Jade_Dragon

Only you could post that dog, Bill.

(BTW, in case you didn't know, I was being sarcastic )

Well, first of all, slotting it well and having it up often, and using it often, is a good start.

IMHO, the main thing to realize is that Taunt is an aggro multiplier. It's not really as powerful on its own as it is when stacked with other sources of aggro. So attack, drop debuffs on foes, control and knock them around. Hit Bosses in preference to minions (that will aggro their minions automatically) and possibly Lts as well. (I don't know if they give less aggro to surrounding minions than a Boss, or none at all. Then again, aggroing one foe in a spawn will usually give minor aggro to others in a spawn, so there's no harm in hitting a Lt. that is in a spawn with a minion)

With Dark's debuffs you should be capable of drawing plenty of aggro, so just add Provoke to your usual procedure to lay down your debuffs, putting it before everything else. For instance, I'd probably go with Provoke, then Tar Patch, then anchor Darkest Night on the toughest foe in the patch.

Another important point is that if you want to HOLD aggro, you should always act first. It's harder to pull aggro off a teammate than it is for you to pull it off of him. So if you're going to tank you should act like a tank, go in first and make the first move. This applies to both your teammates and your henchmen.

I still like saying that Accuracy was un-nerfed (negative nerfed?) when they added the Accuracy bonus to lower level players.

That's good, that means it may be somewhat easier that trying to kludge together my weapon idea.

Honestly, I think if we could customize PART of the form, even if we couldn't customize ALL of it, it would be a big step forward. So I can't change the color of my Nova from bright blue? But can I put a whirling eddy in the middle of him that is gold? I'd go for that...

Heh. I like unusual tanks. Amusingly enough, for the longest time I had only ONE Tanker, a no-neck type named Blue Diamond. However, for all his muscle and compact build, he's only about 5 feet tall. He's a foul-tempered, grouchy, obstinate jerk, who insists that no one is ever going to beat him. Probably has an inferiority complex. But he's all about being loud and obnoxious and the center of attention to the point where he pretty much exemplified the Tanker for me.

He was never more than an off-tank, though. Because I built him for offense he wasn't really able to tank for a team the way a more dedicated Tanker could. But taunting was inherent to his concept, so he could HOLD the aggro, he just couldn't always take it. (Actually, he would so often come within an instant of death and then not die that I had a teammate comment on it. That was back when Invincibility was far stronger than it is now, though)

I've got two more Tankers now, though, which were offshoots of the same concept. One is Dark/Dual Blades, and is something more like a thief or a druid than the no-neck type. He has a couple of ferrets (who do all the "taunting" for him by running up his foes' legs) and sneaks around under cloak before popping out to grab aggro.

My other Tanker is a Stone/Axe, who was originally the nature druid concept. But now he's a more traditional stoner, doing the tanking for the team thing. He's not built that way, though, he's tall and kind of gangly (not as much as the druid used to be) and more a cunning type of fighter than just brute force.

I honestly don't see the issue, I haven't had trouble with damage since, say around Issue 3, and I solo constantly. It's just a matter of picking attacks and slotting them reasonably. And honestly, knowing that you can wade into ANYTHING and end up being the last thing standing is pretty nice. I wouldn't say my Stone can do as much damage as my Inv/SS, and I wouldn't say that he's got as much control and utility as my Dark, but that's just the difference between sets.

This was actually the way Super Strength was designed back in Beta. Extremely high damage, slow recharge attacks. KO Blow is still like that. The players complained about standing around for long periods of time waiting on the punches to recharge, though. It did not seem realistic that a PUNCH, the simplest form of attack there is, would be so slow and require such a wait in between. Thus, the attack rate was increased, and damage was reduced, and you have SS as it stands now.

Honestly, back in the day, Tanker sets were mostly designed like that. Stone Melee, Fire Melee, Axe and Mace, they all have powerful attacks with long recharges. Scrappers got the faster attack sets, Claws, Spines, they were intended to hit more often, but do less damage. But, Broadsword was an exception, and eventually Martial Arts (it started out really low damage but had its animation times decreased) and with Proliferation Tankers have been getting faster sets and Scrappers the slower ones.

The thing is, even if you gave Tankers a +100% boost to damage and a 100% increase in recharge, it still wouldn't do the job because recharge is not important in this game, animation time is. What the devs SHOULD have done is given Tankers attacks that do a lot of damage, but take twice as long to animate. Then the Tankers would not be standing around doing nothing, they would be attacking, but their attacks would be slower and more ponderous than a Scrapper. It's too late for that now, and with Proliferation you couldn't design a set that way anyway, just for a single AT.

Lowering To Hit or raising End cost wouldn't be a viable solution either. Both of those limitations can be overcome with the right build. You would just end up with Tankers doing twice as much damage as Scrappers, while being just as resiliant as they are now.

Um, you do know that Tankers do MORE damage than a Brute with no Fury, right?

Technically speaking what you are saying is that you want "textures" not "models".

I knew what you meant, but just being clear.

And I do think in some cases minor variations on the models may be needed to add some of the things we would like. Shoulder pads, for instance, or capes are additional "accessories" which are added to the base model. It's very likely that such could not be allowed for costume overrides, like Kheldian forms or Granite Armor, and so if you wanted to add such things, like different horns, the model itself might have to vary and not just the skin.

That's a way different thing from the model being totally different, though, which I think is what Memphis_Bill was arguing against. Say, adding a Jellyfish form in addition to Squid and Lobster. (That would really imply a form with whole new powers, which would be asking for far too much)

Although I did suggest in the past adding some sort of accessory using the weapon technology, just basically adding a weapon that the Nova/Dwarf would "draw" when going into the form. So you could, say, add a horn, or a glowing core in the center of the form, or a variant of an arm or tentacle. This might be similar to BaB's suggestion that he change the Granite Armor to be "rock bits" that were attached to your character's body, which would then be rendered invisible so it would look like he turned into rock. The same tech presumably could be applied to make a Kheldian have customizable forms. The forms would just become "attachments" to each body part and limb instead of a costume change.

Then again, I don't know if BaB ever succeeded at this, or it was abandoned because a lot of players seemed opposed to such a drastic, non-reversable change.

(Personally, I have not gotten my Stone Tank to 32 yet, so I can't check this, but does anyone know whether if you have Rooted running in Granite form, the "boots" still appear around your feet? Because if they do, this would be exactly what I am suggesting)

I think the bigger issue is that there is a greater divide amongst players of Defenders than of any other Archetype. Defenders cover a lot more territory than the other ATs. You have the "pure healer", you have the mage-like offensive debuffer, you have the mix of control and damage/debuffing, you have the psuedo-pet user, and the tank mage combo of Ranged and Defense. All of these fall under the guise of various Buff/Debuff power sets. Scrappers, by contrast, may fit into numerous categories, but they for the most part fall into the same combination of melee offense and personal defense.

The split of the buffer/debuffs into Defender, Controllers, Corruptors and Masterminds was meant, to an extent, to address this, I think. But these AT share fewer Power Set types than Scrappers, Tankers, Brutes and Stalkers. The latter can differentiate their role through Inherents, but it is more up to the former to specialize with their non-Buff/Debuff capability.

I think perhaps Buff/Debuff was made TOO varied. It is both buff and debuff, plus control, aggro management, and pet use as well. Often it seems like a catch-all, utility grouping. There is no commonality, unlike Melee, Ranged, Control and the hybrid sets of Summon, Manipulation and Assault, which are pretty much built around the same structure.

OTOH, Defense can be equally as varied as Buff/Debuff. And Buff/Debuff is, as I used to say a long time ago, very much a sort of ranged version of Defense. You can cast protection not only on yourself, but also on others, or reach out and weaken your foes.

I don't know if that's a valid comparison. Kheldians in Human form have a 0.80 damage scale with ranged attacks and 0.85 with melee. A Defender's damage scale is only 0.65. Compared to that, a Corruptor or Tanker would be a more viable comparison, and the PB will be doing more damage in melee, like the Tanker. (Even more than the Tanker, in fact)

On the other hand, Defenders and Corruptors can boost their damage with buffs and debuffs, so it's not really fair to compare them one on one by damage scale like that. When you factor in the buffs and debuffs of a Defender set like Rad, then Kheldians do have about that level of damage. But they are more oriented around self buffs like Build Up instead of debuffing foes.

It took me a while to realize this, but Kheldians are NOT Defenders. They are damage dealers, which deal more damage and survive better on teams. With the glaring exception of Glowing Touch, a Peacebringer's powers are about damage dealing and tanking, NOT team support.

You're not going to get as much damage out of Human form as you would out of a Blaster, but then that's the Nova's job. A PB Human form is really more like a low damage Scrapper with ranged attacks. Or a Dominator that trades in some damage for sheilds and healing.

Well, the forms are not of the Kheldians themselves, but the past, presumably material races they inhabited. Granted, in that they are "shadows" of those material forms. Still, I would expect the individual to try to form a shape that is as close to the body he became previously comfortable with as possible, instead of some generic form.

If we were playing actual Kheldians, though, we'd be little balls of floating fluffy light.

Eh, if you mean "model" in the same sense as our Male, Female and Huge, then yeah. I don't think there needs to be multiple models for the Kheldian forms. (While female Novas and Dwarfs would be amusing, I don't think they're NECESSARY )

We have the option to pick variations of various body parts, though. We can choose mechanical arms, wings, horns of various types coming out of our heads, decorations and attachments to our shoulders, wrists and lower legs. And that doesn't even count clothing.

Even if we assume these extra-planetary beings that the Kheldians inhabited in the past had no concept of clothing, I would expect them to have individual features that differentiated them. Just normal random genetic variation would introduce some differences, even if they didn't use visual cues to determine identity, and used smell or hearing or some alien sense instead.

Since it's not likely that we would ever have that fine a control over either shapeshifting forms or the appearance of our pets or henchmen, I would say, yeah, you want different models, only with very slight variations. A Dwarf with larger or arms or different horns, for instance, or a Nova with different numbers and lengths of tentacles.

I personally would like the Dual Pistols combo with some martial arts kicks. That would have more range and do more AoE damage than throwing stars. (Even the exploding kind! )

Personally, I think the Assault Rifle is too bulky, if Riot Control uses grenades and gadgets like that, I personally wouldn't want that. However, if the Super Soaker fired things like a glue spray or tear gas, that might overlap with an Assault Rifle Secondary...

Likewise, a Control form of Trick Arrow for use with a Bow Secondary. But now we're starting to get into multiple options that I think would take too long to implement. I'd start with just the basics, something you would expect a PPD cop or SWAT officer to carry.

I'm not twisting words around, I'm pointing out that Plant Control, Electric Melee, and Dark Miasma were at one time unique AND NOW THEY AREN'T ANY MORE. Ice Armor is still unique, but Hibernate is not (plenty of ATs get access to Hibernate) and there is nothing inherently special about Ice Armor that suggests that it will STAY unique.

If you're not arguing that Ninjitsu should remain unique to Stalkers then I apologize for misunderstanding. However, you responded to a post that was made in reply to claims that Ninjistu SHOULD remain unique to Stalkers. Since you were countering my argument, it was reasonable for me to assume you supported that position.

You are also not doing a very good job of avoiding the defense of that position. You suggest giving a Scrapper an APP instead. Why should a Scrapper get an APP DEFENSE? Scrappers already get an APP which has a gadget theme, it is called Weapon Mastery. Caltrops is already in it. Had Blinding Powder existed at the time, it might have been in it. And this would cause even MORE conflicts with Proliferating Ninjitsu.

And what "work" is involved in tweaking the set for Proliferation? The replacement of two powers, and possible adjustment of another. Stalkers have gotten more tweaks than that in every single Primary and Secondary they have gotten. If anything, adapting Ninjitsu to Scrappers should be merely the reversal of adapting a standard Defense Set to Stalkers.

Again, all those powers were "unique" at the time they were Proliferation. Prior to the release of CoV, all of the Tanker and Scrapper Power Sets were unique except for Invulnerability. CoV single handledly eliminated most of the limitation of sets to one AT, as the villain ATs gained most of the same Power Sets.

You're arguing terminology, but the posts I was responding to had claimed that Ninjitsu should be unique to Stalkers because there is something inherent about Stalkers that makes Ninjitsu specific to them. That is what I meant by "Ninjitsu is not unique to Stalkers". Ninjitsu is a Defense Set. That means it serves the same purpose as all other Defense Sets, it mitigates damage for the AT that has it. And EVERY power in Ninjitsu, whether it eliminates aggro or not, has that effect, whether it's the main intended effect or a secondary one.

Why? A Scrapper would not Critical from Hide because that's an Inherent power of Stalkers. It is not part of the Hide power.

It will need a new name, but there don't need to be any changes to it. Unless you can explain exactly what you think would be wrong with the power on a Scrapper.

"A lot of changes and testing"? We are talking about two powers, Caltrops and Smoke Flash. As I've already said, Proliferating any Power Set to Stalkers requires more changes and just as much testing.

It doesn't have to be Quickness. But I think when you start talking about how Ninjistu is going to turn into some "uberset" just because it's ported to Scrappers, I think you're overreacting. Sure, it's entirely possible sets like Energy Melee and Super Strength have not yet been ported because of balance issues. On the other hand, that could just be talk. Until we try it, we can't know that.

I'll also point out that if your argument is that Ninjitsu would be too "uber" on any other AT, that counters the argument made by others that Ninjitsu would fail to function on any other AT. Both arguments appear to me to be guesswork.

I've already said that Tankers don't really match up to the theme of Ninjitsu, and others agree. This doesn't mean Tankers couldn't get some "Tech Defense" set that eliminates the stealth and substitutes other gadgets, but the set lacks a taunt aura. I suggested replacing Smoke Flash for Tankers and Brutes with a taunt aura.

Scrappers, however, should not have any conceptual conflict with Smoke Flash. I would eliminate it simply because it would not really be useful. A Scrapper doesn't need to hold aggro to be effective, though, and not all Scrappers can tank well.

And Blinding Powder should be no more detrimental to a Brute's Fury than Cloak of Fear or Oppressive Gloom. Heck, even a Tanker should be able to use it. Blinding Powder DOES NOT CAUSE YOU TO LOSE AGGRO. It transfers the attacks to an enemy target, but once the Confuse ends and the foe goes back to attacking the team, IT GOES RIGHT BACK TO ATTACKING YOU IF YOU HAVE AGGRO. Smoke Flash is the only power that actually counters aggro, causing you to lose it and transfer it to another teammate.

Likewise, neither stealth nor -perception will cause you to lose aggro. The only thing visibility does it make it harder to get aggro in the first place. And even in that case, -perception is a better effect than stealth, because it'll keep the foes from aggroing on your allies as well as on you, while you're getting in position.

Again, why is it not Ninjitsu? It has Kuji-In Sha. It has Danger Sense. It has Kuji-In Rin that protects against Fear, but not Knockback. It has Kuji-In Retsu. Presumably, it has stealth. If it has some variant of Blinding Powder and some other "gadgets" as well, then how is it not Ninjitsu?

I don't see my arguments as blind. I see them as quite grounded in actual gameplay and the history of the game. I see the argument "No one but Stalkers should have Ninjitsu because no one but Stalkers has Ninjitsu and something bad might happen if we Proliferate it" to be blind. So far I have yet to see a concrete example of how a stealth power or one that causes Confuse would cause gameplay issues for Scrappers.

Hm. That's weird, I didn't realize that "Avoid" and "Afraid" are two different things. It makes sense, though, Avoid is moving away from a given location, while Afraid is getting away from whoever is trying to hurt you. Not to say that it's actually implemented that way, but that's the intention. (In pracrice, Afraid is always cast from a dropped pseudo-pet, so it could just as easily be causing the victim to move away from the pet)

I was going to say that Avoid might be intended to stop when you leave the AoE of the effect, however, I'd noticed Caltrops sending foes in to a frenzy, particularly werewolves, who with their high speed movement tend to take off all over the terrain when you drop a Caltrop patch. However, looking at CoD shows that Caltrops has the Afraid effect, not Avoid. I'm not sure if this is a bug, or CoD is wrong, or what.

Aside from that and Spooky, though, Fear is Fear. To me, what Spooky does is "old Fear". And that's only his single target attack, his AoE aura is normal Fear. (So anyone he sends running away screaming will still be Terrorized when and if he comes back)

BTW, when I said "the run away effect", that was really referring to Afraid/Avoid. Although the effect triggered when a critter is attacked and cannot hit the attacker many not be Afraid per se. The result is the same, though, and both can be overcome by Taunt.

Yes, Taunt should always override the run away effect. One thing to remember is that Fear will never, in itself, cause a foe to run. The Fear effect is for the foe to cower in place, and not attack unless attacked back. If the run effect activates, it's because the Fear effect caused him to be hit by several attacks while he was unable to hit. (I'm guessing this is why low level MOBs sometimes run when hit by Fear. It's not because the Fear is making them run, but because they can't hit because they con grey)

Anyway, I personally consider it a bad idea to continue a toggle on a running critter. You never know what spawn that critter is going to run into, and aggro with your toggle. So while I'll agree your team leader was an idiot, Rom might not have been the best target to drop Darkest Night on. Of course, you want to make sure it's an anchor which won't be easily killed, but that's just something you have to decide based on the conditions of the fight.

I would say that if he was the only one being effected by the debuff, and he had run off and was no longer attacking, there really was no reason to keep it up. So turning it off was probably a good idea, just not for the reason the team leader said.

Just to make myself clear, I was not trying to imply that. Rather, I was trying to be tactful and not unnecessarily criticise the OP or his skills at searching the forums. There is enough of that from others.

Not saying you don't have a point, but hey, you know me.

Power Sets do not reflect AT functionality. Scrappers, Tankers, Brutes and Stalkers all share the same Power Sets. Scrappers do not have sets that are more melee focused, Tankers do not have sets that are more defense focused, Brutes do not have sets that are more focused on building Fury. There may be sets that fit those descriptions, but each of the ATs get access to sets that do not match that specialization either.

Scrappers and Stalkers share Dark Armor, Electrical Armor, Regeneration, Super Reflexes and Willpower. Scrappers get Fiery Aura, Shield and Invulnerability, while Stalkers get Energy Aura and Ninjitsu. There is nothing about those three Scrapper sets that are specifically reflective of "straight up fighting", and all three are shared with Tankers and Brutes.

And when you get right down to it, the only power in Ninjitsu that is designed for "aggro mitigation" is Smoke Flash. Blinding Powder does not mitigate aggro any more than Cloak of Fear does. (Or putting it another way, Cloak of Fear mitigates aggro as much as Smoke Flash does) At best, the aggro is mitigated because the foe cannot attack the caster. But any mez power does that. 6 powers in Ninjitsu do not mitigate aggro in any way.

Ice Armor is a totally different issue. It presumably interfered with Brutes' Fury. There is no knowing whether it would still interfere with Fury, or if it could be ported to Brutes now.

The main thing is, there is NOTHING stopping Ice Armor from being ported to Stalkers. It would be a great Stalker set, outside of Icicles, which could be replaced by something without a taunt aura. Chilling Embrace would be GREAT for Stalkers, now that Hide suppresses auras, it would not draw any aggro while in Hide, and would slow foes after the Stalker attacks and prevent them from running away.

So just to start with, your assertion that Ice Armor wouldn't work with another AT is wrong. It could be proliferated to Scrappers and Stalkers, and probably will be. Second, as I said, 6 of the 9 powers in Ninjitsu wouldn't need to be changed for Scrappers at all. (Caltrops you don't have to change, just eliminate the duplication) Scrappers have Cloak of Darkness, so giving them stealth is not out of the question, and Smoke Flash could be replaced with something more appropriate to Scrappers.

It all comes down to Blinding Powder. That's what your whole argument is about. And if Blinding Powder is less useful to Scrappers, then who cares? Scrapper Ninjtsu will still have Stealth/Cloaking Device, it will still have Kuji-In Sha, and it will still (hopefully) be a gadget-based variant of Super Reflexes. THAT, more than assassin strikes and aggro management, is to me the aspect that makes Ninjitsu what it is.