Jade_Dragon
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Quote:If you have reason to suspect that the mercenary that you're hiring to pull a job will instead rat you out to the Paragon City authorities, would you hire him?Originally Posted by UberGuy
Let's look at this from a roleplaying standpoint for a moment. If you're playing a vigilante, why would most of the rogue isles contacts even care? A huge number of them are hiring mercenaries, and a huge number of arcs are villain-on-villain violence. A contact hires a vigilante to wipe out an Arachnos base or a cell of Malta? Rock on?
Even villains have to prove their worth to a Mobster before they'll be trusted with the sensitive jobs. (Mainly, by getting themselves in so deep they'll be going to prison too, if they turn on you)
Maybe not for the average save the city storyline, but would you send Doctor Doom to fetch back the Talisman of Ultimate Evil, trusting that "Oh, he's reformed now, he doesn't do that any more"?Quote:On the flip side, are most Paragon contacts going to care if the person who wanders up to them is more of a dark night (not in the Batman sense) if they need someone to stop the Vahz from poisoning the city, or the Rikti from reinvading? Anyone with a "Rogue" designation presumably has completed enough sensitivity training to have a reputation for saving lives or performing other good deeds at least some of the time. I think only the most morally uptight of contacts would object to their help in a crisis.
Since we have absolutely no idea how the system works, it's a bit early to decide that that's NOT how it works. Maybe the Vigilante will be excluded from certain missions that that Contact would otherwise give out, but why not? Does it have to be all or nothing, either you are allowed to take every single mission in the game, no strings attached, or it's not worth it?Quote:A reasonable question in this is how do you get introduced to these contacts. But we actually already have a mechanism for that - police scanners and RI newspapers. If a Rogue runs around answering police S.O.S. calls, or a Vigilante runs around taking contracts from RI brokers, the contacts in that zone would hear about it and have a chance to decide this person is someone up their ally. -
Quote:Here. Some of this is speculation, or at least a particular interpretation of the HeroCon info, but for the most part it seems on target. It's also been corrected to reflect Posi's clarifications.Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Where did you get that last point from? It doesn't look like it's in Posi's frist clarification point.
Except that we have not been told that a Hero or Villain will have to go through side shifting or reach some given level to access Praetoria. Heroes and Villains will apparently be able to access Praetoria without having to side shift. Therefore, it is consistent to assume that Praetorians will be able to access Paragon City or the Rogue Isles, even if by that choice they end up shutting themselves out of the other choice.Quote:My gut however is telling me that you won't be able to make a lvl 1 brute appear in Paragon City or a lvl 1 hero appear in the Rogue Isles, simply because it takes some amount of content to finally shift your "morality meter" to the appropriate faction. The devs have been saying choosing/switching to a side won't be a quick thing. Being able to do that with the Praetorian work around wouldn't make sense with those statements.
The "morality meter" is for EXISTING characters, who have already been levelling in Paragon City or the Rogue Isles for some time, and have achieved a given level on that side. Praetorians are new characters, of either side's AT, which can choose their "morality" right from the beginning, although at first that's apparently limited to only siding with the Loyalists or with the Resistance. Why have Praetoria as a start area at all, when they have to go through exactly the same process as a Villain starting in the Rogue Isles and coming over to Paragon City. I would think the better concept would be for Praetorians to start "halfway", already being Rogues or Vigilantes so they don't have as far to "shift" as a "true" Hero or Villain.
Of course, it doesn't look like it works exactly like that, but still, I would expect Praetorians to be able to go to Primal Earth about the time Heroes and Villains can go to Praetoria. Keep in mind that a level 1 Brute is NOT a level 1 VILLAIN. If a Praetorian chooses to be a Hero then he is a Hero, even with a Brute, Stalker, Mastermind, Dominator or Corruptor. It may take a little extra time, but that doesn't mean it has to take as much time as starting from a Villain. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
That's . . . not how I understood it.
This bullet point: This system is usable by any character over X level (X is a number which has yet to be disclosed). It is not "just for Praetorians".- Praetorians do not use the normal GR system, but have points within their stories where they can choose "Loyalist (aka Villain)" or "Resistance (aka Hero)"
- When Praetorians leave Praetoria for Primal Earth, they choose if they want to be considered a Hero or a Villain, and are plopped into Paragon or the Rogue Isles.
And (from "Post Going Rogue Info Here" thread) - Once they reach level 20 (or before?), they can choose to go to Paragon City and be a Hero, or go to the Rogue Isles and be a villain, even if they chose to side with the opposite faction in Praetoria (my bolded point)
This seems to suggest that Loyalists/Resistance is NOT Vigilantes/Rogues. It's a totally different and independent system which is, yes, unique to Praetorians. Posi says in the first bullet that Praetorians don't use the usual side shifting mechanism. Whether he means they don't use it at first, or don't use it until they leave Praetoria and become a Hero or Villain isn't clear. But until they do, they already are neither a Hero nor a Villain, they are already in the grey area. All the normal system would do is force them to choose a side, and then work to get back to the neutral state again.
Actually, I look at the Loyalist/Resistance storylines as being more like Origins. It determines which Contacts a Preatorian gets and what missions he is assigned. But he can keep switching sides as much as he want, which will probably effect his path through the missions. Either way, though, he's still a Praetorian, he doesn't become either a Hero or Villain until he decides to do that by going beyond his home missions and Contacts. -
Quote:Well, it says that Praetorians start out neither Heroes nor Villains, but at some point they decide to go to Primal Earth, and apparently THEN they can choose a side. So it really depends on how long this takes. If you can skip the tutorial and walk through a portal at level 1 into Atlas Park, then yes, you can create a Brute as a Hero from level 1. You just have to do a little travelling.Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Correct if I'm wrong but no where does it say you can start as a pure lvl 1 villain or hero in Preatoria. Pure as in I can access the rogue isles or paragon from lvl 1.
On the other hand, there is some question as to what the devs mean by "choose if [you] want to be considered a Hero or Villain". We don't know for sure that a Praetorian who walks into Paragon City is EXACTLY like a pure Hero, accessing Wentworths and getting missions from one of the five departments in City Hall. If Praetorians have to wait for level 10 or 20 before they can enter Paragon City, they might be like Villiains who have switched over and become Heroes, having to pick up with a new set of Contacts somehow.
Likewise, we don't really know how Loyalists and Resistance fit into this. Positron called the Loyalists the villains and Resistance the heroes, but supposedly this is independent of which side you can choose outside of Preatoria. So does it effect which Market you use? I noticed in the video it said that you choose Loyalist or Resistance before you even leave the tutorial, so apparently it is impossible to not have a "side". Yet, it says here there are "points within their stories" where you can switch sides, so apparently you can keep switching between the Resistance and Praetorian Guard as often as you like. -
Quote:It also makes the process more time consuming and tedious, as well, as those who want to dump the Villain content and be heroes must actually go through Rogue to Hero, and then back to Vigilante if they still want to team with their former Villain allies in the Rogue Isles.Originally Posted by Grouchybeast
I don't see how else they can keep any meaning to 'hero' and 'villain', though. If rogue/vigilante effectively opened up access to the whole game, then from a gameplay perspective there'd be no reason to be anything else, unless you have absolutely zero interest in experiencing the content on one side.
I believe the idea is not that you can "flip some switch", to quote the devs, and then access all the content in the game. This is meant to be a way in which you can access the content that was previously unique to the other side. But you may have to give up your access to the original content until such time as you progress around the circle again. In other words, you can access all of the content with one character, but not at any one given time.
I do agree, though, that there will likely be something for Vigilantes to do in the Rogue Isles if they can't find a team. Newspaper missions might be open, and there are some Contacts unlocked by Badges that might be accessible in some way. (Vigilantes probably still retain the Hero badges, but their version of a badge might unlock the Contact) On the hero side, I'm guessing the revamped Zones with their own Contact trees could be open to Rogues.
There could also be Vigilante side switching content that actually is accessed through Contacts in the Rogue Isles. After all, they're possibly working their way towards being there permanently. -
Quote:This thread isn't about the questions that are answered in those videos. It is for those questions that are NOT answered in those videos. Including the clarifications in the first post, as the videos were not even clear on whether a Hero, once he becomes as Vigilante, can continue to become a Villain.Originally Posted by Gibbering Loony
Instead of asking questions already been answered :P
I direct you to these three videos
Enjoy!
You are welcome to point out the part in the video where they talk about what happens to your SG membership when you switch sides, though, if you happen to have spotted that.
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Quote:I could not agree more with this.Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I think we can all agree that regardless of the quality of the graphics, a game has to have moving hair to be properly successful.
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Quote:The precise quote was "may be awarded with additional perks". What those perks are is currently speculation, however badges or "pure" Hero/Villain only missions are a possibility.Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Interesting. I must have missed that. Let's hope that's new content and not just re-labelled old content. Then again, perhaps that's why the old arcs were re-labelled hero or villain? Food for thought...
It also hasn't been specifically stated if a Villain that travels all the way around the half circle to Hero is awarded those perks since he is no longer a Rogue/Vigilante. I would say that at least some options will be unique to Heroes and Villains, though, since they do not get access to all three zones like Vigilantes and Rogues.
Wild speculation: I think Epic and Patron pools MIGHT be one of those "perks". Preatoria may introduce a third set of options.
I've also noticed the missions marked "Hero" and "Villain". It may be that those missions exclude Vigilantes and Rogues, or for instance "Hero" missions exclude Rogues. It may also be that a Vigilante or Rogue doing a Hero mission will gain Hero alignment, and this is how the side shifting process works. If not, then maybe doing regular blue side missions and Hero themed missions in Preatoria earns you Hero alignment. -
Quote:In fact, Recluse believes in the "survival of the fittest", in that anyone with the strength should be allowed to subjugate others to their will. Even Recluse himself, if you've got the power and the guts to do it. Cole, on the other hand, believes in a Utopian society where the common people are protected from harm and violence. But they are also self destructive and violent, so they have to be controlled like mindless sheep.Originally Posted by Tabik
Praetoria is ruled by a despot who forces the citizenry to live as he sees fit, because it will keep them safe, but adversely robbing them of their free will. The Rogue Isles, on the other hand, are the exact antithesis of that principle, representing essentially a dictatorial anarchy. You have a certain degree of freedom, so long as you don't cross Recluse.
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Quote:I suspect this is the reason Epics aren't available for starting choices in Praetoria. The Praetorian Epic likewise would not be createable in Paragon City or the Rogue Isles.Originally Posted by UberGuy
A reasonable-ish long-term consolation prize would be if Praetoria got it's own epic ATs.
This doesn't say your Kheldian or SoA can't GO to Praetoria, or even switch sides and access the formerly locked areas. Just that they wouldn't be from Praetoria, only Primal Earth.
And besides, from what is being said, it doesn't look like Preatorians have access to all three zones either. So even if you COULD create a Kheldian there, it would still take time to access the Rogue Isles anyway. Even longer to access both the Rogue Isles and Paragon City. -
Quote:And, presumably, join in applicable missions with a Villain, even though he can't enter the Rogue Isles. In that sense it would be much the same as the RWZ.Originally Posted by Photonstorm
Doing missions in Praetoria does not automatically set you to a path of side switching. A hero can go to Praetoria and make only the good choices and remain a Hero.
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Quote:Actually, that's kind of my point. It makes a lot more sense for there to be a portal from Atlas Park to the start area of Preatoria than for there to be a portal from Atlas Park to a zone that starts out at level 35 and has level 50 raid content.Originally Posted by WoefulKnight
<QR>
Please for the love of all that is holy DO NOT PUT THE PORTAL TO PRAETORIA IN ATLAS PARK!!!
That is all.
It might still be that the three start areas are seperate, though, and only after 20 are the groups able to mix. -
My question is as follows:
We all know that Preatorians will choose to join the Loyalists or Resistance, and must choose to leave Preatoria for their first visit to Prime Earth some time before level 20. And side switching is supposedly only to be available after level "X", where "X" is a number which has not been revealed. But which it is logical and consistent to guess is the same as the Preatorian number, 20.
Heroes are able to travel freely between Paragon City and Preatoria, however, just as Villains have access to the Rogue Isles and Preatoria. And there will be a new player base of lowbies in Preatoria, levelling to 20. While it is certainly easy and quick to level to 20, I assume that it is not the intention of the devs that they level through this content SOLO. And if they are limited to only being able to team with those who, like them, are beginning a new character in the Preatorian zones, then this will limit the possibilities for teaming. High level Vigilantes and Rogues doing the side switching missions could certainly exemplar down to help the newbies, which would add to the pool as well, but most of them will probably be busy with their own side switching missions.
So my question is, given that it will likely be level 20 before a Hero can go over to the Rogue Isles and participate in Villain teams, what is the earliest level that a Hero can go over to the Preatorian zones? Level 1? Level 10? Level 20?
This would likely be connected to the lowest level at which a Preatorian can leave his start areas and enter Prime Earth for the first time. Which is certainly not going to preclude him going back to Praetoria and helping other newbies level, even as he joins in Hero or Villain teams in whatever side he has chosen there.
It's my theory that simply doing missions in the Preatorian zones will progress you along the path of side switching, so there might be an incentive to help Preatorians do their missions that way. Conversely, doing Hero or Villain missions take you out towards the "ends" of the alignments. There won't be any simple arc or Task Force you can take, although I'm sure you'll be able to grind it like folks do Newspaper missions. -
Quote:So in essense if I want to create a Villain AT as a Hero, I can create him in Preatoria, then choose to take him to Paragon City. I cannot create a Villain AT as neutral, however, neither a hero nor a villain, and I have to choose one side and then go back towards the grey.Originally Posted by Photonstorm
Yeah, Orion Star is making a good job with that post, and updating it with new information.
Do Preatorians use the normal GR system when not on Preatorian Earth, and their own Loyalist/Resistance factions at home? -
Quote:So the statement that Praetorians can access all three areas was incorrect? I see that this post has been edited.Originally Posted by Photonstorm
A Praetorian doesn't have access to the three areas.
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Quote:I would not go so far as to characterize whether or not you are a hero or a villain based on what Market you can access. It sounds to me like this is a mechanism introduced artificially on top of the alignment system to continue to keep the two Markets separate. At least for a while.Originally Posted by White Hot Flash
Rogues and Vigilantes aren't technically neutrals, either. If you were totally neutral, you'd be able to access both markets (or neither). Think of them as "hero-in-training" instead of Rogue, and "villain-in-training" instead of Vigilante.
The primary division seems to be the one that is common to Rogues, Vigilantes and Preatorians, that they have access to all three areas, as distinguished from those who can only access Praetoria and Paragon City, or only Praetoria and the Rogue Isles. The question is, when a Preatorian goes to either Paragon City or the Rogue Isles, is that decision a permanent choice, until changed by the alignment system, or can the Praetorian continue to enter all three zones?
Do Praetorians use the normal GR system once they leave Preatoria for Primal Earth, or do they remain independents?Quote:- Praetorians do not use the normal GR system, but have points within their stories where they can choose "Loyalist (aka Villain)" or "Resistance (aka Hero)"
- When Praetorians leave Praetoria for Primal Earth, they choose if they want to be considered a Hero or a Villain, and are plopped into Paragon or the Rogue Isles.
This again seems to support that they can choose to be either a Hero or Villain, but it has nothing to do with which side they join in the "middle". Is this a one time thing, or can they go back and forth? Are they "considered" a Hero or Villain, or are they "really" a Hero or Villain?Quote:- Once they reach level 20 (or before?), they can choose to go to Paragon City and be a Hero, or go to the Rogue Isles and be a villain, even if they chose to side with the opposite faction in Praetoria.
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Quote:White Hot Flash (and Photonstorm) said that you would become either a Hero or a Villain, not a Vigilante or a Rogue. Positron also seems to be saying this when he says "[Praetorians] choose if they want to be a Hero or Villain". And if there is no Praetorian content after 20, that seems to suggest Praetorians MUST leave Praetoria for Primal Earth at some point.Originally Posted by FreckledAvenger
Not quite. The progression would go Praetorian->Rogue/Vigilante->Villain/Hero. And the devs made it clear that no step of the process would be able to be "by accident", but that you would be able to make the clear choice of either transitioning completely or staying on your current path.
Granted, I'm aware there are many people saying things in this thread which have little or no redname confirmation. Still, that's what this thread is about, clarification. If this is still an unknown, then we need to know that this is an unknown, instead of speculating wildly. -
Quote:So there is no option to remain Neutral? You MUST, at some point, choose to be a Hero or Villain and then shift back to Neutral if that's what you want?Originally Posted by Photonstorm
1) Lets say you make a Praetorian character and you decide to be a hero. Then you operate like a Hero, you go to Paragon City. From there, you can stay hero, or go vigilante, or completely shift to villain.
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Quote:1) And if you pick Hero, you are locked out of the Rogue Isles?Originally Posted by White Hot Flash
Once a Praetorian chooses a side to go to at lvl 20, they become either a Hero or Villain. If you picked Hero, you'd have to do the same content as a "born in Paragon" hero if you wanted to go visit the Rogue Isles later.
2) It is impossible for a Preatorian to go to either Paragon City or the Rogue Isles prior to level 20? -
Quote:I may be misinterpreting this, but it seems like Heroes and Vigilantes will have Paragon City contacts, and Villains and Rogues will have Rogue Isles contacts. Preatorians will have their own contacts until level 20, then they may either have contacts within their faction, or travel to either Paragon City or the Rogue Isles to get more contacts.Originally Posted by Chris_Zuercher
Or...will some mission contacts be available, and some not?
Or, will Preatorians have access to Hero AND Villain contacts from the start? (i.e., deciding to become a "Hero" or "Villain" when going to Primal Earth. Or is that a one-time deal. Preatorians run through Outbreak or Breakout when they leave Preatorian Earth for the first time? Am I reading too much into this here?) -
Quote:And it looks like, although this could be clarified, that the Preatorian Brute WOULD still have access to the Rogue Isles, even if he never chose to go there. Unlike a Villain who went Hero, he would not be cut off from one of the three areas.Originally Posted by FreckledAvenger
You could not, however, create a hero brute that would start in Paragon without ever going to Praetoria.
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Quote:I think this is the big question. (And possibly one the devs aren't even sure about the answer to either) Do the Preatorians get a third market? Do they have access to both? Does it depend on their alignment? (Loyalists access the Black Market and Resistance Wentworths? With maybe random which one you can access when you start?)Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Followup question: What market will Praetorians use when they are starting the game in Praetoria for 20 levels?
Preatorians seem to be able to move freely between all three worlds no matter what, so their becoming a "Hero" or "Villain" may refer only to what missions they can access. This makes me wonder about something, though, it says Preatorians can "choose" which they want to be and it dumps them in the given world. Does that mean the portals that connects the worlds all connect to both Paragon City and the Rogue Isles? Or are the portals in separate places? (Like Pocket D and RWZ) It seems like it would be the other way around, the Preatorian would choose the Paragon City gate, and it would make him a Hero when he passed through.
I think we're also interested in who can trade with who. Can Vigilantes give Inspirations to Rogues and Preatorians? Can heroes trade with Vigilantes? (Since they share the same Market) What about Preatorians? -
Quote:Originally Posted by NuclearToast
I don't know if they can enter PVP zones from either side, but the devs at HeroCon were pretty consistently specific. You're a hero, even when you're a vigilante, until you're a villain; you're a villain, even when you're a rogue, until you're a hero. Do the math.
--NT
What's a Preatorian, hero or villain? Will they get a third entrance? -
Well, there are quite a few missions blue side that are labeled "Hero", and quite a few labelled "Villain". More tellingly, there are missions that are NOT. So I'm guessing that the limitation will be that the "Hero" missions are mainly for Heroes, and Villains will be excluded.
Where "neutrals" fit in depends on a couple of things. If it's as an earlier poster described it, and Vigilante/Preatorian/Rogue are all the same thing, then probably they will be excluded from Hero/Villain missions. You will have to be either a "pure" Hero, or a Villain that has side switched all the way to the Hero side to get into those missions.
If Vigilante/Preatorian/Rogue is a scale of "greyness", and you work your way across it through arcs to change your alignment, then I would guess Vigilantes will get access to the Hero missions, and Rogues to the Villain, but Preatorians don't get either. They may have "Neutral" missions that are either unique to them, or are tied to the Vigilantes/Rogues moving themselves more towards the center.
I like the latter idea better because it will take you more time to get from one side to the other, and there are more combinational possiblities (like you can go to the blue side and do Hero missions, but red side Villain missions are locked to you) but if Neutral is Neutral no matter what it is called, that's still okay too. -
My three mains, Jade Dragon, Blue Diamond, and Genie Gold, will probably stay as Heroes. They may go Vigilante if it will help to access the Rogue Isles for teaming, but more likely they're just stay where they are. Any of the three of them might end up going a bit more grey just out of mission choices though (if that's how it's handled) as Jade Dragon is somewhat pragmatic, and Blue Diamond tends to have trouble with his temper. Genie Gold is the most "good" and even timid of the group, she doesn't like to hurt people, and prefers to support the team instead of getting involved directly.
I have an "evil" Brute version of Blue Diamond, however, who went rogue after his version of Jade Dragon was killed by their rival, Silver Bolt. He will probably reform, going back to the hero side. He has an ally who is a Ninjas Mastermind, a private detective who went undercover to help him, and she'll be returning to Paragon City with him as well. As for Silver Bolt, I have at least one Blaster version of him that I will turn evil. (Actually, reveal his true nature, as his backstory was that he went undercover working for Hero Corps so he could scout out what he foes were doing) I will probably make all versions of him a Rogue so he can participate in Paragon City missions. (And I will definately recreate the Dominator version as a Electric/Electric instead of Grav/Electric)
Bloodwolf will most definately go Neutral, and spend his time shifting between Vigilante and Rogue. He's essentially good, but he distrusts "heroes" and believes that their power corrupts them no matter how good they are. He will oppose them if he has to, which makes him more than just a Vigilante who believes "the end justifies the means". In the Preatorian universe, though, he would definately oppose Cole.
Bloodwolf has a Stalker version that will also move to the center. I may create a Neutral version of him to start with, if Staves or Ninjitsu for Scrappers ever comes to be.
Sandy is caught in a conflict between her desire to do good, and her robotic half's need for combat. However, she would never reliquish her control, so probably even going Vigilante is out of the question for her. It would be too much of a risk.
Joe Everyman doesn't care about the Rogue Isles. He's a Paragon City citizen, and his beat is its streets. A Preatorian Joe Everyman might be interesting, though.
Alan Midnight and his AI partner Rachel will definately go Vigilante for character, as Alan especially doesn't hesitate to kill when needed to get the job done. They will remain on the good side, though, as they're private detectives upholding their own view of the law, and will stay in their blue side SG.
I will be recreating my Brute werewolf wrestler Loopy Loup Garou as a Neutral. He will probably stay in the Vigilante/Rogue grey area, like Bloodwolf, as he has the outward personality of a Heel, but he's really a good guy. He's been framed for a crime he didn't commit, though, so he may have to clear his name before he can become a Vigilante. His partner is his female counterpart, Lady Loup Garou, and I will make her a Scrapper, but also Neutral. I'll create them in a levelling pact, as the earlier versions were created before I had that capability. (The current versions are EM/WP, but they will both be recreated as Claws/WP)
I plan to shift one of my Warshades to the evil side if that's possible. I was hoping to be able to create a Nictus as a Neutral, but I can shift one of my current ones easily enough. His concept will totally change, he will be a Warshade that merges with a gang punk in Paragon City, and between the human's villainy and his own Nictus nature he decides that going Warshade and trying for peace was a stupid idea after all.
The rest of my villains will be staying villainous, and most of my low level heroes probably won't be changing either. I think the main switches I am interested in is taking the Warshade to the redside, my Mastermind blue side, and the two Brutes Blue Diamond and Loopy.