Jade_Dragon

Cool. I was thinking that would be quite useful.

Masterminds are a lot better at absorbing damage than they are at holding aggro. Provoke is really the main tool for that, but you've got to withstand the damage, not your pets, so it's all about Bodyguard and staying on top of the situation.

That being said, while a foe is taunted, your attacks will draw even more aggro, so that's at least one good use for those low damage attacks. I'm not sure a Tankermind could keep a Brute from stealing the aggro from him, but if he had a long period of time to build it up, maybe. (Unless the Brute used his own Taunt power)

There's always one Battle Drone that insists on running into melee. It's related to the tendency of the Medic and Arsonist to do the same thing. It's actually programmed into the AI, any group of "critters" is designed to split up like that to give the players a better chance of defeating them. Unfortunately in a Mastermind's case, AI designed to make the critters easier to defeat is a bad thing.

There are two ways to deal with it. One is to ignore the fool and let him get killed. I actually have keybinds specifically set up to browbeat the most common culprits for my various MMs. The other is to use goto to call him back, or to move in and support the meleer with your Secondary powers. Usually if he can defeat whatever drove him into such mindless rage, he'll calm down and fight the rest of the spawn at range.

Another possibility is to team him with your Assault Bot. Set your two "tame" Drones to one keybind, and the moron and your Assault Bot to the other. That way if he runs into melee, you can send your Assault Bot to either follow him or provide cover fire. Of course, that doesn't help if one of your other bots start acting up, but I've found nine times out of ten it's the same one.

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Yes, as far as we've been told, the value in that spot can never go below 1. It's a floor in the formula. The fact that the game tells you that you can go to zero seems to be a decently big error. If you could go to zero, then you could literally attack an enemy and never have him return fire.

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Not necessarily. Depending on how aggro is implemented, aggro could merely be the magnitude of the effect, but not the flag indicating the effect. So you could aggro a foe with zero aggro. In fact, if you walk near a foe and alert him to your presense, without firing a shot, you have in fact dealt no damage to him. (Of course, in this case he hesitates before he decides to fire, so the behavior is different than if you shoot him)

If this is what is said to be the behavior, then it's good to know.

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Jade, the link to the Threat formula has been given here, which explains most of what we know about how Threat is generated.

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Actually, I hadn't checked that link, but it is quite complete. It even lists the powers with negative Threat. I guess I just posted to be redundant.

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Other than that, aggro will never be at zero. The Threat formula has a lot of points where the value won't go below 1, so you'll always have at least a 1 value for Threat.

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If AT Mod is a multiplier, and AT Mod is zero, then anything AT Mod is multiplied by will be zero. The formula does not contradict that. However, it is possible a min cap is placed on the AT Mod during the calculation, or the AT Mod is increased by one. The AT Mod itself isn't capped, though, I've seen it go to zero. And it seems to me a waste to allow a value to go to zero, when it will actually not have an effect different from 1.

I suppose it's possible, though, at which time negative Stealth would really only apply to melers, Kheldians, SoA, and Masterminds. I don't think the formula itself is taken from the game, but what the devs have told us that it is.

AFAIK, the -Threat on powers that have it does not suppress. It has nothing to do with stealth (which effects when you gain aggro in the first place) it reduces aggro.

My understanding is that Threat is a multiplier which is applied to your damage when you hit a foe. That is how much aggro you have from that foe. If an ally on your team has twice the Threat rating, he will have twice the aggro, even if he does the exact same damage.

Thus, Super Speed makes it harder for you to get aggro(because of its stealth) and makes you get less aggro when you do get it. (Because of its -Threat) As SS is a travel power, this gives you some protection, since you are not able to fly over foes like with Flying and Super Leap, and stay out of their radius of perception. It can be used in combat, though, as others have mentioned, and will make it easier for the tank to pull aggro off of you.

I'm not quite sure exactly how it works, but since Threat can actually be reduced to zero, I usually guess that your aggro is damage * (Threat+1). I don't think you will get aggro of zero all the time when your Threat is zero, but I suppose it's possible. (An aggro of zero might not mean you can't aggro foes, but you would always be the bottom of the aggro list)

And thanks to StarGeek for posting my list. It's not really clear what gives -Threat and what doesn't, and I suspect this has changed over the years. (I could have sworn Stealth gave -Threat, even though most Brute and Scrapper stealth powers didn't. My list was compiled from City of Data, though, so it's at least as accurate as that)

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We've been SideKicking since the beginning. Level range has always been almost irrelevant if you have people that can SK the lower levels.

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One advantage to the MA is that it autosidekicks. Normally you need to have at least one person in the range of the mission to sidekick one other player. So at most only half the team will be sidekicked.

This is one reason why I'm designing my MA mission to be open to all ranges from 1-53. (Except for the first mission, which caps at 30 for story reasons) If you try to go into it thinking you'll be sidekicked, I think everyone will end up their natural level. (And have to sidekick manually)

It's really quite useless to sidekick a level 10 up to 40, though. While it's nice to get the 10 some levels, he won't gain them any faster than he normally would, and can't do anything. So it's better to just start a whole new set of lowbies if that's what your group or SG wants to do. Or just solo to 22, it doesn't take that long.

I suspect from the Spec Ops powers that Mercs is intended to operate something like Ninjas. They have stealth, a sniper attack, and a number of control powers to blind and hold the foes. Unfortunately, their use of these powers, due to the AI, is too random to provide the kind of protection a constant Defense bonus can. This results in them really underperforming, even though they are the only henchmen that have both Smashing and Lethal Resistance across the board. (Then again, since they can stay at range that's not really an issue)

I think that if their Flash Bombs didn't have a control component, and only debuffed to hit, and recharged MUCH more quickly, they would be considerably better. As it is, I think the devs put too much into a power that's probably supposed to be Smoke Grenade.

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Also, I thought zombies, when using the correct secondary, were pretty damn survivable after the second upgrade.

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I've never played Zombies, which is why I'm not sure why they can be described as that tough when they don't have a Defense buff like Bots and Thugs. However, I think I may have hit it on the head when I guessed at the -Acc debuff for the Dark themed attacks.

I think it's actually pretty cool that the Grave Knights Taunt when they heal themselves. I guess they figure that since they just raised their HP they have some to spend drawing some aggro.

Well, one part of this is that melee attacks are primarily single target damage, you cannot do massive AoE damage in melee, even with PBAoEs. The radius of the attacks is not great enough. And Bots particularly is notorious for doing AoE damage over a massive area, because of the ability to drop multiple Burn patches.

The other problem is that entering into melee itself makes you squishy. None of the MM henchmen (except maybe the Bruiser and Commando) are built for taking melee range damage, and yet in order to deal damage with Ninjas and Necro, the pets have to get into melee. They're just going to take more damage than Mercs, Thugs and Bots, who can just lock down a group of foes with an immobilize and bake them from a safe distance.

Fortunately, while Bots does do a lot of damage in the late game, it's resiliance is paid for by absolutely horrible damage until you get to 32. The Assault Bot is the ONLY one that does any real damage, and neither the Drones nor the Protos get AoE attacks until you get Upgrade. So pre-26 you will be doing only single target damage.

Thugs does great damage prior to 32, but it doesn't have as much resiliance. The Enforcers are the majority of your damage, and get AoE attacks right from level 12, but your Punks have no defense outside of the Enforcers' Manuevers, and you get no heal.

Necromancy, at least, gives you Smashing Resistance on the Zombies, and when you get Upgrade they all get the ability to Siphon Life to heal themselves. (The Lich gets it right out of the box) They also will do more damage simply by being in melee. I suspect both Zombies and Grave Knights could do well with both Smashing and Lethal Resistance, but at least when one of them dies, you can revive them as a Ghost that DOES have those Resistances. (Plus, a lot of Necro's ranged attacks debuff Acc, particularly the Lich's Fearsome Stare)

As for Ninjas, while they are widely regarded as the least resiliant, I think they have a slightly different playstyle than most. While most MMs are built to be meatshields and absorb damage, Ninjas are stealthy and can do Criticals. This is what makes them easily the leaders at single target damage, it means that they have to stalk and split up their opponents, instead of just rushing in and taking them all on at once like other MMs would. Instead of being the MM version of a Brute, they're more like the MM version of a Stalker.

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So one of the DEVS is suggesting we modify our client?

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It's no more modifying the client than saving and editing a bindfile, or saving and editing a costume definition. Not to mention your custom mission files.

I suppose it would be nice to have an interface that lets you save the Quickmenu to a text file that you can then edit and load, but in effect this is the same thing. You just need to know what the file is and how to write it in the first place.

(Have I mentioned this week that I would like to be able to save and load macros?)

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And I say this because you base so much on IOs in your calculations. What Thugs provides with GangWar, any set can achieve with /Storm. Sure, it's easier with just Thugs/But it is by far that set only.

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Oo, forgot /Storm. Tornado! As I said, I thought of Dark Servant, but for some reason it doesn't take RIP Sets. (Which would seem to be perfect given it's longer than normal recharge, but then, maybe that's why...)

Unfortunately, Steamy Mist won't give you as much Def as FFG, though. So even with the Pet sets it won't be able to cap Defense.

The biggest issue seems to be the extra scaling 1% Defense, and the fact that Proto Bots can shield themselves.

Wow, but Mercs/Storm, though? 46.145% Resistance to Smashing and Lethal on all three ranks? I thought Necro had Smashing and Lethal resistance, too, but it's only Smashing, and only the Zombies.

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Not to mention that a Kheld carrying a gun that is empowered to hurt Khelds seems oxymoronic. It would be like Superman carrying Kryptonite in his pocket.

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If you were cleaning it and it went off in your face you'd feel doubly stupid.

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No. Void Hunters are Council mercenaries infused with Nictus Fragments (The solidified essensces of Nictus) and outfitted with Quantum Array Guns.

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Yeah, that's another thing. While Quantums are not usually a big problem as long as you watch for them, I hate running into Voids because they're resistant to YOUR attacks. That's when it's a good idea to have a Vet Reward power, or just close to melee and clobber them with a Smashing attack.

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answered in the MM forum. Zombies > all

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I find myself wondering what could be done with Zombies if those Recharge Intensive Pet Sets could be put there somewhere. Unfortunately, I don't see either Soul Extraction or Dark Servant (for Necro/Dark) allowing it, and MMs don't get Arachnos pets. So it'll just have to be "what if".

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just checked using second build which i've never set on my thugs/traps and they give 8.43% per enforcer at level 50 unenhanced. doing the same on my 50 bots/traps the probots are 7.5% unenhanced

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Yep, I got the same results from analyzing your numbers in the other thread. So I'd consider it confirmed.

If the way City of Data describes the modifier being applied is right, Manuevers should give increasing Defense per level the same way henchmen Resistances rise due to level.

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without provoke it's pretty damn hard to keep anything on the mastermind itself once the pets open up. i dont even use the patron shield anymore.

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I believe that's part of the definition of "Tankermind". Taking Provoke, that is.

We're speaking in general, though, not specific, so the preference for Bots in Tankerminding would not be an issue.

Then again, it could be argued that pairing Thugs with Traps or FF would not be general. You would not get the same results with Thugs/Dark or Thugs/Pain. In fact, in comparing Thugs/Dark to Bots/Traps, I can speak from my own experience.

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the numbers i posted are as they appear in game from the combat attributes panel

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Then I'm guessing they are rounded off.

A quick analysis: You have 41% Def on your other Bots, and 31% Def on your Proto Bots. As the only difference there could be between the two is the Force Shield, that sets the strength of the Force Shields at 10%. 10% means that you have a 33% boost due to Enhancements, while with 2 SOs you should see a 40% boost to a defense. As 140% of 7.5 is 10.5, I would put that error off to round off.

This means that there is 21% Defense unaccounted for. 5% of this defense is from your Pet Damage Enhancement. That means 16% is coming from you and your Force Field Generator. FFG has 10% Defense, so with 3 slotted Defense in it you should have ~15.7%

So your total is
16% (FFG) + 5% (IO) + 10% (FS) + 10% (FS) = 41%

Now, assuming you have Traps slotted exactly the same, your Thugs should be as follows:

16% (FFG) + 5% (IO) + 5% (IO) + 10.25% (Mnv) + 10.25% (Mnv) = 46.5%

Again, that's rounded off, so there could be some error. But you can see there seems to be a problem, you have MORE Defense with the Enforcers you had with the Protos, but with half the Defense slotted. If we assume Manuevers is 7.5%, then your slotting modifier should be:

10.25/7.5% = 1.367

On the other hand, if we assume the slotting modifier is 1.2, which it should be for 1 IO, then it is:

10.25/1.2 = 8.52

Thank you. You have just verified City of Data. Manuevers at level 50 provides 8.5% Defense, not 7.5. Although there is probably still a rounding error above, just like there was with the Thugs, 8.5 represents a much smaller margin of error from 8.52 than 7.5.

So I must concede, Thugs Manuevers actually does provide MORE Defense than Force Sheild. Whether or not this is intentional I really can't say. However, according to City of Data this value is not constant, but increases as you get closer to 50. It is actually closer to 6.5 at level 1, and would be 7.5 at about level 26.

Considering this is such a small value compared to the fact that Proto Bots get only one shield, I'll say that's unimportant and concede the whole argument. It appears as if Thugs and Bots are intended to be more in balance in terms of defense. You still do have healing, to balance the lack of a shield in the Proto Bot, and the extra effort required to make sure the Proto Bots stay alive is probably just shifted from the Bruiser, which has to be in melee to deal damage. With capped Defense it may not be noticable to you, but I know with my Thugs/Dark I need to keep a close eye on my Bruiser, although he's quite capable of tanking for the team as long as I do.

I'll also add that only Bots will place a Defense on you. If you're not Tankerminding, though, that may not be a concern. And also, while the higher firepower of Thugs at low levels does help their survivability, if you are on a team, lack of firepower doesn't hinder you. And in fact, it may be easier to protect your Proto Bots and keep them from the fate you describe above.

I suppose the answer is, "It depends".

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actually i did address the healing of the probots - they dont heal too well when dead.

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It doesn't matter -- they DO heal, therefore the survivability due to healing DOES count. You're only seeing a difference because you have softcapped Defense, with factors that have NOTHING to do with Force Shields vs Manuevers. In short, your behavior is entirely and only because you have a power in which you can slot Recharge Intensive Pet Sets.

You should also be getting at least somewhat more shielding with 2 Defense IOs, unless you are rounding off the numbers that you posted. I'm guessing the latter is the case, although with more Defense slotted the difference between the Protector Bots and the other Bots would be even greater...

The title of this post is "in a vacumn", though, not "at level 50 with all the money I need to totally IO my character out".

It's a combination of Brawl and Fire Breath. Although he has good attacks, they all take a long time to recharge. So he uses his long range attacks, closes to short range for Fire Breath, and with nothing else to do, closes to melee to Brawl.

I just call him an idiot and let him get killed. Fortunately most of the time he's near the Bruiser so I can heal them both together.

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when you consider you can add 10% more defense and 20% more resistance from 4 io's in gang war - still ignoring the secondary here - thugs wins out entirely.

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The Def/Res numbers do not address the fact that Proto Bots can heal other bots, without your needing to address the situation personally, and Thugs does not. This isn't just an advantage in battle, it means that if your henchmen take hits, the Proto Bots will typically heal them up before the next battle begins.

And I've never had problems with bubbles wearing off and not being reapplied immediately. At best I would say that you've shown that you can get Bots level defense out of Thugs by spending huge amounts of influence on IOs. And by that same token, Bots by that level will be doing as much damage as Thugs if not more.

It's kind of like Ninjas and Thugs, really. Thugs is better most of the time, Ninjas is better in a specific case. For defense, Bots is better most of the time, Thugs is better in a specific case. Of course, the fact that Thugs is in both of those lists says something.

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each probot bubble and each enforcer manuevers is 7.5% base defense.

[/ QUOTE ]Enforcer Maneuvers is 8.5% base, not 7.5%

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If City of Data is right, Enforcer Manuevers is 6.5% at level 1, and 8.5% at level 50. Around level 25 or so it should be 7.5%.

I intend to check this out, because it surprises me. Although I can see why henchmen would gain stronger defenses as they go up in level. Why Thugs would get this and not Bots I do not know.

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Overall Brutal Upfront Damage: Ninjas

Ranged Damage: Thugs (w/some melee of course)

AoE Damage: Thugs

Survivability: Bots


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I will second that. I'm not sure if JupiterMoon was trying to be funny (Ninjas is best damage, but only in a limited way) or just forgot Bots.

Bots is easily the most survivable, with the Protector Bots' shields and healing powers, and their innate Lethal (but not Smashing!) protection. Enforcers gives Thugs good defense as well, but 1) I believe Force Sheild is supposed to have higher defense (City of Data has some inconsistent modifiers that may or may not be in game) 2) Thugs doesn't have a heal and 3) Punks have no innate defense, Enforcers have only the same Lethal as Bots, and Bruiser has both Smash and Lethal defense. (As well as Fire, Cold and Toxic)

What this basically means is that while Bots has consistent protection across all three tiers, Thugs has a very tough Bruiser, fairly tough Enforcers, and fragile Punks. And since the Enforcers do the majority of Thugs' damage, you have to sacrifice damage to 3 slot them for defense, while 3 slotting Protector Bots for Defense will only cost you a small portion of your overall damage. And you can slot Heal for even more resiliance. (Although there are limited returns on that, due to the AI and the fact that the Proto Bot heal is pretty good out of the box)

As for damage, Ninjas do the highest single target damage, but once you get up to about 2.5 targets per AoE attack Thugs begins to surpass them. This doesn't include Criticals, though, so Ninjas may still be the overall better damage dealer. Thugs can attack at range, however, which gives them much better survivability than Ninjas, so if you're regularly going to be facing spawns of three or more foes, the damage difference will probably be negligible.

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Dark control / dark assault is also an obvious combination.

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Unfortunately, since Dark Control would have to be created from the ground up, we couldn't really know if it would have unique features, or just be similar to Earth/Fire/Ice. Most likely it will have Fear based powers as a unique addition. However, it would have to be careful not to overlap with Dark Miasma, if Controllers are allowed to take it. Unless Dark Miasma is changed for Controllers, like Psi was for Blasters.

It could be done well, or it could not.

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I know many others may not care, but I would really like access to a Group Teleport for Warshades. I don't need access to the teleport power pool, I just want another power selection at the same time Group Flight opens up for Peacebringers.

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Warshades get the same number of powers as Peacebringers. And I think Shadow Cloak is intended to be the equivalent power to Group Energy Flight. (It comes a slot earlier, but that just means Warshades get their final sheild a slot later) And I definately think Warshades get the better end of that deal.

A Scrapper moves very fast. A Tanker moves very slow. A Brute moves like a freight train, taking time to get up to speed, but then you can't stop it.

Your Brute is going to get more attention from his foes and be able to tank somewhat better, while the Scrapper will have more options to split up his foes and take them on one at a time. I think the advantages and disadvantages of each are about equal on each side, but the Scrapper it's not as easy to enumerate. (I think listing just one advantage to playing a Scrapper is a bit extreme. There's not going to be a lot that isn't largely a matter of opinion, though)

Personally, I like pairing SR with Stealth so I can get a sort of Stalker feel out of it. You're not really going to be a main tank, although you can keep an eye out for problems and take on runners or foes that come at your allies.