be able to use AoE Cones. The same holds true for your nuke, chances are even with a fairly large bubble, the nuke will still hit your foes. (who are clustered at the edge of the bubble trying to get to you)

So, you've got plenty of attacks to use, and more importantly, you've got enough damage boost to do some damage. When you set off your nuke, maybe you can depend on nothing surviving. You don't HAVE to herd, since you can actually take on five or a half dozen foes and count on them falling before you can get into trouble. Just like a Rad or Kin can. And of course you've still got your knockback powers, and your Detention Shield, and can still use them.

Now, it's possible that a constant -Res is too powerful. Dark's is only up when Tar Patch is up, and also only effects foes in the Tar Patch. Force Bubble is HUGE, so any debuffs applied by it would certainly effect a large number of foes, making it very powerful. There's another issue, of course, which is that waiting until 32 to get a damage boost is going to be pretty hard for many players. It many not really be any better than not getting a damage boost at all, from the standpoint of a new player. But it's a direction for the discussion.

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I really don't think this is true. With Knockback, things aren't attacking until they're back up again, at which point you just knock them down again. With caging they're not attacking at all. With PFF it really doesn't matter if they're attacking.

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Dark has Fearsome Stare and Parylizing Gaze, which will stop foes from firing just as surely as Force Bolt and Repulsion Bomb/Field will, and with PFF up you cannot attack, which pretty much makes the discussion of damage output irrelevant.

I'm a strong supporter of Detention Field, and quite frankly I think it is the ONLY thing that makes FF (or Sonic, for that matter) soloable. You have less damage mitigation, but you also have only 2/3 of the foes to deal with. Considering that Dark can heal itself, however, plus it DOES have a damage boost, I've found it to be much easier and more consistent to solo.

If anything, with Dark I feel TOO safe. With Force Field there is always that fear that a lucky shot will cut through my Defense. That can be exciting, yes, but it can also be frustrating. And we're talking about balance, as well.

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I don't have a hard time rationalizing it; as enemies are fighting their way through the Force Bubble their ability to defend and fend off attacks is reduced.


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CDN, the only problem with that is that's a DEFENSE debuff. You see whenever you don't get hit by an attack and it says "dodged" or "deflected"? That's Defense. Damage Resistance (-RES) is how TOUGH someone is, or how they stand up to the hit when they GET hit. Your justification here is flawed. I'm open to adding -RES to a power somewhere, but this is not a valid justification for it. The game itself says that Defense is "whether you get hit or not" and Damage Resistance is "how hard it hits you". You have to find a new justification.

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Except that that's exactly the rationalization for Tar Patch to have -Res. "It is sticky and pulls at you like Tar, and so your ability to move is reduced. So you lose Resistance to damage."

Now, you could say that because the Tar Patch draws power from negative energy, it drains your strength, and thus your skin softens and you become less resistance to damage. But that does not match the Slow effect of Tar Patch, neither does it match the effect of any other Dark power, and the help text doesn't even bother to give a reasoning at all.

I'm like you about the -Defense effect being more in concept (although most powers that reduce Def either "shoot holes" in your armor, or cause it to decay) but for gameplay reasons I am convinced that it is either damage or resistance reduction that is needed. Accuracy doesn't trade one for one for damage, which is why players don't three slot for Accuracy like they do for Damage.

It's a metagame mechanic more than anything else, and it's very hard to rationalize metagaming.

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Well, I don't really consider those two issues complicating factors to my point, because they are largely orthogonal to my points. In the first case, my point is that having most of your utility concentrated into fewer powers rather than dispersed is actually a performance advantage, even if its a design oddity. That's true regardless of what those powers actually do, and comparisons to the soloing performance of SR scrappers is not relevant here.

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But that assumes that the performance is itself balanced against other examples of power sets within the same archetype. That is, you assume that SR would have three "good" powers in which the majority of its capability is concentrated, and then "crap" powers that can be ignored. If you were to take these three powers as an SR Scrapper under these conditions, then you would be the equal of an SR Scrapper in the game right now. (Without Elude running, I'm guessing)

On the other hand, if PhiloticKnight is right, then the other six powers are NOT "crap". They are, in fact, extremely powerful abilities when used in the correct way. In order for this to be balanced it is reasonable to assume that the Big Three powers are in fact somewhat weaker than the whole set of nine powers from some other Primary. If they weren't, then if you were to use the "crap" powers as PhiloticKnight suggests, then you would be massively overpowered.

We can conclude from this that either the Big Three are no more powerful than any other three powers from a Defender Primary, or, circumstancial restrictions keeps PhiloticKnight's strategies from being used most of the time. The truth, of course, is in between these two extremes, the Big Three may indeed be powerful enough that they allow an FF to compete, even if he takes no other powers, which still leaving room for PhiloticKnight's strategies to improve on the base performance. It can also be argued that any power you take in place of a power other than the Big Three will add to your overall capability, and thus to an extent balance the fact that you aren't capable of the knockback strategies.

In many ways SR is similar to Force Field in that both are primarily Defense-oriented sets with very few secondary effects. This has been resolved somewhat for SR by the addition of the scaling Resistance, which added another damage mitigation component on top of the Defense, and the addition of Defense Debuff Resistance. However, I don't believe the knockback powers of FF are "crap" any more than Quickness and the passives are. It's just that unlike SR, the Big Three are more obvious as advantages, and the knockback powers take more effort to use.

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In the second case, you're saying that a complicating factor in my suggesting that the set design might allow for more offense than generally credited is that FF has an offensive penalty. That's assuming the exact opposite of the point I was trying to make, and suggesting that I didn't acknowledge it.

I'm obviously not going to acknowledge it, if my whole point is specifically that I think it might not be entirely accurate. I think its partially accurate, but I don't think the entire picture is being given full credit, for reasons I specifically outlined. In effect, one design error (strength concentration) is partially offsetting another (lack of offensive options) by creating options relatively unique to the set (seeking offensive options outside the primary without serious loss in effectiveness).

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In a way, this is like the "you can herd, thus you can do more damage" argument. Or even the "you have more time to blast, thus you can do more damage" argument. Again, that's valid, IF you assume that the Big Three provide as much protection overall than all nine powers of some other Primary.

I suspect that it doesn't. It may come close, but most other Primaries are combining Defense (or -ToHit), Resistance (or -Dmg) and Healing for their damage mitigation. You yourself have posted comparisons between the various Primaries, and while Force Field certainly proves itself remarkably strong, it does so under conditions that are very specific, and falls apart very quickly other other specific conditions. You've said as much yourself.

In addition, there is the fact that, while solo, the FF Defender draws upon considerably less damage mitigation than a debuff Defender like Dark or Rad. While you've done analyses of Defenders' benefit to a team, I don't think you've ever a solo analysis. Just a simple estimate based on the numbers I have seen would suggest to me that the FF Defender's survivability would be very low, except in cases where he can bring PFF to bear. (Which would itself limit the FF's damage output)

In other words, the solo condition is important, and in a factor in the decision of FF Defender to continue to play their character. While it may not effect the overall performance of the FF Defender, it has enough of an effect that it should be considered.

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Remember, this is our issue; that Force Field has too FEW effects, compared to other Primaries.

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Force Fields has few _direct_ effects compared to other primaries.

But it has many indirect effects, the kind that aren't listed in the power description. Basically duplicating -Speed, -Recharge, -Damage are only some. Repulsion Field in essence duplicates the benefits of Immobilize. Force Bubble with a little bit of creative movement and a small amount of control duplicates a Hold. And these are _toggle_ powers.

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As I said, if you use this argument, any Immobilize could be a -Speed. Any Fear is a -Recharge. Any Hold or Stun is a -Damage. Again, GIVE ME ANY EXAMPLE ANYONE ELSE IN THE GAME CAN'T DO. Every Archetype has indirect effects from his powers, this isn't something exclusive to Force Fields that magically makes them able to do anything with just Def and Knockback.

And you're really only talking about Force Bubble, and only if you exploit it to force a foe into a wall. I can't believe that is the way the devs intended for it to be used. Again and again the devs have nerfed powers which could be used to repeatedly knockback foes and keep them off their feet permanently, and the only reason FF hasn't gotten this treatment is that it would break Force Bubble's ONLY effect.

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Personal Force Field lets you mimic a Tank, especially if you take Provoke, Aid Self, and any sort of halfway decent AoE control, including Repulsion Bomb.

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You cannot hold aggro with Personal Force Field up. You may be able to act like a tank in an emergency, but you will never be able to tank for the team as long as you have the lowest Defense on that team.

Unless, of course, you're a Mastermind. Which I'm sure is the experience you are coming from with this statement. Maybe I'm jumping to conclusions, but I'd say it's a good 90% chance of it.

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Repulsion Bomb, Force Bolt, and Repulsion Field allow you to perform chaos control that can only be rivaled by a Storm build.

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That's very true, and one of PhiloticKnight's best arguments. The big question is, can Force Field's damage output match Storm's or Kinetics, the other two sets that are capable of major knockback effects? (And, I will add, are both capable of healing...)

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I suggest the idea that the reason so many types of debuffs aren't in Force Fields is because they're already in Force Fields.

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If Force Bubble was actually able to push foes far enough away that you could keep from taking ranged damage from them, I might buy this. But there's nothing FF gives you in this area that other Defenders can't do as well. You want to juggle a foe in the corner? Use Hurricane. Want to take a foe out of the fight? Use Black Hole. Want to keep a foe from firing at you, hit him with Parylizing Gaze or EMP Pulse. Want to immobilize him, use Choking Cloud or, I dunno, maybe an immobilize.

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This would hurt it's ability to be used with geometry for protection. It'd also hurt your ability to spread out the baddies, allowing the team to focus on one sub-group at a time.

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Not really, you'd just have to be closer to the geometry. This would actually be an advantage, the power would be MORE useful, not less. (As you could use it in less confined spaces where there is no corner to force the foes to remain close to you)

To divide up foes, you would merely need to separate yourself slightly from the rest of the team to "cut off" adds from the rear. You could still remain close enough to keep Dispersion Bubble on everyone, but you would essentially be a "wall" that the foes couldn't come around. You could do the same thing on the other side by standing between the meleers on one side and squishies on the other, protecting them all with your Dispersion Bubble while the Force Bubble shoves your foes BACK INTO the meleers, instead of AWAY from them.

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In return, we'd get a -Speed which, in practice, Force Bubble already has.

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By this definition, Mass Domination is a -Speed.

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Actually Repel and -Speed are not the exactly the same thing. -Speed keeps the foe from getting into melee with you, while maintaining his distance from you.

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Or keeps him in melee with you.

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For some people, that is a positive.

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If you want -Speed, there are already many options available to Defenders. There are no other options for a Repel like Force Bubble. And that Repel, used with geometry and a smiggin of Control, shuts down baddies argueably as well as any other power in the game. -Speed doesn't.

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Actually, if you want -Speed, there is an option for almost EVERY Defender.

Dark - Tar Patch
Kinetics - Siphon Speed
Radiation - Lingering Radiation
Storm - Freezing Rain
Trick Arrow - Glue Arrow

We can throw in some Corruptor and Mastermind Buff/Debuff sets while we're at it:

Cold - Snow Storm
Traps - Caltrops
Poison - Neurotoxic Breath

You might also consider those powers that add Speed to allies, or protect them from Slow. (Or even Immobilize) But clearly Slow is not something that is limited to only a few options. It is fairly universal, and in fact it is one of the few control powers that is common to Defender, and equal in strength to a Controller. Perhaps because it can be through of as a debuff. (To speed of movement and attack)

Let's consider this, "Why don't you play an X" argument for a moment. Would you like for all duplicate powers or effects to be removed from all Buff/Debuff sets? Remember, this is our issue; that Force Field has too FEW effects, compared to other Primaries. Shall we remove all other Defense from all other sets so it can be unique to Force Field? Shall we remove all the knockback from Kin and Storm? How about removing all heals from anything but Empathy? All Resistance from all sets but Sonic? All -To Hit from anything but Dark, and all -Def from anything from Radiation? Is that what you want?

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Good points Jade. I should have said that I'd scrap the repel effect of Force Bubble and swap it with a slow effect. The only problem with +dam is that at some point, a cap is reached; -res isn't as likely to reach the resistance debuff cap.

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Well, I don't want to scrap the Repel entirely, I feel it is very possible to decrease the diameter of the Repel, and thus make it much more useful, but stacking it with a Slow.

In the other hand, the Repel could be in another power from the Slow. We could divide the effect between Force Bubble and Repulsion Field, for instance. Or, Force Bubble could have both effects if you want to leave Repulsion Field as is. The truth is, if the Slow is effective enough, it would be possible to eliminate the bubble entirely, and just run into melee range with Repulsion Field to "repel" your foes out of the circle YOU define.

Of course, Repulsion Field is Knockback, not Repel, but Hurricane combines Repel and Knockback, so that's not out of the question. (Waits for magicj's inevitable "Why don't you just play Storm?" response)

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And Force Bubbble, in practice, already does -Speed. It also does -Damage and -Recharge. It does these things through changes in the AI the baddies use while fighting the Repel of the bubble.

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Actually Repel and -Speed are not the exactly the same thing. -Speed keeps the foe from getting into melee with you, while maintaining his distance from you. Repel (or knockback) also keeps the foe out of melee, but it also forces the foe further away from you, thus possibly putting him out of your range.

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-Swap the values of Dispersion & Deflection/Insulation; this would keep the value of defence offered by a FF the same for the team, but increase the survivability of the FF'er.

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I'm on the fence over this type of change. I like what it would mean for the FF Defender character's survivability, but I'm concerned about what it would mean for team members. This is especially true in PvP where it is very difficult to keep players within the radius of Dispersion Bubble.

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I personally prefer simply increasing the portion of the Def for the Force Fielder himself, if that's possible. Or even add a second personal Def (only) shield to some other power like Repulsion Field or Force Bubble.

As for the argument that this would make herding easier, the damage mitigation of a Dark is already superior to an FF with Dispersion Bubble alone. Thus the common statement that "The FFer is the weakest defended player on his team". Since herding typically entails the use of Personal Force Field, which pretty much overrides any lesser Defense, I don't think an additional 10-15% Defense would make herding dramatically easier.

Honestly, though, I'd rather have the damage boost and get my personal defenses from the Power Pool, as Arcanaville suggested.

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-Change Force Bubble into a -res, -speed PBAoE. This would give us a way of increasing our damage solo and on a team and I in my opinion still fit within the theme of FF.

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As much as I'd love to have a -Res power in FF, I have a hard time rationalizing it. -ACC, ToHitDebuff, -Spd, etc. all work for the power.

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The problem with Force Bubble is that you can't apply any effects to any foes when they're being flung right back out of the effect. So in order to apply the debuff, you have to either remove the Repel, or reduce its radius. I think it's radius CAN be reduced if you add a Slow effect, as that will keep foes from getting too far into the bubble before they get flung out.

The nice thing about a +Dmg boost, though, is that it can be applied to everyone within the bubble, and it will apply to any damage they apply the foes whether those targets are in the bubble or not. And personally, I find +Dmg to be closer to concept than -Res. (And less stealing from Sonic's concept)

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The irony is that the big three are so Big (i.e. capable) that it ought to leave lots of room for power pools and especially secondary powers, and yet FF is considered an offensive penalty. The FF set itself doesn't have a lot of offense, but you'd think a defender that only took three powers in the primary (and they are all good powers), had nothing but 4 minute cycling clicks, and very low endurance burn rate when operating at full efficiency would have a lot of room for offense.

If Super Reflexes were changed to a set that had one toggle with 30% defense to melee/ranged (slotted), one with 30% AoE defense, practiced brawler, and a bunch of crap powers, super reflexes scrappers would complain about having a lot of crap powers but not very loudly. Its a design flaw in FF, but many people would probably love to have that sort of design flaw.

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There's two complicating factors involved with this:

1) The FF Defender cannot bubble himself with two of the "Big Three". So in your example above, the SR scrapper would get a 10% melee/ranged/AoE power, and then another 20% Defense power he could only put on someone else. So essentially he's got 7 "crap powers", not 6... to him, anyway.

2) Scrappers also don't have a penalty to their damage due to the majority of them having an offense boost in their Secondary. So for instance if a Scrapper only had 80% damage, (30% less than 112.5) but all Scrappers but Super Reflexes got a 30% damage boost, then that SR Scrapper would have 80% damage and 10% Defense... not quite enough to solo, I don't think.

Now, granted a Defender doesn't HAVE to solo, but this is one of the things that makes soloing the set so hard, and this is part of why very few players can stick with it. You either have to REALLY want to be a team support character, or you find some way to make do with the "crap" powers that aren't really that useful to your team. (Like Detention Field)

Another point is that most of the defensive powers from the Pool, (Manuevers being the exception) only effect the Defender himself. This clearly has bearing on the solo situation, but it's a power that really doesn't help the FF in a team, except to get his damage mitigation up to a level that matches his teammates.

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The point being, it's things like this that were the reasons I dropped my FF Defender. It just doesn't stack up to FFers from other ATs, despite having, for the most part, better FF powers.

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Do you think Rad, Dark, and Kin Defenders are all right, or do they need a damage boost? Wouldn't boosting their damage now make them TOO powerful?

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Just for the record, I didn't call it a damage buff, I said it's a way to increase damage. Technically, there's a difference.

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I've been using the phrase "damage boost" for the same reason. This includes damage buffs, Resistance debuffs, recharge increases, and technically speaking, Endurance regen, to hit buff, and Defense debuff.

I say "technically speaking" because I think in practice the latter three don't actually boost damage, just the potential for damage in certain conditions. Herding would probably be considered a damage boost, if it was considered such, in the same sense, under those specific conditions.

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Well, what I said was an FF Defender can increase the damage from their powers by herding.

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I'm assuming that the term "damage boost" refers to "increased damage that does not instantly get you killed".

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I also said that herding for an FF Defender isn't anywhere near as safe as herding for a FFer with a different set. This is because of the way Defender's nukes work, not because of how their FF powers work.

So no, it doesn't contradict my point. It _is_ my point. The performance of Defender's secondaries put the FF Defender at a disadvantage as compared to other FFers.

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It is not the "performance" of Defender Secondaries that is the problem. It is the "nature" of Defender Secondaries. Defender Secondaries deal damage. That's what they do, deal with it, accept it, that's never going to change.

Now, as for WHY the nature of Defender Secondaries cause them to not mesh well with Force Field, well, you said it yourself, because they don't do enough damage. But did I not already say that Force Field needs a damage boost so its Secondaries can do the same damage other Defenders can do? Would that damage boost then not allow the Defender Secondaries to do what they are intended to do, deal damage, fast enough to deal with the aggro generated by herding?

When a Rad Defender fires off his nuke, does he have a problem with his foes remaining, ready to kill him off while he's vulnerable? If a Kin Defender fires off Fulcrum Shift and then nuke, does he leave any foes standing? Granted those are extreme examples, Dark wouldn't do nearly as much damage, but that's MY point.

You say Force Field doesn't work well with Defender Secondaries because Defender Secondaries don't do enough damage. Well, wouldn't they do more damage if Force Field buffed them?

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Because it's unsafe to use a nuke after herding, the abilities of a FF Defender are greatly reduced. Because of the tiny scatter of Repulsion Bomb, the effectiveness of Defenders' blasts is greatly reduced. Ditto for Repulsion Field.

The strength of FF at herding is one of the better reasons to take the set. But that strength is effectively nullified by the behavior of the Defenders' nuke.

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Wait a minute. Aren't you effectively contradicting YOUR OWN ARGUMENT? You were just saying that a Force Fielder is the equal of any other Defender, because he could buff his damage by herding. Yet here you clearly state that a Force Fielder CAN'T herd because to do so would expose him to too much risk, and result in defeat and debt.

So which is it? Does FF need a damage boost, because it needs one to compete with the sets that have one, or does it NOT need it, because it can herd?

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If you hit 5 guys at once, you are doing 5 times as much damage as you would be hitting one guy at a time with the same attack.

Thus, bubble herding "buffs" damage output.

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Yes, but at in increase risk of being killed, plus additional time gathering up the herd. Plus, just about any AT with any defenses at all can do that. It's not something Force Fielders can magically do that no one else can. It takes additional effort for very little benefit over what another Defender can achieve doing the same thing.

And one thing I do NOT want is Force Field to have to be stuck into some role like "herding" or "forcing foes against walls" in order to be useful. That encourages people to select FF for teams ONLY for those purposes.

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Now, can an FFer directly buff damage? No. They're not supposed to. They trade away that ability for stong Defense.

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Which was exactly my point. A Tanker trades away some of his ability to deal damage for strong Defense. This doesn't mean that he kills faster than a Scrapper, whether he herds or not. He may be able to kill JUST AS WELL as a Scrapper, taking longer to do it, but he doesn't do more damage just because he herds.

Now, if that's what Force Field was, the Tanker of the Defender Primaries, then I would be happy with that. The problem is that it is NOT. *DARK* is the Tanker of the Defender Primaries, and I have FAR more personal damage mitigation with a Dark than I have with a Force Field. I KNOW that to be the case, because I have soloed both. The defense from Dispersion Bubble alone, the knockback and Detention Field do NOT give me more protection than Darkest Night, Twilight Grasp, and the fear powers.

And I can stand there and fire my sniper attacks on my Dark. I can herd. Anything I can do, solo, with my FF, I can do with my Dark. And be better protected doing it.

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For folks not happy with that trade-off, Storm offers many of the capabilities of FF, but with buffs, debuffs, and extra damage.

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Storm doesn't offer anywhere near the protection of FF. It doesn't offer anywhere near the protection of Dark. And even if I DID accept your suggestion and decide that Storm was what I wanted to play after all, don't you think there should be some reason to play Force Field? I mean, for someone other than a Controller or Mastermind, anyway.

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FF is a big ol' pile of bad design decisions going back to, I'm guessing, "the guy before Geko."

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I wouldn't say that. But I WOULD say FF's concepts all too often ran afoul of in game implementation.

I mean, how do you implement a dome that you put over your team to shield them? Is it a wall to keep out attackers, or a prison to keep them in? Can it be fired through, or does it just keep bodies out? How do you choose where to place it, and does it divide those "inside" from those "outside"?

Some of the Force Field concepts were pretty good ones, but they might have worked better in a tabletop environment, where you're not so limited to variables and graphics.

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YMMV, of course. But I have a 50 Dark/Dark and have played rad to the mid 30s, so I'm at least basing this on experience.

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Your experience is no more and no less valid than mine, PhiloticKnight's, BurningChick's, or anyone else who has played FF. Veiled insults are not valid argument points.

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You might as well say that Tankers can kill faster than Scrappers

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I'd say no. This is comparing apples and oranges. Different ATs. In some cases different attacks. Different damage scales.

Comparing an FF who herds to one that doesn't is a direct comparison. Apples to apples.

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Okay, "You might as well say that a Tanker that herds kills faster than a Tanker that doesn't." Is that a close enough comparison, or "You might as well say that an Invulnerability Tanker that herds kills faster than a Tanker that doesn't"?

You're avoiding the question by trying to restrict the comparison to Force Field, though. I am comparing a Force Fielder that herds to ANOTHER DEFENDER. Like a Dark or a Rad. Because that's the form of our comparison. We are comparing the damage that a FF can do without damage boosts to the damage a Dark or Rad can with such a boost.

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Basically, redundant damage is easier on the ego than redundant defense.

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Well, except when the redundant damage is coming from someone who "shouldn't be doing damage". But that's another argument.

I think personally the problem is not that FF's are not needed on teams, rather, it is that the struggle of trying to solo them, as well as the impression that there is little to do except be a "buffbot", and fire off knockback powers at random is especially tedious to the player. This results in a number of players giving up on FF long before they would be of any use to a team.

Ironically, FFs may be so well recieved on teams because they are so RARE, and they are hard to find. So the fact that FFs perform well on teams and find teams quickly may not mean that there is not an issue. If the datamining also shows that numbers of FFs is low. (Or most FFs are a combination with Controller or Mastermind Primaries, rather than Defenders) then there is a problem.