Jade_Dragon

Well, that pretty much invalidates the whole topic. VEAT's ARE "Epic". And uber.

I guess Widows and Crabs are built better for tanking than Banes and Fortunatas. Which I guess makes a lot of sense. Then again, as I said in Dwarf form I'm easily tanking groups that size. I certainly look forward to getting there with my Crab, she already got way better when she hit 20, and I just spec'ed into Stamina with my second build, to hurry things up. She's still finishing fights almost out of health, but at least she's finishing them and not having to retreat because my End has run out.

I don't know, though, most ATs seem to get that much better after 22. I'm not sure it's as much an EAT is a "tank mage" as he can do what a tank mage can do with a reasonable amount of risk.

It won't be. You need enough levels to have a large enough selection of powers to bring enough damage down on him, while having a variety of controls to keep him busy both in and out of PToD.

Just to say it, I was high level and had Singy to bounce the EB around. So no, I don't suppose I could have done it at 6 or 10. (Although an EB naturally at that level probably won't be as tough)

I do not list my villains in my signature because I have intentionally not changed it since CoH came out. I thought that it was obvious that with one of each type of hero AT, I was the sort of person who plays all ATs equally. That list is certainly not exhaustive, and I don't even list what level they are. I don't feel like coming back here and updating my signature constantly. (Heck, it's not even true what server they're on any more)

I have, as I said, played all ATs. I have two main Dominators, and have been quite clear about what they are and how that applies to my experience. I also have a number of alt Doms across a lot of servers. I rarely play only one character.

I will add that I have been criticised about this before, which is another reason I haven't changed it. If you need an example in my sig to prove I know what I'm talking about, you're not going to listen to me anyway.

Tell that to Lightning Storm. And Repulsion Bomb.

I think for the Defender the main attribute is supposed to be the knockback, not the damage. It's Traps, though, it's derived from Devices. It's been this way since CoV launch, it's not going to be changed now.

Actually, since they would be chosen like any other power, they would just use the slots that whatever other power you would have chosen would have used. The question is, where do you find slots for powers, when you have the Nova and Dwarf powers taking up so many.

In reference to the OP you replied to, though, I do kind of like this idea. In essense, instead of an Epic Pool you would have Powers that you could choose for your Dwarf or Nova form instead of your Human form. So you would in a sense be able to transfer one of those Human powers over to the Form. I definately think it would be a cool idea for Form specialists.

Maybe you could have a third Human Form pool with some of the ideas that I suggested, like Air Superiority. You couldn't access all three pools, though, so you'd have to choose which one you favored.

Well, you can try Earth Assault now and see. I would not mind hearing your impressions on it.

Maybe at high level, but in the early levels I've found Soldiers play very like Corruptors, while Widows are pretty much Claws Scrappers with a really early ranged attack. In fact, when it comes to melee, they are FAR more fragile than any meleer, even a Stalker. (And I honestly don't think that should change)

I must admit the mez protection is quite a relief in some ways. However, you shouldn't be encountering that much mez problem until the 30s, so it really isn't an issue early on.

Well, what Tanker, Defender or Blaster can transform back and forth between those three forms at will? I'm not saying SoA don't have capabilities that Corruptors, Doms, or Stalkers don't have, I'm just saying if you've played all three, there are no surprises waiting for you. If you've played a Corruptor, you'll be used to the idea of buffing yourself and your team, and laying down debuffs on the foes while you raze them with your machine gun. If you've played a Dominator, you'll be used to the idea of using ranged attacks and melee attacks at the same time, while being quite happy with the improved resiliance. If you've played a Stalker, you'll be ready for the stealth and Placate tactics that your Bane or Widow will use to make melee more survivable than I experienced as described above.

Granted I have yet to get my first Crab to 24, though it should be soon, but I have never seen anyone agree that the Kheldians or SoA are what are thought of as "Epic" Archetypes, the uber powerful ATs that let you own the content as your reward for getting to 50. They are in fact more of a challenge than the standard Archetypes, you are expected to use your knowledge that you gained getting to 50 to apply it to this new, somewhat unique playstyle.

That's what's meant by "Epic".

Now, if you want to correct me on that, let me know. I do know that SoA are overall considered stronger, while Kheldians take the greater skill and timing. Still, it seems as if you are playing a hybrid, not a tank mage. I'm not invulnerable to damage, I still have to Web Grenade my foes down and keep them out of melee if I want to do my best. Granted the damage is great. Coming from my Kheldians the damage really does seem great. But I'm not standing in the middle of a dozen foes pounding on them like I would with my Dwarf. Not yet anyway.

Yeah, there you go.

Well, I have the same confusion. I can't see how BOTH increasing the damage and End costs of an Assault Set AND decreasing the damage and End costs of an Assault Set are nerfs. Depending on who you ask, Elec and Energy are either much better, or horribly nerfed. Which makes me question either description.

OTOH, as you said, Energy did get a damage boost in Power Burst, which certainly helped it overall. (This damage boost did not cost any extra Endurance, or increase its recharge time) Electric is no slower than Electric Blast for its blast attacks, and is slower than Electric Melee for its melee. The only place it's actually faster is Thunder Strike, which really is still being left as the single target version, even though it's losing damage. I honestly think Thunder Strike should have been adjusted towards more AoE, but AoE was never a strength of Electric Assault before.

I personally wouldn't say Electric Assault has been buffed or nerfed. I don't really dislike the way it behaves now, but I don't think it's a major improvement either. Honestly the buff from Domination level damage has made a much greater difference.

I agree totally here. It certainly seems as if Ice, instead of being percieved as in need of a fix, was actually the standard the devs were aiming for. The slower recharge means more damage, but with the boost of new Domination, is the damage really needed? Of course, I still say the bigger problem is Flares and Combustion, and I think that greatly outweighs the recharge/damage ration. Again, Power Push and TK Thrust got a boost to damage and that helped their respective Power Sets, Flares and Combustion got a nerf to damage, maybe not a serious nerf, but certainly one that adds up, and that didn't help Fire. I think you are placing the blame for Fire's poor performance in the wrong place.

I think you're also making a mistake by trying to throw Domination at the problem and expecting it to fix it. You say yourself that Domination improves low recharge sets, like Energy was previously, and supposedly, Electric is now. Yet you're throwing Domination at a high recharge set, hoping it will solve your End problems, when in fact recharge only increases End problems. I think that you and anyone else who thinks that this is a solution are going to be disappointed when you don't get the expected results.

Has it occured to you that perhaps the reason the devs gave Earth such a large amount of control capability is as a reward for the additional effort that will be needed to perma-Dom it? Or that the reason Electric worked so well with high recharge is that it had built-in Endurance management tools, which the devs responded to by reducing the benefit it could get from recharge?

Tremor does the same damage as Whirling Hands. Which, again, is the same damage as other similar AoEs, although Whirling Mace does a little bit more. What Tremor has going for it, though, is that it's about twice the radius.

There appear to be two damage scale/recharge ratios when it comes to melee PBAoEs. There is the 1 DS, 14 second version that most of them are fairly close to, and then the 1.42 DS, 20 second version of Foot Stomp, Fire Sword Circle, and Frozen Aura. In each of their categories, Foot Stomp and Tremor are the only ones with 15 ft radius.

When I compared them, really what I was saying is that it isn't the damage, it's that radius. Fire Sword Circle and Frozen Aura are both as damaging as Foot Stomp (Fire is greater, actually, because of the DoT) but nobody ever mentions them. Partly because of the smaller radius, mainly because of Rage.

Well, IMHO Electric was made to be much slower and do much more damage than the average from the very start. It's a fact that Electric was given the Blaster version of the melee attacks, instead of the Brute/Tanker versions used by all other sets. This was commented on at the time. The result, though, is that while the set did a lot of damage, like the Blaster Secondary, when compared to other Dominator Secondaries it was very, very slow. When both Electric Melee and Electric Blast are fairly fast sets.

And if you look at Energy Assault, the attacks that were chosen are a bit strange as well. Instead of Barrage and Energy Punch, or even just Energy Punch, it got Bonesmasher and Total Focus, attacks that do a lot of damage, but which have long animation times. Total Focus isn't even different for the Blaster version, Bone Smasher does more damage and takes longer to recharge than the Tanker version, as is the standard for Blasters, but Total Focus does not.

Personally, I really feel that only the melee attacks needed to be adjusted. I don't know why Energy or Fire got their ranged attacks increased in damage and recharge, or why the most powerful attacks got that treatment. I can see why it was done for the Sniper blasts, they are considered useless anyway, and at least with more damage scale they will do as much damage as a Blaster's sniper. Energy even somehow wound up with a blast that does less damage than the Blaster version (Ice still has theirs) but I can see why in that particular case the damage needed to be boosted overall. Energy was stuck with very long animations, and thus had very low DPA.

Certainly I don't feel Fire needed to be adjusted, though, save possibly increasing Incinerate's damage and recharge time to fit the pattern, but Flares and Combustion most definately have gotten a rotten deal.

Now, with Earth Assault I kind of hope Fissure ends up with the nice treatment you're suggesting, after all, it will be one of the few ranged attacks, and one of the few AoEs. Assuming it's not overpoweringly damaging, and if it were that it would obviously have a long recharge, I think it should be fine.

And with both Dominators and Blasters getting a damage boost recently, I don't think that would be overpowered either. I am in complete agreement.

It is not the damage that attracts and most importantly holds Aggro, but the Threat rating, which is higher for Tankers than any other AT. Tankers in addition have Gauntlet, which as you said spreads the effect around, and their Taunt and taunt auras, which additionally build aggro and multiply the aggro that they have. The end result of this is that a Tanker appears to deal greater damage, from a standpoint of drawing aggro, than he actually does.

It could be argued that a Tanker would be better served with a Secondary that produces effects that tend to draw great amounts of aggro, such as knockback, debuffs, and soft holds. In any case, if it were not for Gauntlet, and the multiplying effect of the Threat rating, the Tanker would never be able to pull aggro off of a Blaster or Scrapper. As long as the damage role of the Tanker is secondary, by definition a Tanker should never be able to hold aggro by damage alone. He will never have as much as the so-called damage dealers.

Aggro, like Endurance Drain, is an on or off thing, either you are drawing enough aggro, or you are not. The amount of damage becomes irrelevant, if you aren't doing enough to hold aggro. On the other hand, the Taunt multiplier is relevant as long as you continue to apply it to even a moderate amount of damage.

Well, again, this is also true of Tankers. Not all Tankers have secondary effects in their powers that benefit their primary role. Some do, a Super Strength Tanker can do knockdown, which will draw additional aggro as I mentioned above. An Energy Melee Tanker can stun his foes, which will cause him to survive longer, as if he had more defense. But a Fire Melee Tanker has no secondary effect that he can use to increase his aggro holding abilities. The additional DoT is too minor to pull aggro off of a Scrapper or Blaster. It is only his Inherent, Gauntlet, that makes his attacks equally as useful to another Tanker with a different Secondary.

In effect, all Tankers have the same secondary effect on their attacks, Gauntlet. This is above and beyond the secondary effect associated with their Melee "theme".

Granted. But Gauntlet is an Inherent that benefits only the Primary role. Gauntlet does not in any way increase the Tanker's damage. In fact, it and Vigilance (and Domination, now) are the only Inherents that do not increase damage. Coincidentally (or perhaps not) those three Inherents are the ones associated with the only ATs that have damage dealing in their Secondary.

And Controllers, in fact, have an Inherent that benefits NEITHER their Primary, NOR their Secondary role. Their Inherent does not in any way increase their ability to control, or to support the team. (Unless you are one of those who consider Overpower part of the Inherent. It does not operate the same way as Containment, though, so it might be considered a second Inherent)

You clearly were not here before Gauntlet, when Tankers had to take Provoke from the Power Pool in order to be useful to the team, and were criticised when they did not act as a "taunt bot" and forgo their attacks for constant taunting.

Tankers do not have to have their damage boosted high enough to compete with Scrappers to make their damage side significant enough to compensate for having half thier powers be inapplicable to their primary role. In fact, if Tankers did not have a higher Threat rating, they WOULD have to have their damage boosted to be as high as Scrappers, so they could pull aggro off of them. It is a good thing that they don't have to.

The other counter to your argument is Dominators, who DID have their damage boosted, because half their powers were inapplicable to their primary role as crowd control. Positron explicitly stated that he was making Dominators "have two primary roles", with both control and damage dealing having equal weight. However, do Dominators, under the new system, do as much damage as Blasters? They have 5% more damage with their melee attacks, and 15.5% less damage with their ranged attacks. They also lack the ranged AoE and Tier 9 of a Blaster, and have single target holds that deal damage instead. So overall I think that while a Dominator might be able to "blap" as well as a Blaster, the Blaster still does more damage.

And a Dominator, like a Blaster, does not have a Primary (or Secondary, for a Corruptor) that has the potential to boost their damage. So the Dominator needs a very high base damage. A Defender does not have a very high base damage, and does not need a very high base damage in order to fulfill even a dual role, as a Dominator does, to deal damage.

This is true for Controllers and even Blasters as well. A Controller can't buff the team and hold foes at the same time. A Corruptor can't deal damage (his primary role, mind you) and support the team at the same time. A Mastermind can't direct his troops, use his own attacks, and use his Secondary at the same time. Or so people keep telling me. No, you can't do those things at the same time, obviously. There is always a need to keep choosing whether an offensive power or a defensive one is the right one to use at any given moment. On the other hand, I have never had any trouble laying down debuffs, buffing my allies, and using heal powers, while at the same time using blasts, control powers, or henchmen commands.

Most Buff/Debuff sets provide you with ample duration after each use to allow you to use other powers. Toggle powers, as you said, can be established, and as long you manage your Endurance wisely, can be used throughout the combat. Dropped and targetted debuffs can be fired into a group, to lay down a battle area, and then attacks can be fired into that same area. Yes, Defenders, Corruptors, and Controllers must take the time to prepare the combat, using their buff/debuff powers, and then engage in combat. This takes more time than a meleer, or a dedicated ranged fighter such as a Blaster or Dominator.

But it is not impossible.

Well, those who want to do both can play a Controller, because Controllers do plenty of damage, despite the fact that neither their primary role nor their secondary role is damage. But that is the issue, is the lack of popularity because people naturally dislike hybrids, and gravitate towards specialists? Or is it because the specialists are SO MUCH BETTER than the hybrid that there's no reason to even consider it in the first place?

Tanker secondary powers only help them fulfill their primary role because they have an Inherent that causes them to do that. If they were forced to draw aggro based on the damage they do (and had no Taunt) then they would be very crippled at their primary role.

Which is why I've said that Defenders need an Inherent that, while not reducing their ability to deal damage as a secondary role (similar to Tankers) also allows them to utilize their Primary better. Currently, Vigilance does not support this in any way.

Also I would argue that is not the Stormies that there is the concern about becoming overpowered with a damage boost, but the Rads. (possibly Rad/Sonics) However, except for the difference in buff/debuff strength, there would be no difference between a Defender with a 75% damage base, and a Corruptor, currently with a 75% damage base. Either would perform the same in comparison to a Blaster, at least until debuffs began to be applied. And quite frankly, I think most Blasters have NOTHING to be concerned about in regards to the damage level of a Corruptor. At best, a Corruptor may be able to beat a Blaster in ranged and AoE damage for short periods of time after his debuffs have had time to stack. He will never be able to beat the Blaster in melee damage, and the Blaster will likely have done enough burst damage to finish off the foes before the Corruptor can even get started.

It is not Blasters that need to fear a Defender damage boost, it is Corruptors.