Jade_Dragon

While in the context of this post it is obvious what the phrase "Natural Concept" means, and I really appreciate that, I would once again like to recommend the term "Skill-Based" to refer to a character of this type.

In fact, I believe that a Science (Captain America) or Mutant (Gear, from Static Shock) can be "skill based", as well as those of the Natural origin. However, skill-based is a natural fit (pun intended) for the Natural Origin, and makes up a good portion of those who are Natural, along with the aliens and the "chi powers" martial artists.

Other than that, not a bad overview. I will mention that my psychotic Mastermind, Psycommando, has Super Speed, but it's because he apparently takes drugs.

I'll add that you left out the dubious but workable explanation of Teleport being hacking into the Emergency Medical Transport system. Since there ARE no other travel powers in your list, outside of Invisibility, it can be useful to have one, in case you don't want to go so far as sacrificing a travel power for concept. A lot of Naturals also pick Super Jump, as jump boots are a lot easier to imagine than a jetpack for Flying. (Or can be built into the costume)

Also, I explain Joe Everyman's Transfusion as a medikit. Even though he doesn't pull out a "tricorder", it's healing, and I can explain his use of it in combat as it has only limited "charges" and thus is for emergencies (i.e., when you are taking damage) only. The End reduction is a totally separate tactical effect. And while I'm on the subject of Joe...

[ QUOTE ]
If you're a normal looking Joe in plainclothes, this could make a lot of sense for you, too, as somebody who's invisible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh. That sounds familiar.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This does not feel right to me, super reflexes are for doging, evasion. Not "rolling with the punch", that kind of thing should be under brawling. In Super Reflexes I want more DEF.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only problem with your request, is that there is a 5% hard cap on defense. [...] While resistance also has a hard cap ([correction - 90%]), it works better than defense when it comes to handling damage. Defense is very binary; you're either hit, or you're not. Resistance, on the other hand, is scalable, but always works.

[/ QUOTE ]

In other words, the basic issue is as follows: If you have hit the Resistance cap, then you can fight a theoretical foe that is doing slow, steady damage to you. You are losing HP, but it is 10% of what normally would have been taken, and so it is very static and constant. You can see, by watching your HP bar, exactly how much time you have, and either defeat the foe, or retreat when it becomes obvious you can't kill him.

OTOH, if you have capped Defense, then you still are taking only 10% of the damage you would have taken. (50% normal to hit compared to 5% is 10%) But, instead of taking this damage slowly and steadily, you take it ALL AT ONCE. Again, using this theoretic foe as an example you could fight him for as long as the Resistance character was fighting, and then SUDDENLY, you would be hit for all of your HP. The final result is the same, you fought for the same amount of time, and took the same amount of damage.

The problem is, you can never tell WHEN that attack will hit you. It could come ten seconds into the fight, half a second into the fight, or never. You could be dropped before you even get a chance to try, get your foe down to half HP and then get killed, or manage to defeat him. You have no opportunity to anticipate you defeat and escape.

Now, this is an extreme example and normally you won't take that much damage. But it is the essense of high Defense, the Defense you get from Evasion. And again, it can never get any higher. You cannot increase your predictability by raising Defense, in fact, it only becomes MORE a factor of luck.

Finally, there is the OBVIOUS fact (to me at least, I'm not sure why no one else can see it) that no other Defense set actually DOES rely on one form of defense. Invulnerability has a combination of Defense and Resistance, and has Dull Pain to fall back on. Stone Armor is also as much Defense as Resistance. Ice Armor has a heal and HP boost, as well as a recharge reduction on foes, reducing the amount of incoming damage. Regeneration combines healing and Resistance, while Dark has healing, fear, and Resistance, along with some Defense (probably not a small amount) in its stealth. All of these sets allow the hits that do get through Defense to be mitigated again in some way, either by resisting them, allowing you to survive what might be a one hit kill, or healing afterwards, reducing the risk of a second hit killing you.

Super Reflexes' variable Resistance, while it is minor compared to any other Defense set, at least provides a chance that should you take one massive hit, a second will not be guaranteed to kill you. You can still be one-shotted, and you can still be killed by a second hit, but at least it has to be significant, and not a minor hit from a Minion. It may be hard to explain in concept terms, but it's necessary if SR is to be entirely Defense, with nothing else to fall back on. I personally believe a heal would be better, but there are those who argue against that concept as well. (Although I wonder who hasn't seen Batman use a stimulant or some sort of medical device to heal himself sufficiently to get back into the fight. Maybe that's Ninjitsu, though)

[ QUOTE ]
Apparently, the authorities turn a blind eye to many illegal activities rather than face the alternative: superpowered individuals breaking the law and terrorizing citizens without being opposed by superhuman deputies.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is the reason for the Citizen Crime Fighting Act, even though as I said in the last post it may be in violation of the Constitution. The point is, though, not ALL superheroes step over that line. Many of them could be assumed to be acting only in self defense while a select few use considerably more violence because of a PERSONAL choice to try and discourage crime by making it more "painful".

Most of my characters would fall into the first category. In fact, of my five main characters, at least three of them would NEVER attack first. Joe Everyman, because of his concept, would make HIMSELF a mugging victim and then fight back. Sandy also would never be the first to attack, she hates fighting, and would beg the criminal not to fight. Jade Dragon typically would also use his powers to restrain the victim, and only harm him as a last resort. That leaves Blue Diamond, who will cheerfully beat a bad guy to a bloody pulp. But as it's not his style to sneak up on someone, he would most likely be attacked first.

Bloodwolf is the one exception. He would definately strike first, strike hard, and cause enough pain to hopefully make the villain think twice about hurting anyone ever again. But that's his character, he's Batman, essentially. I can't see the authorities of Paragon City condoning his actions, and in fact he doesn't care. He doesn't trust them, either, and it's very unlikely they could bring him to justice if they did decide to persecute him for his more vigilante tactics.

I have to admit that the original post in this thread was very well written and thought out. And there are definately some points that are worth thinking about. However, I can't help but get the feeling that the OP has a political agenda that he is trying to put forth. That he reaches the conclusion, obviously contrary to the intent of both games, that Paragon City is authoritarian, oppressive, and unquestioning, (even evil) and that the Rogue Isles is free, individualistic, and governed in a "frontier" style (although certainly not democratic) would seem to support this.

While there has certainly been a loss of freedom in the institution of registered heroes (The Might Makes Right Act was overturned, I believe, but other later laws do seem contrary to the spirit of the Constitution) at the same time I think it's wrong to characterize heroes as going around "hunting down and assaulting" innocent people in violation of their human rights. First of all, we know for a fact that in a game sense, no one is allowed to die. The level of violence in the game is a matter of option; there are some who believe that what you see on the screen is not necessarily what is really happening, and you can decide that your character is killing his foes, or conversely, that he is NOT beating his opponents senseless, but talking to them, (maybe even interrogating them, depending on how much force you want to put behind that) and resorting to violence only after all else fails.

Likewise, as I have pointed out here MANY times before, we are not talking about average citizens on the street. Even the lowly gang members that superheroes start out going up against are SUPER POWERED INDIVIDUALS, meaning that they have resistances and strength beyond that of ordinary humans. The superhero is in a moderate amount of danger when he confronts a supervillain, and he can be assured that if he uses his powers, the chances are that he will most likely NOT do unacceptable damage to him. One could argue that a super punch or a machine gun to the gut to a supervillain is no more "assault" than a slap across the face to a normal human.

The legal term "assault" typically does not try to characterize an amount of damage that is required to make it "assault", but instead considers the INTENT of the act. When Superman lets some thugs shoot at him, to demonstrate they can't hurt them, and then knocks them out with a simple tap to the head, that isn't really "assault" since it is not Superman's intent to hurt them. Quite the contrary, in fact, Superman is usually acting to prevent the thugs from hurting themselves accidently, as they shoot at him. He may simply disarm them and leave them with no way to defend themselves, which as we said above, is a possible interpretation of how your hero acts, if that's the way you want it to be.

In addition, the game makes it clear that when they DO see you, the first reaction of every criminal is to attack you. Even if it could be characterized as assault, your actions in fighting back are clearly self defense, both from the language your foes use when they attack (often saying something like "I'm gonna collect me a mask") and their actions in attacking you. You can attack before a foe is "aggroed", but that's a game concept and it is useful from a gameplay standpoint to attack first. That doesn't mean you would do the same in real life, and more importantly, as your foes are actually pre-programmed AI, you know what their reaction will be anyway.

Similarly, we have super powered individuals, who even the police are powerless to stop, committing petty crimes and harassing the citizens. Most of the "talking to others" is typically discussing crimes or drug sales and is thus illegal, and even the "political speeches" may be against the law. You are allowed to speak freely in this country, yes, but you must also do it responsibly. I kind of doubt the Council warns the city first about their "demonstrations", to make sure they are orderly and peaceful.

As for the gangs and other supervillain groups being "unpopular with the government", I don't think they're all that popular with the people, either. They go around mugging people, breaking and entering, and extorting money and possibly even other "favors". (We haven't seen a [censored] in game, but I'm guessing that's because of the rating)

Finally, the fact is, once a villain is arrested, there is no reason to think that he is NOT given his legal rights to a trial. There is far more violation of human rights in CoV, where villains regularly kidnap normal humans -- who often do NOT have super powers -- and deliver them to torture or worse. Other villains you come across are beaten, probably with far less restraint than a hero would show, and left to fend for themselves if they are lucky enough to be saved by the teleport system. In fact, a number of times your Contacts imply that you should eliminate your adversaries, not using the word kill, I believe, but still making it clear that the victims should not be left alive to talk.

Of course, you still have the flexibility to interpret what you do with those orders within the concept of your character. I personally prefer the idea that both Paragon City and the Rogue Isle have their light and their dark sides, and one of my characters, Bloodwolf, is both a hero and a villain, crossing over between the two to root out corruption WHEREVER it occurs. But at least in Paragon City, you can assume that the people you defeat are, if not freed, at least given hospital care and taken care of while in prison. And since they are not some sort of political activists being imprisoned for their beliefs, but super powered criminals using their abilities to harm and exploit people who are weaker than them and unable to defend themselves against such great power, that's where they belong...

Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. CoH/CoV is a world where such power is common. Notions of "justice" and "rights" have to take that into account.

Just so you know, you don't have to explain this to me in such detail. I'm quite sure I understand all the mathematics involved.

[ QUOTE ]
Theoretically, you can stack enough Defense to do *more than* floor your target. Against an even level minion, 45% defense gives you 90% mitigation, and more Defense does nothing (its a form of pseudo cap). However, what happens against a +2 AV? If the intermediate floor didn't exist, a high Defense set could floor *that* to 5% also. But a +2 AV has a base 90% tohit on things without Defense. Flooring to 5% is 94% mitigation - better than against minions.

It would be hypocritical to ask for Defense to scale as well as Resistance for all low values of Defense, and to scale consistently better than Resistance for all high values of Defense. Therefore, the intermediate floor acts to ensure that Defense is never more effective against higher Rank and higher Level critters than it is against even minions - the level of accuracy that Defense is calibrated against.

[/ QUOTE ]

A good point, and one I had not considered. I merely assumed that since the original to hit was flooring at 5%, that was 90% damage mitigation for the hit. But since as you say the chance to hit normally is much HIGHER than 50%, the mitigation of THAT damage is also higher.

The question is, does the player base CARE that this is "not fair"? Is it more important that Defense and Resistance be "bashed to fit" the exact same parameters, or is the 5% to hit floor the 5% to hit floor, and not, "5% sometimes and not 5% other times"? Remember that we are not talking about a hard cap, as you said yourself. 45% Defense will protect against an AV or a Minion the exact same amount, since it does NOT floor the AV's to hit, and never would. 50% Defense, however, is no more useful than 45% against a Minion, but might give a bit more protection against an AV.

As I said, if this is "working as intended", then fine. However, Def and Res do not work the same, and don't cap the same. You can't really compare the "soft" cap of to hit to the "hard" cap of Resistance, as there are so many other things that can effect to hit, like debuffs. Plus, as you said in an earlier post, the "intermediate" floor check was only added in I4 to prevent the very problem I pointed out, of to hit going negative. If you look at the to hit equation as a single operation and not a means of balancing damage mitigation, maybe the proper answer is to floor it at an absolute 5% to hit.

I'm reminded of another similar issue, that I'm still not very sure about. I think that low level foes are supposed to have a penalty, instead of a bonus like high level foes do. This penalty, under I6 and previous, would obviously offer greater protection to Defense-based sets, at least up to the point where to hit is floored. For instance, if you have a foe in I6 with a -5% to hit penalty, and had 40% Defense, you would floor his to hit, for an 88.89% mitigation of damage. That's more than the 80% you would expect. And of course, I found that to be the case when playing my SR Scrapper, I was quite good at taking out huge numbers of greens and greys.

If I am correct, though, the original equation is still being used in I7, if the foe is lower level than you. Only higher level foes have been changed. I think I remember a dev saying that. If not, then obviously Defense-based sets will be hit more often by lower level foes, but the damage mitigation should be no worse than Resistance. OTOH, if I'm right, Def still has an advantage over Res. Against foes that do not give a lot of XP, but technically there is an imbalance.

Or is there not a penalty for low level MOBs? I'm not really sure, although I believe that buffs and debuffs are not resisted, and in fact are not resisted but increased, instead of reduced as with higher level foes.

[ QUOTE ]
Love the new 'deflected' instead of 'miss'.
Actual onscreen evidence of FF buffs etc having an effect.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow! They really did this? Woot, as they say!

Now I wonder if it only applies to Defense buffs put on you, or if Ice Armor will see the "deflected" text. Or Super Reflexes will? (I would expect the latter would be a bug, or unintended side effect)

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, the fact that the floor for more accurate critters is now higher than it was previously has been discussed on the boards for a while now. While the patch notes don't spell this out, it isn't new information.

That said, I'll rework the text and add it to the list. You are correct that it should have been in there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, if this is a decision that it is "working as intended", that is fine. As others have pointed out, "I'm taking twice as much damage!!!" isn't telling all the story, if you're being plinked for 10 HP out of 1000 four times, instead of only two. If there is a problem with individual powers (like MoG) then they can be tweaked.

I'll go ahead and repeat my previous suggestion on the subject, though. If I understand what's happening, a 5% "floor" on to hit is being applied when the "to hit" part of the equation is calculated, and then again when the "accuracy" part of the equation is calculated. I'm quite sure I remember some redname (maybe Positron) saying it was calculated twice.

I understand the reason for the first floor operation, of course, you don't want the to hit to go negative and then apply an accuracy modifier that would have the opposite effect. Why not floor it -- the first time -- at 1%, though, instead of 5%? The second calculation, and thus the total still floors at 5%, just like before, but a Boss or AV can't get above that 5% unless he has like 500% Accuracy.

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming the numbers over in this thread in Guides are more or less correct, Defenders and Dominators both do approximately 65% of Blaster damage for ranged attacks, while Dominators do 65% for melee (compared to Defenders 55%), which does give me some hard numbers to back up my feeling on this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, if you read that table more closely, you find that Dominators do 70% of Blaster damage for melee attacks, compared to 55% for Defenders. So if you're just looking at base damage, then Dominators seem to have the clear advantage.

The problem is, you CAN'T just look at base damage. Back in CoH Beta, Defender damage was lowered from 75% to 65% because it was being shown that with their damage buffs, certain Defenders (mainly Rad) could do ALMOST as much damage as a Blaster. (Around 98%) With that much damage and defenses as well (the Rad could debuff incoming to hit and damage) the question was asked what use Blasters had on a team. The response of the devs was to drop base damage for Defenders to 65%, maintaining them at the intended "medium" damage but ONLY if you included their ability to buff themselves.

Dominators, on the other hand, have no ability to buff themselves. I can't give an overall value for what a Defender's buffed damage is supposed to be, but I believe Siphon Power gives a 30% boost to damage. And that's on a Controller, which according to another table in the post you made, is 1.00 compared to a Defender's 1.25. So for a Defender using Siphon Power the damage boost should actually be 37.5%.

Of course, Kinetics is one of the most powerful offensive Buff/Debuff sets out there, so I think we can probably call this the MAXIMUM "base" damage for a Defender, and it comes out to 89.375%, almost 90%. By comparison, a Corruptor with 75% damage would get the same 1.00 damage boost as the Controller so that's 75%*130%=97.5%, which is awfully close to Blaster damage. (As well as the 98% estimate I stated above for Rad)

The only thing Dominators really come close to is the Controller boosted damage, which is 55%*130% or 71.5%. This is more than Dominator ranged damage, but comes close to their melee damage. Note that Masterminds, as well, have 55% damage but their debuffs are a little weaker than Controllers (only 0.75) and so their damage is 67.375%.

And to make matters worse, even if Dominators DID have a way to boost their damage (and the Thorns and Fire Secondaries do) it's only 0.85 effectiveness. A Blaster's Aim is 1.25 (on those tables again) so even if you gave a Dominator Aim, it would only boost damage by 42.5% (the same as a Corruptor) instead of 62.5%. And Defender-style team buffs wouldn't fare much better.

Now, Buff/Debuff sets vary wildly, and as I said this is likely the maximum numbers. In practice, especially with sets that have very few damage buffs, or even none, like Force Fields, the damage will be closer to the base. But nearly every Buff/Debuff set has a damage buff or resistance debuff they can maintain at least part of the time. And Tar Patch I am pretty sure is 30% as well, I have tested it also. So that number may be, if not absolute, very close to the buff a Defender, Corruptor, Controller or Mastermind can expect to get.

Anyway, my suggestion would be to raise Dominators' base ranged damage to 70%, and then raise their melee damage to either 80% or even 90%. That would keep them fairly weak overall, so Corruptors wouldn't feel threatened (not that the actual damage of a Dominator could come close to a Corruptor) but allow the Dominator to be a "Scraptroller" and do some real damage to foes it holds. I'd also like to see a damage boost in every Secondary, not just a few, and the Power Boost power could also be added to the sets that don't have it. (Maybe even moved into the Primary)

A Dominator will never do as much damage as a Defender (unless it's a Force Field Defender) and if the devs believe otherwise they are obviously fooling themselves. The best we can hope for is to do more damage than a Controller, and get that massive boost when we finally get Domination.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

first thing i noticed for anyone that doesnt have a claws is that none of the animations are new. swipe is the same animation as barrage in the energy melee set, strike is the same animation as jab from super strengh and slash is strikes old animation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed...but both are TANKER effects...no such thing for a scrapper...period. Therefore, acceptable.
That said
omgicantbelievewhatyoudidyouguystotallyrockiloveyo u
whew...glad to get that off my chest.

[/ QUOTE ]

In fact, I've often said that Martial Arts is, conceptually, the same as Super Strength; a "natural" set, physical damage, mostly knockback, but with some stuns. (More stuns for MA, but more knockback with SS)

However, this also points out that Claws, in a gameplay sense, is also related to SS. Both are extremely fast, low End cost power sets balanced for prolonged fights, not burst damage. MA is more like EM in that respect, slower and more damage. (Although of course EM has the advantage of not being physical damage)

Anyway, I haven't tried the changes yet, but I have a Claws Scrapper so I'm sure I'll try it out.

[ QUOTE ]
17) Damage done does not affect a Taunt effect’s effectiveness at any time, ever, not Duration, not AoE, and not Magnitude.

[/ QUOTE ]

I could have sworn that the devs said that the damage done by an attack effected the RANGE of the Gauntlet Taunt. I've been going on the assumption that this is the case, as my Tanker draws aggro from remarkable distances, and I always assumed this was due to the fact that I slot damage so heavily.

However, this may not necessarily be due to the actual damage, as you say, and may instead be a factor of the slotting. You state that Taunt Enhancements effect duration, perhaps Damage Enhancements effect AoE.

Unfortunately, having never played many more Tankers than just my main one, I don't really have a comparison. It's also possible that level effects the range, since the few alt Tankers I've played are still much lower level than my main.

I do wonder, however, why the devs would say that damage effects the range if that isn't true. (But then I may be thinking of discussions of the original "punchvoke" concept)

For those who are having trouble understanding how you are supposed to have your henchmen attack or move to a location while still having use of Bodyguard, you have two choices:

1) Select your target or targets and send your henchmen to attack it. Then, after combat is engaged, switch all henchmen back to follow defensive. Since they are already taking fire, defensive mode will not stop them from firing.

2) Place a subset of your henchmen in aggressive mode and direct them to attack while another subset remain behind in follow defensive. When the henchmen set to aggressive mode draw fire (because they are attacking) the henchmen in defensive mode will open fire to support them.

The first suggestion will maximize your opening salvo as all henchmen will fire on the foe or foes. However, you are sacrificing Bodyguard for that, and will have no protection until you switch them back to follow defensive during the fight. Of course, since you are likely not going to attack first you should not draw aggro yourself until the battle is well underway.

The second suggestion is safer, as you still retain some Bodyguard, but you lose some of your alpha strike damage. I have found this technique very handy, though, as it ensures aggro is concentrated on a smaller group of my henchmen, and I and my protective henchmen can focus our defense better on them. (Putting it another way, my Protector Bot doesn't get shot as much, which is good since he can't heal himself)

In either case, should you get in trouble and start drawing fire, you can set all bots to Bodyguard mode and get their full protection. If you aren't the one taking fire, you really don't need Bodyguard mode. So it shouldn't be needed for the alpha strike, only later. For the second suggestion, you can stay in partial Bodyguard (sloughing the damage off to your Protector Bot or whatever your defender is) for protection against the occasional fire you may take. Full Bodyguard is for when you get in real trouble.

[ QUOTE ]
Funny tidbit -

When we first got these on internal for testing the 5th were bugged.

Link to Screeny of what the 5th looked like before it was fixed:

Linky

I kind of liked them that way. Nothing more frightening than a pair of glowing eyes and shoulder pads in a dark alley.

[/ QUOTE ]

Reminds me of the floating robots from that old Disney movie "The Black Hole".

[ QUOTE ]
Okay so all the drawings I have had done of TA are illegal?


or against the policy?


I certainly don't wanna get anyone in trouble

[/ QUOTE ]

Fanfiction and fan art are okay. Arctic_Sun confirmed it: "You can use them in fanfiction, etc., but you cannot profit from them."

Now, there may be a legal issue if whoever it was who drew it charged for the drawing. But YOU own the copyright to the character and YOU are not making the money off of it, the person who drew the art is. And if it's a commissioned work I'm not sure if it's an issue or not, as the artist could be said to be charging for his talent, not for the content of the picture.

OTOH, I don't really see what the difference between this and the T-Shirt is. So I'm guessing it's back down to fan art, even though the person you commissoned to do the drawing may have charged you for it, it wasn't a "professional" work, and thus is more of a fan work. I suspect you'll have some people who refuse to do certain commissions for that reason, though. (Just as the T-Shirt shop refused to do the T-Shirt)

I have two characters that I developed and, in my understanding, gained legal right to the copyright of, prior to the release of CoH. When I brought them into CoH I changed them in both minor and major ways, and don't believe them to be the same characters. While they are similar in concept, it is again the difference between Green Arrow and Hawkeye, or Superman and Hyperion. The background is similar, but different, and more importantly, their background is set in CoH. I cannot separate the CoH characters from CoH, therefore they exist as copyrighted individuals only as it refers to their existance in CoH. (And all related media)

Putting it another way, while I don't think Stan Lee could create a hero named "Spider-Guy" in a blue on red (not red on blue) costume and have him swing around Paragon City, he also can't say that he has never published the character before. Marvel has to protect not just Spider-Man but the perception of Spider-Man. If he was still just a figment of Stan Lee's imagination I'm sure there would be no problem with a character coming out years later who looked SORT OF the same.

And that's Marvel, who has a chance of being read by somebody. I doubt I'll ever sell anything to anyone. So the version of Jade Dragon and Blue Diamond that live in Houston, don't have costumes, and get their powers from a psychic source and not magic probably aren't in any danger of putting NCSoft in an awkward position.

The only place in which I see there could be an issue is the fact that I use exactly the same names. But again, since it's unlikely that the concepts of Jade Dragon and Blue Diamond that existed before are known to anyone outside my family and a few folks who went to school with me, I'm hoping that's not an issue. And I KNOW both names have been taken on other servers, so it doesn't matter whether I have it or not. It's not a known name.

[ QUOTE ]
So does this leave /FF MMs gimped, or does it bring them in line with other MMs?

And I mean in a team environment, not solo-versus-the-Zone play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't believe anyone would say that Force Field for any OTHER Archetype is overpowered, or that it needs to be "brought in line" with the other Power Sets. I know no one will say FF outperforms Dark as a Defender Primary. (Although ironically FF combines well with Dark Blast, while Dark Miasma is a great combination with Energy)

If FF IS overpowered for Masterminds, then they are certainly unique in that.

_Castle_ confirmed in a PM that Resistance is bypassed, along with Defense:

[ QUOTE ]
Resistance does NOT apply to damage passed to a pet through Bodyguard.

[/ QUOTE ]

So it does seem as if Defense and Resistance are similarly bypassed. Bodyguard gets the MM's Defense, however, while it does not get the MM's Resistance.

Resistance is a lot rarer in Mastermind powers than Defense, but since I wanted it clarified, I figured I would post that it has been. Besides, it's important to note that Bodyguard will bypass both the innate Resistance AND Defense of your pets.

[ QUOTE ]
And if the Henchmen are not being attacked at all and only the Mastermind, then what good is bubbling the Henchmen in the first place?

[/ QUOTE ]

Therein lies the rub.

Twilight Grasp: can be used to heal Bodyguard damage
Darkest Night: can be used to protect against Bodyguard damage, AND lower its damage
Shadow Fall: can be used to protect against Bodyguard damage
Alkaloid: can be used to heal Bodyguard damage. (Although not the MM, which may make that point moot)
Weaken: can be used to protect against Bodyguard damage, and reduce the damage
Noxious Gas: can be used to protect against Bodyguard damage, and reduce it
Triage Beacon: can be used to heal Bodyguard damage. (minimally, but at least it effects the MM too)
Force Field Generator: can be used to protect against Bodyguard damage
Seeker Drones: protect against Bodyguard damage, and reduce it
Flash Arrow: protects against Bodyguard damage
Poison Gas Arrow: reduces incoming Bodyguard damage

now for Force Field:

Deflection Shield: does NOT protect against Bodyguard damage
Insulation Shield: does NOT protect against Bodyguard damage
Personal Force Field: does NOT protect against Bodyguard damage
Dispersion Bubble: DOES protect against Bodyguard damage

And if you want to include status effect like knockback in that list, then ALL status effects, including the ones used by the other MM sets, protect the MM as well as the henchmen, so that is no difference.

Finally, it's incorrect to assume that just because the MM is being targetted that he will die before the henchmen. He may have Resistances that won't apply to his henchmen. (Even if their own Resistance isn't bypassed) He may have Aid Self. And Dark doesn't even need that.

The issue here is that there are two Powers that Bodyguard effectively renders useless. They may be useful in a PvE environment where the AI is not smart enough to bypass the ally Shields, but certainly a PvP opponent will be smart enough. And even if you assume the Bodyguards will only be hit by the shots fired at the MM because he is drawing aggro on himself, that still means you have two Powers totally bypassed, which no other Power in any MM Secondary is.

Now, maybe you could say that the protection from Def/Ins Shield are so high that the lack of protection from Bodyguard is a balancing issue. That sounds like a rationalization, though, and it's exploitable. It would be simpler to just lower the Def across the board if there is an imbalance. In truth, this is an implementation issue, it's a side effect of the way to hit is calculated and how Defense works. It's not intended, and if MMs had Sonic instead (and if it turns out that Res is not bypassed) then we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I still think the best solution is to change PFF so it's the player's version of Def/Ins Shield. Then while Bodyguard bypasses the ally shields, at least the henchmen will have the defense from the MM that he WOULDN'T have. Or put the Defense in Repulsion Field or Force Bubble. (the former would make a bit more sense, I think) It doesn't solve the problem, but at least it takes advantage of the fact that while Bodyguards lose some Def, they gain other Def they aren't supposed to have...

[ QUOTE ]
What you seem to be forgetting is that even though those attacks are passing your bubbles, it is also passing any resistance that the pets themselves have (for damage dealt through Bodyguard). This hits all MM pets equally regardless of Secondary.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true. And yes, it does effect all MMs equally. While only Shadow Fall (as I stated above) has a Resistance component, pets usually have their own innate Resistances as well. So this would be bypassed.

However, as I stated above, I don't believe that what _Castle_ said conclusively proves that Resistance is bypassed. Until a redname confirms or denies this, I'm not going to make the assumption that it is bypassed.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Keep in mind, we can't bubble ourselves!!!! Thats what people who don't have the secondary always seem to forget.

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean Personal Forcefield, Dispersion Bubble, Repulsion Field, and Force Bubble DON'T bubble the Mastermind??? Who knew?!

[/ QUOTE ]

Personal Force Field, by definition, cannot be used with Bodyguard. Thus its protection COULD NEVER apply to the henchmen.

Repulsion Field and Force Bubble do not provide Defense. They keep foes out of melee range, but they do that for the henchmen as well. (More for Force Bubble than Repulsion Field, but both are designed to keep foes out of melee) However, in both cases the foes can still fire back using ranged attacks. Those attacks have a better chance of hitting the MM than the henchmen, thus the foe would gain the same advantage by targetting the MM. Force Bubble and Repulsion Field do nothing for this.

[ QUOTE ]
I should also point out that */Forcefeild is not unique in getting defenses bypassed by Bodyguard directly to the the Henchmen. Shadowfall, Forcefeild Drone, Protector Bot Bubbles, and Manuevers all get bypassed in the same way. In fact, */Forcefield is superior to all this in that it can grant the best defense available to the Mastermind Archtype for the Mastermind, meaning fewer attacks will actually get through to hit the Mastermind and then have damaged shared to the Henchmen in Bodyguard mode.

[/ QUOTE ]

The issue is that while Shadowfall, Forcefield Drone, Protector Bot Bubbles, and Manuevers are all bypassed in the same way as Force Field, they can all be reasonably expected to provide THE SAME protection to the MM. That is, since the damage must first hit the MM, the fact that his henchmen are not protected is irrelevant, since they would have to have made THE EXACT SAME ROLL to hit anyway.

The issue with Force Field is that the MM CANNOT be expected to have the same Defense as his henchmen. The ONLY Defense an FF MM has access to, while still allowing Bodyguard, is Dispersion Bubble. He cannot use either Deflection or Repulsion Bubble on himself. Thus he has less than half the protection he can give to his henchmen.

Thus, it is more efficient for an enemy to attack the MM's henchmen through the MM himself, since he will hit them more often. Even if the MM somehow shunts all the damage away to his men and uses Aid Self to survive, the henchmen will be cleared away much faster than if the henchmen had been targetted separately. This is NOT true with any other MM.

It should probably be pointed out, though, that if the MM has Weave, Combat Jumping, or any other personal Defense, Bodyguard will actually make it protect his henchmen, as well, as long as the MM is the target. So there is both a good and a bad side to this imbalance.

The issue of Resistance being bypassed is a different issue, and in my opinion, much worse. However, I do not believe _Castle_ has sufficiently confirmed that Resistance IS bypassed, all he said is that the MM's Resistance doesn't reduce the henchmen's portion of the damage. He did not say that the henchmen don't get THEIR Resistance to the damage they take. (Which sounds logical)

If this is true, then Shadow Fall, which is the only power to which this applies, should be fine since it provides the exact same Defense to the MM as to his henchmen. If it is NOT true, and the henchmen Resists can be bypassed, then we have the exact opposite problem, as it is the henchmen, not the MM who are not being adequately protected. Although again personal Resistance such as Tough on the MM will not effect the henchmen, as you would expect.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Any talk of changing the permanent part of Patrons or something?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's really not as simple as "let's let them respec it!"

Since Patron sets are tied to Contacts you receive, you get the set of the Contact you choose. We'd need to add a bunch of technology to take away access to Contacts (something we don't do currently), to make sure you couldn't end up with multiple Patron Pools.

We have talked about it though, and are not through talking about it either.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't it be possible to just use the current Hero system, but tie which Power Sets you have to choose from to the Contact? Surely that's got to be easier to design a whole new way to access Powers that is outside of the training/respec system...

Putting it another way, can't you just make it so if you have done the missions for more than one Contact, you simply have more Sets to choose from when you respec? If you've only done one you have only one choice, while if you do all four, you can pick your first Power from a Set out of any of them, the way Hero Epics work right now? Or is that an oversimplification of how you get access to the Hero Pools?

You still can only pick powers from one Set, since that's the way it works for Heroes. But if you respec you can switch to any Patron you want, and you don't have to remove the Contacts since you're locked into the one you first chose (as a Hero would be) unless you respec.

Failing that, I guess the best alternative would be to allow you to do another Patron's missions to switch to him, but as you said, I don't know how you'd "do away" with the old Contact.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Can you tell us why certain powers (Lightning Rod, Chain Induction) won't be effected by Fury? Will they be just too uber with it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Lightning Rod does build Fury, we fixed that very recently. Not sure about Chain Induction though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, not sure what you mean here. Do you mean Lightning Rod will now EFFECT Fury, or Lightning Rod will be EFFECTED BY Fury? Because the OP was asking about the latter.

It sounds like you are saying Lightning Rod did not build Fury before, and now it will. But more people are concerned about Fury not boosting its damage.

[ QUOTE ]
And Lightning Rod gets my vote for Coolest Use of the Power System.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. I think most people underestimate exactly what it going on here, or think it's just a foe targetted attack. But it's a teleport followed by a PBAoE attack. Which if I'm guessing right is not possible. Instead you probably have a delayed reaction Location AoE that goes off at the same time you arrive. The way you chained together a bunch of different powers to make it look that way is probably pretty cool.

[ QUOTE ]
I think Forcefields should be changed to resist damage instead of def simply bc that makes more sense. FFs should not make you more evasive to attacks they should just repel damage

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately now that Sonic is here it's unlikely that will ever happen. That would essentially make FF and Sonic identical in terms of the defense they provide, making one or the other of them redundant.

OTOH, you can always take Sonic and say that your powers are actually force fields and not sound waves. (I created a version of my main as Sonic/Rad just to compare the two. And a Rad/Sonic Corruptor counterpart)

Personally, it makes no more sense to me that Sonic is Resistance than FF is Defense. I can see FF deflecting the attack and Sonic just slowing it down, and "dispersing" the energy, but only if you think of it that way. I'm not sure I can buy the idea of a "sonic barrier", and even if I do I'm not sure it wouldn't be every bit as impenetrable as a "force field".

In short, it's just an implementation, and I don't think the devs are going to work to hard to make it any more realistic than that. It's not about logic, it's about providing a gameplay element.

The truth is, I'd made that same mistake about thinking that Scrapper damage was 125%, not 112.5% I was using the wrong number for quite some time. So don't feel bad.

One correction, though, you compare the Brute's 75% (of Blaster damage) to the Scrapper's 112.5% (of Blaster damage) and conclude it does 66.7% of a Scrapper's damage, which is correct. However, in the same sentence you say a Tanker does 80% damage. 80% of a Blaster's damage, yes, but not of a Scrapper's damage, which is what you are comparing the Brute's 66.7% damage to.

A Tanker's damage is actually 71.1% of a Scrapper's damage, which is about what you'd expect considering it is about 5% more than a Brute's damage.

[ QUOTE ]
I haven't read all the pages of this thread, so please forgive me. Is the issue that you want a to-hit check made for the damage that would be applied to each henchman, for the damage that would be redirected via the bodyguarding feature? Hasn't such a check been made, in effect, on the attack directed at you, the MM.

I admit, though, that since you can't buff yourself, enemies could theoretically defeat your bots by attacking you directly, if you had them in bodyguard mode.

This is one of the reasons I think MMs need to be able to placate their foes, or pets need some sort of taunt.

Oh, well...

[/ QUOTE ]

Or, FF just needs to provide the same or closer to the same defense to himself that he can provide to the team. Problem solved.

Also, _Castle_ was not entirely clear on whether the henchmen get THEIR OWN resistance against the Bodyguard damage, but he clarified that they do not get yours. While any Defense you have against attack protects your Bodyguards as well, since damage that does not hit you does not hit them. So you could say in both cases that Resistance and Defense only partially protect you and your Bodyguards. (Resistance if it does bypass henchman Res, and Defense because it is lower than normal henchman Def, while debuffs and healing are equally effective)