Jade_Dragon

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I was always curious about this: what would happen if a Kheld fused with someone, willingly, of less-than-noble persuasion? It would still be a Peacebringer or Warshade, just an evil one?

Nictus attempt to dominate their hosts. The kheldian AT's are both more-or-less-equal partners, and yet the kheldian ATs seem to unerringly pick hosts who will become heros, never villains?

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That's an interesting question. And I suppose it is bound to happen.

For Warshades, I guess they would just be Nictus. Maybe independent Nictus, having already made the decision not to control their host, but merely to partner with it, but the backstory seems to imply that the Warshades are merging with a willing human for the first time, as a sort of experiment. So the Warshades really start off as "evil", and take on good qualities because of their host and because they're tired of it. Merge with an evil host and they will probably retain most of their willingness to sacrifice and experiment on others to gain power.

A Peacebringer would be more interesting. It's possible that the Peacebringers that rebel against the others in some of the story arcs do so because of their hosts, for whatever reason the host is more aggressive and less trusting than the norm. It's also true that Peacebringers themselves are not particularly good, they seem somewhat amoral, with a code of conduct somewhat different from us, being made of energy. They also tend to distrust Warshades in their natural form, only learning to trust from being with humans.

So yeah, I could see all sorts of possibilities here. The Peacebringer could find himself manipulated by an evil human, and once their personalities merge, the darker nature of the Peacebringer itself could come out.

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i'm generally not a hardcore roleplayer, but i do enjoy casual roleplaying. i will "talk" in character as i blow [censored] up and even engage in banter with teammates that's in character.

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I have keybinds I have defined to make my character spout random phrases that are in character for him or her. Literally speaking, though, that's not really role playing since it's not in response to anything, it's just as mechanical and automated as the game itself. So it's a role in some sense, but it's also still a game.

I'll occasionally go "in character" if I find the others on the team are doing it as well, but many times I'll also just talk as "the person behind the wheel", so to speak. My character is my character and has a personality and backstory, but I'll just interact with the other players as a player.

I guess it takes experience to learn how to draw the line between the two. And perhaps, a bit of a split personality.

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At low levels this may be an issue as you may have no much say in the matter, but after having enough powers or ability to build this "forced gaps" vanishes.

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I truthfully don't think at low levels the speed at which you build Domination depends as much on how fast you attack, as simply how many shots you get off before a foe dies. Over the time of a mission, including downtime and resting, it should come out as a wash.

Amusingly enough, when I started my /Fire Dom, Flares had that 3 second animation time I was talking about. I wasn't using that to build Domination.

Actually, I think the changes to the ranged attacks have more impact on the Domination building strategies than the melee attacks. However, in the case of Energy and Psi, this may be a necessary evil to counter the lack of AoE damage in Energy, and then nerf to PSW for Psi.

At least the adjustment to the Tier 1 attacks seems to help this. Honestly, that Flares has gone from "never take this power ever, under any circumstances" (back in the days when it had a 3 sec cast time or some such) to "my attack chains are using 30% more End and I can't sustain them" says a lot more about how important it is to balance these attacks. Or so I think...

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ah my bad. Southern and I aren't saying the same things though, I certainly never said they are a melee AT, which seemed to be a part of your counter to things I was saying.

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Well, I posted my contradiction to that quote, and you posted to contradict me. So you'll forgive my conclusion that you were supporting that position.

When you get right down to it, both Blasters, which aren't a melee archetype, and Stalkers, which are one, have the same hit points. So honestly, I don't think whether or not an AT is a "melee archetype" really has any bearing anyway. As I said, I don't think the Blaster hit point boost was anything but a bone tossed to the player base. It might help Blasters on a team, where they can get some defense, and it might help Dominators on a team, too. But I think the fact that Dominators can more consistently hold foes than Blaster can will make a bigger difference to the devs.

It's not that I'm opposed to the idea, I just don't think it's realistic. Either because it would be acceptable to the devs, or that it would actually help with a Dom's soloability, or performance against an AV.

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You seem to be the only one that keeps trying to pigeon hole them into a melee archetype. They aren't.

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Quoting Southern_Comfort:

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I'm going to bite here and cross my fingers that it doesnt go awry.
Dominators all have a damage secondary chalk full of melee attacks. Why in the world would a dominator NOT be considered a melee archetype?

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Gauntlet, the power, is just a placeholder. The Taunt effect in all Tanker attacks IS Gauntlet.

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that is why i mentioned Brutes who have taunt in all their attacks but do not have Gauntlet.

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For Brutes, Gauntlet is single target, the target hit. For Tankers, Gauntlet is an AoE.

Yes, Brutes have the equivalent of Gauntlet, and most people call it Gauntlet. Whether or not Brutes having a version of Gauntlet that is "not quite as good as" Tanker Gauntlet is good or bad is up to you.

In general, though, villains have much more effective Inherents than heroes do. Heroes have higher base abilities, though. If a Tanker were to get some sort of big damage bonus from Gauntlet, it would probably be at the cost of his base damage. (Like how the damage may be removed from Domination on Dominators, and put into the base damage, but in reverse)

Gauntlet, the power, is just a placeholder. The Taunt effect in all Tanker attacks IS Gauntlet.

Gauntlet isn't really useful to the Tanker himself, but it is useful to the team. While solo, Gauntlet isn't really an advantage, and can actually attract unintended attention unless you take into consideration its effect.

Honestly, though, I like this. I like the feeling that I'm a loud, boisterous superhero who goes stomping through the mission yelling, "Hey, bad guys! Come and get your beat down!"

I'll add that when Gauntlet was introduced, Tankers also got a 10% damage boost. This was not tied to Gauntlet, but it was definately part of the revamp of the AT that Gauntlet was meant to address. The concept of Fury also originated with Tankers, but it would found to be too overpowered unless the character had reduced defenses, as Brutes do.

Typically, the devs will not include Beta patch notes on the main site. They're just posted in the forums. I guess they made an exception this time because they wanted to call so much attention to the Open Beta.

At any rate, there could be lots of tweaks to the Dom changes before they go Live. They probably wouldn't be posted on the main site until they do.

The basic idea of the changes is that the damage boost from Domination has been moved into the base damage of the AT, and that Energy, Psi and a bunch of other Assault Sets have gotten attacks that do more damage, but take longer to recharge and cost more End. Reaction to the latter change has been mixed.

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It is massive multiplayer online that is the true focus- how involved players choose to get with their characters is entirely up to them.

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You realize, of course, that any interation with another user in a virtual environment is in a sense role playing. You are not REALLY trading a Luck Charm to that person so he can build an Accuracy Enhancement. You are trading bits of text represented electronically in a computer so he can activate some code processing which will add other bits of electronic text to his entry in the database. Likewise, you are not teaming with that other user to defeat MOBs, you are sending bits of electronic information through the network to a server to synchronize your reduction of the values associated with that entity's continuance with his reduction of those same values.

In fact, you aren't even reading this. You are looking at pixels on a cathode ray tube. Or a grid of diodes that change transparency when electricity is passed through them.

At some point, you've got to make some symbolic representation of what you're looking at.

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I'd love one of each style EAT on each side, a branching one, and a form one.

Longbow and Nictus?

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Going Rogue with a Warshade would be pretty much equivalent to a Nictus. SoA are a little different, you would still have the Arachnos costume and powers. However, that's just slot 1 for the costume, you could just make your second slot into a Longbow costume and say you're a defector.

The only adjustment I ever made for my Masterminds when the Upgrade power was changed is that I switched out the Recharge SO for an Endurance SO. Recharge is no longer needed, since you only need to use the power once for each summon or resummon of your pets, and the one End makes the cost manageable enough. I still use up my End bar on the summoning process, but then I always did.

I don't particularly like the change (for one thing, I have to either summon the Bruiser after I give everyone else the first Upgrade, or move him out of its radius) but it's really neither a nerf nor a buff. It's faster when you're first setting up, but costs more End when you're recovering from a wipe. I just wait until I lose enough henchmen and resummon and upgrade them all at once.

Since the addition of Bodyguard shortly after release, there have been no other significant changes to Masterminds as a whole. There simply is no difference.

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Oddly, I have a FF defender that has no END issues even with bubbling an eight-stacked team. Anyone know if the END cost is the same for both AT's?

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No. Masterminds have additional End cost in all of their powers. This is normally pointed out in regards to attacks, but it's also true of all Secondary powers as well. It has been this way since release. Well, with the single exception of Traps.

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Many people don't even read patch notes - they won't know anything's changed at all, except they might notice they do a bit more damage or a power recharges more slowly than it does now. Most people, if they find out at all, will find out by word of mouth.

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Most testers seem to be reporting that the increase in damage is quite noticable. And that's not just one or two testers, that's nearly everyone, with all sorts of playing styles. I would only call it a "bit more damage" if you were perma-Dom before, and that's not a casual player.

I don't think it's realistic to believe that a casual player WON'T notice the increased damage. Certainly not to Energy.

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We aren't saying Dominators are a melee archetype, just that they are often pushed into melee range to play, similar to how blasters used to be.

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Blasters still have that option. And in fact, Blasters still do considerable damage with their melee attacks. There's just less of a feeling that they HAVE to enter melee to do enough damage to survive.

With Dominators, there probably is a sense that they have to enter melee to deal enough damage to survive. But that doesn't make them a melee archetype. Meleers remain in melee, and they have Defense, that is what makes them able to remain in melee and not have to wait until it is safe to move in, and move out of melee when it is not.

Dominators, like Blasters, are a combination of range and melee. They're not going to get the hit points of a meleer. And they're unlikely to get the hit points of a Blaster as long as they have longer lasting holds than a Blaster.

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O rly........ well yay!!! Stalkers get crits... doms do not. Dominator's need more hp.

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Heh. I guess that's as good a logic as any.

(And actually, I always said Domination should have been a Crit, but that would have made the difference between the two even GREATER. Maybe like a 50% Crit, though? After modifiers?)


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/Signed on both

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It's a bit late for that now.

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That's not a solution that's a nerf. Nerfing /dark won't help make /ta any better so that's pointless. Yes I realize that there are different versions of different powers.

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Yes, that would be a nerf. However, if a Defender were to do exactly the same damage with, say, Nova that a Blaster does, the equivalent of the same 1.125 damage mod, and no other Defender Tier 9 did this, likely both Blaster and Defender players (those who didn't play /Energy) would point out this inconsistency. And if the devs were to change the Defender version of Nova so it has the same 0.65 damage mod that all other Defender attacks do, this would also be a nerf.

Of course, this sort of thing is already constantly happening all the time when it comes to psuedo-pets anyway. For instance, Blizzard.

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Why not make disruption a pseudo pet considering it's "dropped" just like tar patch and increase it's -res 10%.

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As I said, Disruption IS a psuedo-pet. It uses the Controller scale. (Controllers don't get Dark Miasma, so that is probably why there is only the one version of Tar Patch. Although note Corruptors get it, too. And it does exactly the same -30% Res it does for a MM)

To make a long thread short, Dark is a mostly defensive set. It excels at keeping you and your allies safe. TA is a well balanced mix of offensive and defensive debuffs and controls. It excels at nothing, but does all things well.

For the other side of the coin, look at Kinetic. Its defensive capability is very low (to the Defender himself, there is only the -Dam from Siphon Power and Fulcrum Shift, although Fulcrum Shift's damage reduction can get pretty extreme) but it has extremely powerful +Dam and Endurance/Recharge boosting abilities. This can turn a whole team into damage dealing monsters.

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O rly........ well yay!!! Stalkers get crits... doms do not. Dominator's need more hp.

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Heh. I guess that's as good a logic as any.

(And actually, I always said Domination should have been a Crit, but that would have made the difference between the two even GREATER. Maybe like a 50% Crit, though? After modifiers?)

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Dominator Hp cap is 1606. Same as stalkers. Y'all didnt know that?

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I never said I didn't know that. In fact, I said that on a team it would be possible for a Dominator to get an HP boost.

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I disagree that their role in a team is supplemental damage. It used to be. But now they have been deemed dual role by the dev team. Dual role means they should be able to play either role effectively. Unfortunately aoe damage rules the roost in teams, and doms are st specialists.

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Which is why they will only be supplemental damage, and not primary damage. In order to deal AoE damage, or extreme ST damage, the Dom will have to get close to melee range. At least they will do MORE damage, now, than they did previously. Or at least, they will outside of Domination.

Well, in truth the changes to most of the Power Sets should also make them do more damage than they had done in Domination, although at the cost of more Endurance. I'm not sure that's why that was changed, though. As I said, I feel that's more aimed to soloability than team role.

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I'm going to bite here and cross my fingers that it doesnt go awry.
Dominators all have a damage secondary chalk full of melee attacks. Why in the world would a dominator NOT be considered a melee archetype?

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Blasters have a damage Secondary chock full of melee attacks. (Except Devices, and they can still deal damage with their Secondary, it's just mines placed to go off later) That doesn't make Blasters a melee Archetype.

As I said, Stalkers get a great benefit from the added HP, since they have defensive powers that can reduce some of the incoming damage. On a team, Dominators should be able to gain some defenses as well, if a teammate buffs them, or debuffs the foes. The higher HP cap might come in handy, in that case, since you might have a teammate which can buff your HP as well. (Right now that would be Cold Domination, so a Corruptor, or a Defender if you're in a co-op zone)

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Ok? So you want travel suppression in PVE,Jade?

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Of course not. If a Dominator was unable to jump in and out of melee, then obviously it would have to have more hit points. Meleers do not jump in and out of melee, though. Only Blasters and Doms do that. (Well, there was the old days of "jousting" with Super Speed, but I don't know if I would call that meleeing)

Well, first of all, Tar Patch only does -30% res because it is a dropped psuedo-pet. "Pet" powers often do not have different values depending on the Archetype's modifiers. In some cases they do, so obviously one solution would be to have Masterminds get their own version of Tar Patch that has only a 18% -Res. Acid Arrow for Defenders is -25% Res and -25% Def.

Second, I'm not sure what you mean by "What good is -Def when your enemies are still coming at you." Sure, if you have capped to hit, -Def isn't really all that useful. Still, a -Def of 15% is about the same as a -Res of 30%, using the rule of thumb that 1 Res = 2 Def. Sure, you would like to have a little more damage, but that's what Disruption Arrow is for. (And wouldn't you know it, it doesn't have the Defender level debuff, although it does have the Controller version)

Third, Trick Arrow isn't really a defensive/debuff set like Dark is. It is more of a combination of debuff and controls. You've got fairly good defenses, better accuracy than Dark, an outright hold, and some other soft controls, plus the ability to light Oil Slick.

You can't really compare one effect to another straight out, unfortunately.

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However, doms still have low HP, which is contrary to fighting in melee.

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I don't think there is any way Doms will get more hit points. They may get boosted to the level of Corruptors, but I doubt they would get the hit points of Blasters or Stalkers. For one thing, they have plenty of Control powers to make sure a foe is locked down before they get into melee, for another, they have ranged attacks, allowing them to stay out of melee.

Dominators are not really intended to be in melee, like a Scrapper or Brute, they are intended to be at close range, just outside of melee range, but close enough to use a Cone or PBAoE.

And honestly, the HP buff to Blasters did very little to help them. (It did help Stalkers, but that's because they have defensive powers to multiply their effective HP) It was really nothing more than for show. An extra 7% hit points isn't really going to mean much to the average hit.

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I agree with the prediction that the changes will not increase dom popularity longterm. Even with the patch yesterday perma is still greatly a necessity because of the reasons myself and many other players have stated.

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I don't think the elimination of permadom was really the intended goal. I also don't really think permadom is the reason Dominations have proven unpopular. High IO slotting is still quite powerful, to any AT.

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The last prediction I made is that these changes won't have an overwhelming result on dominator popularity. I still stand behind that. They've been designed to be a solo AT now more than ever, but they are nowhere near the top of the solo list. Doms need to become a popular team AT to significantly increase numbers, these changes move them in the opposite direction.

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I don't believe Dominators could become a popular team AT in the way in which you wish unless their Secondary is changed into something else. Defenders have the same issue. Their role in a team is to deal supplemental damage. Many players, however, either do not want them to deal that damage, or want their role to be something else.

These Power changes don't really address the problem of a Dominator's role on a team, although it does make it more consistent. It is really more of a use in making all the Power Sets equally soloable.

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About this side-switching Going Rogue thing, last night I "accidentally" logged on with a Dark/Rad Corruptor I haven't touched for ages on the Test Server. After killing a few mobs, it suddenly hit me... how would a Blaster feel when they'd see me, a Dark/Rad Corruptor, enjoying a good ranged attack-set, plus a good defense/debuff set, being able to do good damage, greatly debuff my enemies and yet heal myself, not to mention being able to "crit" enemies more often as their life-bar depletes...?

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I think your perception is more that you are doing more damage than a Blaster than you actually are. Blasters have a 1.125 base damage modifier now, and have melee attacks as well. At best, you probably get to the equivalent of about 1.1 with Enervating Field and Accellerate Metabolism, and your bonus from Scourge is about the same as his from Defiance.

So unless he's hanging back and playing pure ranged, he probably has nothing to worry about. If he's a Blapper, then he's definately doing more damage. And the Defender is in pretty much the same boat you are, he has less damage, but he's able to boost his damage more than you can. He gets 30% more damage from EF, for instance, while you only get 22.5%.

Now, you will be able to do that damage considerably more safely than the Blaster will, which might lead the Blaster to wonder why he should go into melee -- increasing his risk even FURTHER -- just to match your damage. But that's really the difference, a Blaster is a high risk Archetype, while a Corruptor, as long as he takes the time to methodically lay down his debuffs, will be able to do fairly good damage as well, at much less risk.

I'll also add that this is a VERY old discussion. As is Brutes vs Scrappers vs Tankers, as is Stalkers vs Scrappers, as is Dominators vs Controllers vs Blasters. And we already have heroes and villains teaming together. So I'm guessing the problems are already well known.

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Ditzy...err...Southern Comfort said:

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For the record ,everything I predicted when these changes were in the speculation stage has come to fruition. Isn't my problem you arent astute enough to recognize that FACT.

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This was sent ot me in a PM, but now I'm ignored (yay me!) so I could not respond. Instead, I wanted to post it so everyone here could get a nice chuckle.

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Actually, this is 100% the truth. The blame for the changes is NOT Domination, as it was originally claimed and Southern seems to still be claiming, but indeed, the changes to the Energy and Psi Power Sets were as extreme as predicted.

I suppose if you don't care about Ice, Thorns, Electricity, or Fire (which needs some tweaks related to a totally different third issue) then yeah, this is a major change in Dominator playstyle.

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I would have preferred 4 seconds over 3, but I understand the reason for the change. Bump them to 4 seconds and give Psi Dart the 1 second animation and I'd say it's all good.

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I think 3 seconds is good for Psi Dart and Flares. It matches Thorns, so that's 3 Sets with 3 second recharge, and 3 Sets with 4 second recharge. And let's face it, going from 1.5 sec to 6 sec recharge was pretty extreme, even to make Psi do more single target damage. There is no way that wouldn't be instantly noticable to any current Psi player.

4 seconds probably would have made those who liked the new Psi Dart better happier. And it would have matched Blaster Psi Dart. But I think this is closer to splitting the difference. (And who knows, maybe Blasters will get the new Psi Dart too)