Jade_Dragon

[ QUOTE ]
There are things that are in slow supply, but nothing that ever 'runs out'. There are no penalties for underpricing an item, in fact you are rewarded. The buyer can sniff around for bargains (as far as we know).

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, the thing is that the things that are in "slow supply" are likely to be the only things that are valuable. TOs, DOs and SOs aren't valuable. You can buy any number of them from the stores at any time. IOs are slightly valuable. The ones that can be crafted directly from the Universities can be made cheaply and in any numbers. So the only things that will be TRULY valuable are HOs and Recipies. Which will be in slow supply, particularly for the ONE specific type you are looking for.

Truthfully, the only thing I am really worried about is Salvage, and that's because it's likely to just be sold for the lowest price possible since it has no intrinsic value. Rare Salvage items might be usable to "milk" the market, but that would encourage camping. So I'm guessing the devs will make no Salvage that is that rare, requiring camping specific AV or whatever.

I suspect, though, that when you go to list an item, you aren't given the market value or whatever the recent 10 most transactions are, but an estimated value set by the devs. So unless a newbie actually thinks to check what the item is selling for, he'll probably go with what the recommended value is.

Plus, it seems to me this recommended value will be what will used to determine the 10% listing fee, NOT the amount you actually list it for. In fact, I think I'll PM Positron to confirm this.

At any rate, if a lower limit on your bid is set of about 1/2 of the estimated value the devs give, then the market value CAN'T go any lower than that. And since you'll have to shell out 10% of the estimated value no matter what you sell it for, you'll be encouraged to ask more to cover the fee.

[ QUOTE ]
As pointed out, by somebody somewhere, a given individual can only put 10 items up for sale. Since there are many, many different enhancements at many different levels, you'd need a lot of people to stop this. Each person putting up very specific items to make sure they're all covered. It seems like a heck of a lot of work. And even then, it takes only 1 open spot to get through. Oh look, nobody has a lvl 37 hold duration TO up, I can use that to transfer since I happen to have one. About 3 minutes time of vulnerability exists at that point.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hm. I didn't interpret what he said this way. Oh well, if I misunderstood, sorry about that.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Theoretically, person (or persons, more likely) could assume total control of your market by flooding your market with enhancements of all stripes and types and levels all set to sell at one influence each, ensuring they're always going to be bought first.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only problem is, he's risking someone ELSE will come along and offer only 2 inf for what he's buying, at which time he gets nothing. By setting a sell price, he's setting the MINIMUM he's willing to take. If that minimum is 1 inf, then there's the possibility you'll get that. I suspect about half the "normal" price is the minimum you'll want to list for, if you want to speed up the sale.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, the point isn't that he'd rake in the cash, it's that he'd prevent somebody else from doing this. It's a potential avenue for grief, by cutting everyone -else- out of the process by producing a constant stream of rediculously cheap enhancements.

It's a hypothetical, I'll grant you.

[/ QUOTE ]

But HOW does he do this? How does he produce this "constant stream of ridiculously cheap Enhancements"? Does he go to the store and buy them? He'll run out of inf if he sells them for less than they're worth. Does he earn them? That's a finite number, and eventually he'll run out. Does he make them? Where does all the salvage come from?

I'm guessing that most of the sales are going to be IOs and HOs. Maybe some SOs. DOs maybe, it depends on whether you want the money now or want to wait, and TOs, you probably won't see them at all. SOs are easily enough picked up at the stores, so most people are going to want to pay less than that, so at most you will see those picked up from MOBs resold at auction. No one will be buying SOs and reselling them, obviously. HOs will be hard enough to get that they will be their own economy.

So the "big ticket items" will be IOs. Even if you can produce those fairly cheap with easy to find Salvage, you still need a Recipe to create them. And those Recipes are going to be like HOs, they will be hard to find and valuable. So likely you won't be earning a bunch of them and churning them out 10 at a time. The Recipes that are commonly available, at the Libraries, anyone can build, and they're free (if you have the Salvage) so why in the world would anyone pay for them?

That leaves the rare dropped Recipes, which you will most likely have to BUY, from the auction house, and assemble. Then you will resell them. If you ask too little for the IOs, and "try to sell them on the cheap", you'll run out of money for Recipes. So again, you can't produce a "constant stream".

The only thing you could potentially "give away" for practically nothing is the Salvage, which I'm guessing will turn out to be the majority of the auction trade. But if the trade volume is that high, then who cares if someone undercuts you for a few dozen items? Again, like with SOs, eventually he will run out, and then you'll be able to sell your orders at YOUR price.

And remember also that there is no levelling curve in this game. You don't have to grind for six months and turn out thousands of useless junk items just to get to the level where you can start making a profit. You can sell anything, right now, and so can anyone ELSE in the game. So if you don't offer a reasonable price, you will be unable to compete. You can't sink a bunch of money on "I'm just levelling" or gouge the market because you have a monopoly. (Well, you can have a monopoly, but because you have something unique, not because you spent some time grinding)

[ QUOTE ]
Here's an interesting question... if the lowest seller always gets the sale, who gets the purchase with competing "Looking to buy" orders? The one with the highest price?

Example: Player A and Player B both have a LTB order for a piece of rare salvage; A will pay 1 Minf, B will pay 2 Minf.

Player C puts the piece of rare salvage up with a price of 500k. Who gets to purchase the item? I'm thinking it will be B.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, that was exactly something that I was meaning to add, and I forgot all about it. It can be important. Because you CAN intercept a buy order by putting a buy order of your own up for a very low value. You don't get the 5 mil inf, but you might get an Enhancement you can sell for a suitable profit.

One way to check this potential for griefing is to make sure there is no buy order outstanding, by either making a sell order to check, or checking the buy order list, if there is one.

My guess, though, is that just as the lowest sell offer gets the sale (and the money offered, not just what he's willing to take) because he "wants to sell faster", the highest buy offer will be processed, because he "wants to buy faster". So in fact the sale will ALWAYS go from the highest buy offer to the lowest sell offer, transferring the most inf possible.

It definately seems like a "buyer beware" market instead of a "seller beware" market. But that's fairly standard with MMORPGs that want to encourage crafters.

[ QUOTE ]
[my original reply to Positron's post and additional text deleted]

And as people start selling stuff for 1inf, or very low prices, people will start biding low prices. Keeping the prices down.

[/ QUOTE ]

The 1 inf offer will ONLY be there long enough to complete the inf transfer. I'm not talking about posting a value like that for a long term sell order. It's ONLY meant to get around the issue Positron talked about, that someone else can intercept your transfer if they happen to be selling the same item at the same time.

By bidding low, you make sure you're the next one in the queue. And you WANT to be the next one in the queue, since you're about to step up and take it out of the queue.

I actually stated above that for long term orders, offering 1 inf would be a bad idea, for the very reasons you confirm.

[ QUOTE ]
Not an inf transfer but a much more secure way to transer something to yourself/transfer inf.

You can put in a buy request and the first item of that type will get bought by you at the price you specify. So get both alts to the consignment house. Log in with alt A1 and check the system to see if the item you want to use is listed. Ie a level 7 flight TO. You see none listed. So log A1 out and login with A2, this alt then enters a buy order for a level 7 flight TO for 10,000,000. Logout A2 and login A1 now A1 puts the level 7 flight TO into the system for say 50 inf and instantly gets the sale for 10,000,000. Voila your done with much less chance of random intercept.

[/ QUOTE ]

It would be possible to intercept this by putting in a sell order to try and catch the buy order. Of course, the best way to check for this potential trap is to put in the buy order first for a more reasonable price and see if anyone bites. If they don't, then there isn't a sell order in the queue. Of course, you can also probably look and see)

Buy orders might be listed, though, but if they follow the same rules as sell orders, they won't list how MUCH they are willing to buy for. So you'll have to fill the order to find out what they were going to pay you. This should make it hard to intercept transfers.

I suppose the ultimate griefer attempt would be to put an item up for an insanely high amount, pretty much what Positron originally posted. THAT order will never be filled, because it's asking too much. So when you put up your order it will be involuntarily completed, and you lose the money. You can counter than by just checking for sell orders, though.

[ QUOTE ]
Theoretically, person (or persons, more likely) could assume total control of your market by flooding your market with enhancements of all stripes and types and levels all set to sell at one influence each, ensuring they're always going to be bought first.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only problem is, he's risking someone ELSE will come along and offer only 2 inf for what he's buying, at which time he gets nothing. By setting a sell price, he's setting the MINIMUM he's willing to take. If that minimum is 1 inf, then there's the possibility you'll get that. I suspect about half the "normal" price is the minimum you'll want to list for, if you want to speed up the sale.

The cross server influence transfer, though, shouldn't be around long enough to be "caught" in this way, though. (And you can check by having your buyer offer 2 inf for something right before your seller offers 1 for it. That should clear any sell orders that low)

[ QUOTE ]
Player A1 puts up a Level 12 TO for 5,000,000 inf.

Player B1 puts up the same Level 12 TO for 1,000 inf.

Player A2 (trying to transfer funds) offers to buy that level 12 TO for 5,000,000 inf.

Since player B1 wants less, and is obviously trying to move his items faster, his "for sale" is processed first, so he ends up with 5,000,000 inf (minus fees).

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait a minute. If you don't see the sell price offered by the people who put up the items that you want to buy, then why would Person A1 offer such a high value? According to the consignment system he gets what is OFFERED, not what is ASKED, so he might as well do this:

Player A1 puts up a Level 12 TO for 1 inf.

Player B1 puts up the same Level 12 TO for 1000 Inf.

Player A2 offers to buy a Level 12 TO, for 5,000,000 Inf. Player A1 gets the sale, since he asked the least amount.

Now, it's still possible that Player B2 can come along and buy Player A1's TO for 2 inf, before Player A2 can. But since he cannot SEE that the offered sell price is only 1 inf, why would he offer such a low price? There is still a potential for griefing (he could put in a request for a Level 12 TO for 2 inf and see if anyone takes it) but it's buyer side, not seller side.

Talk about this subject has been tossed around for some time, but it's nice to get some concrete numbers. I think what I find most interesting is the relationship between the numbers 45%, for the HP Percentage, and 25%, for the boost. I would expect that THAT is where Defiance is expected to hover, by the devs. That it doesn't, in actual practice, is potentially the flaw.

I also find it interesting that the 50% mark seems to be about 12.5%, which would match the bonus that Scrappers get to their base damage. (actually, it's 17.67%, which is a little higher than I expected) It's important to remember that Scrapper Criticals really only are about 5-15% more damage, and so is their 12.5% boost to base damage, but they get both boosts. (Which would total to about 25%...)

At least knowing that having your HP hovering around 70-60% is giving you a 5-10% bonus is better than thinking you're getting no bonus at all. I have often felt that my damage was a little higher than in the old days, but not so much that I would call it significant.

This issue about the "sliver of health", however, may actually be based on the fact that Blaster damage, at 100%, is considered to be the standard. Since foes are balanced to that standard, it would hold to reason that Blasters are balanced to JUST BARELY kill them. Adding an additional 5-10% on top of that may turn the tide on leaving those "slivers of health". Again, Scrappers' 12.5% bonus may also help them avoid that problem.

(12.5% is actually at 55% HP. And as I said, from about 65-70% the damage is around 5%. So I don't think a 5% floor would be asking too much. 75% HP actually gives a pretty interesting result, the recognizable 3.125%, which shows up a lot in Defense numbers)

Personally, I'm not really sure how this works. I have heard that if you build up before you drop the item, it does extra damage. And I have heard that it is not actually the time you drop the item that is important, but that it does damage within the duration of the build up. So, for instance, you might build up and drop a DoT item, and it would do the boosted damage until Build Up wore off and then go back to the regular damage.

If the latter is true, then you need to time your Build Up to just before your foe sets off the Trip Mine. Or just before the Time Bomb goes off. For completeness you might test both. (When you drop it, and when it goes off)

Then again, maybe you already did.

[ QUOTE ]
And, as far as knock* goes, I'd much rather slot to increase the CHANCE of it happening!

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed, although that may be part of the Invention system. (If you can slot an attack to add a chance of disorient, for instance, what if the attack already HAS disorient? It's possible that will allow you to increase the chance)

And I gotta add that I don't really mind Enhancements that don't do jack, as long as they aren't CONFUSING about what they do. Recharge was removed from MM Henchmen, for instance, because the player might be confused over whether it meant recharge on summoning the henchman, or recharge of the henchman's attacks.

Even if an effect is really, really low, there might be some players who would want to slot it. Unless there was some reason they might not REALIZE that the slotting would be particularly weak.

[ QUOTE ]
Some of the comments i've read suggest that slotting Knockup powers with Knockback Enhancements now has no effect, that the enemies don't go any higher or take longer to get back up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I can understand slotting powers such as Levitate or Lift with Knockback Enhancers, as they are partially control powers to start with, and have a high value for the Knock Up height. So slotting them would have an effect, minor, perhaps, but no more minor than slotting Def on CJ or the 4-6th SO of the same type.

I'm not sure why the devs would think slotting Jump Kick for greater Knock Up distance would serve a useful purpose, however. Air Superiority still keeps a foe knocked down 80% longer, just because it is sure to knock down, and Jump Kick is only 20%. So the duration of the effect would have to be extended a LOT by Enhancements, and I didn't see that in my testing.

In short, I don't think Knock Up is a problem, I just don't think that it's a useful effect for Jump Kick specifically. OTOH, if slotting Knock Up with Knockback caused the foe to fly away from you at an arc, I suppose that would be cool, too.

I want to specifically say that I do not like the change in Jump Kick from knockback to knockup. While I can understand meleers not wanting to use the power when it knocks foes back, the solution to me would be to change Jump Kick to Knock DOWN, with Knock BACK when slotted, just like the changes that were made to Melee powers.

Why Jump Kick was changed to Knock UP, with slotting increasing the height of the knock up, I don't know. Air Superiority is already the knockdown power of choice, and thus for damage mitigation, keeping foes off their feet, Air Superiority is still the best choice. I used Jump Kick on my Blaster to knock foes out of melee, as that was the one thing Jump Kick had that Air Superiority didn't. So rather than giving me a reason to pick Jump Kick, I might as well now pick Air Superiority and at least have a 100% chance of knockdown.

I read your other guide and followed the link to this update. I must agree with most of the posts here, it is a great guide, although you don't QUITE succeed at not being condenscending. But you do get your point across, while making it clear what sets CoH apart from WoW and the other MMORPGs like it.

I think you miss a very important point, however, that I hope you'll include in your next update. Because CoH has something else that exemplifies this paradigm shift in the MMORPG. That is, Sidekicking, which has been in this game since the day it was first designed. Exemplaring (and of course the villain counterparts of Lackeying and Malafactoring) provide essentially the same function, but the whole concept really started with Sidekicking. And it made the game what it is today.

Sidekicking says that you, with your level 50, and me, with my level 1, can actually TEAM UP! I don't have to wait until I am level 50 to go on missions and participate in the game as a teammate with you, I can do it right now, even though I may be somewhat weak. As I gain in levels, though, the gulf between us will close, and in fact players with 10 or even 5 levels between them can team up, when in most MMORPGs a gap of 5 levels between teammates will often get them killed.

IMHO, this is the reason why most MMORPGs follow the "grind" to get to the "endgame", and then everyone starts playing the game. You can't TEAM with anyone until you get to the endgame. Everyone's a different level than you, and even the people coming up the ranks are likely to be more than 5 levels separated from you. You may be able to start a group of characters with some friends and then work together to "grind up" to the end, but if you miss a few days and start to fall behind, you have no choice but to give up. You are forced to "keep up", just to keep grouping with the teammates that you have managed to find.

Once everyone gets to 50, though, the playing field is level, you cannot progress any further, and everyone can team. You can go on raids and get the "uber loot" that progress your character further, but as you say, that is even MORE of a grind and takes even LONGER than getting to 50. And the advantages become less, instead of being ten times more powerful at level 50 than you were at level 45, and taking on with ease MOBs that would have slaughtered you before, you are not just a LITTLE BIT more powerful than the other PvP opponent who has the suit of armor that is just one step lower than yours.

CoH avoids this issue neatly by allowing anyone to group with anyone at any time, regardless of level. There are still level differences to keep solo players and groups separated, but grouping at the lower levels, and being able to stay with the SAME group for long periods of time at the lower levels is much, much easier. So there's no reason to try and even out levels.

Of course, that's an oversimplification, and there are still advantages to grouping within your level, but really, "levelling" is what CoH is all about. Really, that's all your doing in the end game, you are developing your character, but in a way that doesn't include levels. And to be honest, this is all pen and paper RPGing's fault. No one in an pen and paper RPG "grinds" to level 50 so they can start the "endgame" because typically in a pen and paper game you all start playing at the same time, and you can "tweak" a fellow player's stats if he misses a few games and falls behind. Sidekicking is just CoH's way of doing that in the computer gaming world.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The only problem I have with this post is that you have essentially explained why the answer to the question "Is power X necessary?" should be "Yes" for the most common powers used in that question as X.

This effectively nullifies the point of the post as there is then no need to ask the question in the first place. The answer is always "Yes",

[/ QUOTE ]

Er, sorry, I can't figure out how you got that out of what I wrote. On the contrary, I said quite explicitly that it's legitimate to answer "No," or disagree with other posters' "yes" responses.

Also, in case you missed it, I talked about such questions in the context of particular builds. Not at all something to which the answer is always "yes."

[/ QUOTE ]

I missed that. Perhaps I did misunderstand. However, you said yourself, "[there are] many powers regarding which the answer will be 'yes'". I am assuming because of the content of your argument that for the most likely powers about which the question would be asked, you believe the answer would be "yes".

More specifically, the most common powers about which the question is asked, by your own admission, are Hasten and Stamina. I would assume that you believe those to fit into the category of those for whom the answer should be "yes". There may be exceptions in the case of certain specific builds, and it may be possible to get around the lack of Stamina should you choose not to take it, despite a loss of effectiveness, but you dismiss those exceptions when the question is asked in a general sense.

I should also add that it is NOT always irrelevant and obvious to point out "You can do whatever you want", as in many cases doing whatever you want may not lead to the results you want. To use your own example, it is a totally different thing to say that "some people find the world to be flat", compared to "some people find that snipes are not effective". That is an invalid comparison. If you actually go and measure the world, you will actually find it is not flat. On the other hand, if you are terrible with sniper attacks, and cannot master subtle strategies such as timing the build up to correspond to the space between foes' shots, then measuring the number of times you are successful with a sniper shot will support your subjective belief that snipes are not effective for you.

Since this is a learned skill and not one that is natural to all players, and a certain amount of natural talent is involved, I don't think you can truthfully say that sniper attacks are always going to be effective, across all players of the game. And what a player finds "fun" is likely to be even more subjective.

An excellent guide. I don't have anything to add, merely to be more specific about two points, in case they weren't clear enough in your guide:

1) Pick your attacks first, at levels 2 and 4. For Tankers and Defenders, this means picking your Secondaries first. Your second attack doubles the amount of damage you do, though, and the third triples it. You can always go back and fill in your group oriented powers from 6 on, having good solid attacks early on will be what gets you to 6.

2) Slot as much Accuracy in your attacks as you can, especially if missing bothers you. Throw away or sell the Damage Enhancements, especially the ones you get in the tutorial. And if you're patient, you can just slot Accuracy Enhancements as you earn them. You don't have to slot non-attacks, although heals or other such things that need to hit should be Accuracy slotted too.

Note that you can always respec, so if you don't like the attacks you took early on you can always respec out of them later.

The only problem I have with this post is that you have essentially explained why the answer to the question "Is power X necessary?" should be "Yes" for the most common powers used in that question as X.

This effectively nullifies the point of the post as there is then no need to ask the question in the first place. The answer is always "Yes", therefore anyone asking the question has either been mislead, or he is confused. It should not have even been asked.

It's my understanding that usually the reason readers of the board post that particular question is that they wish to discuss whether or not the answer may NOT be "Yes", and under what conditions that may be. That is, one would not ask "Is power X necessary?" unless someone had already told you that power X was necessary. Otherwise, the question would be, "What powers are necessary?"

Thus, it has always been my belief that the proper answer to the question is "Yes... and no." Yes, power X does provide the greatest amount of effectiveness and "fun", however if you are considering not taking it, you may, with the understanding that it will be less effective and "fun".

I also consider it a good idea, under such circumstances, to offer alternative strategies which could be used if you do not take the power. It's not really specifically an answer to the question, but it is informative, and better than just debating the answer to a question that we already know the answer to.

[ QUOTE ]
As I was reading the section on motivation, there was one back story that I saw was missing -- Family history or Mentoring. The prime example is the Phantom. The "Ghost Who Walks" has been through how many generations of fathers and sons? A person might inherit the role as the protector of a group of people or a special item. As seen in the "Mask of Zorro" movie, the mantle of the hero can be passed from one person to the next, as the next is trained to take the place of the prior.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've seen that brought up before, and you're right, I agree with it. I was trying to come from the official descriptions, though (just because I disagree with one part of it doesn't mean I disagree with all of it) and they seem to suggest more direct motivations. Certainly family, loyalty, and tradition are good driving forces, though, and enough to motivate a person to become more than he is.

The villain version of the description, in fact, hints a little at Mob or "Family" connections, implying that you beat the money and influence you needed out of others, or otherwise coerced them.

Really, if there's one thing the Natural Origin and the Natural Concept share, it's this motivation, to strive for perfection. The Phantom doesn't HAVE to be a superhero, but he chooses to be one because it's important to him. That he doesn't have powers is irrelevant, although that certainly does make him worthy of respect, that he's willing to stick to his beliefs even WITHOUT extraordinary abilities. Which is why a lot of players would like to emulate him.

[ QUOTE ]
No, enantiodromos gave paralell descriptions of power suits and 'port gadgets to try and show the distinction by size-of-gadget was shallow. He has repeatedly explained the fact that strong natural concept characters, unlike some other kinds of character concepts, are *defined* by not having superhuman powers, and so are critically sensitive to dilution with exotic science powers like teleportation and suits-powered-by-energy-creating-circuits.

And BTW, I also have a different view of the commonality of teleportation in Paragon. As you yourself said, people don't pop to the store for a gallon of milk-- indeed there's no reason to believe anybody's ever teleporting except in extremely rare emergencies (BTW, much like the frequency with which an archer can draw another five arrows to shoot, the frequency of life-saving trips to the hospital, in-game, is understood to be way exaggerated.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I can agree with this in principle. However, in PRACTICE of playing a natural concept character to level 32, I can tell you that after a while, no travel powers gets frustrating. Really frustrating. So the question becomes not "does this Power fit my concept", but "am I so wedded to my concept that I cannot allow myself to come up with an explanation that I can make fit it".

Super Jump is probably the easiest travel power to explain via use of gadgets, while Flying with a jetpack is second, although that limits you to temporary powers. It is notable, however, that so many jetpacks and jump packs are now available in CoV, and my skill-based characters in those games definately appreciate them. Neither is really a perfect solution, and I guess my thought is that Teleport is actually BETTER that those two since there is nothing in the graphic that invalidates the use of a hand held device. You can imagine using a control to activate Teleport easier than you can imagine jump boots or a jetpack when there is none.

However, this may change with the addition of jetpacks which was discussed by Positron. I don't know in what way they will become an option, but this may make Flying MUCH more compatible with a skill-based concept. In my own case, however, Bloodwolf may remain without travel powers simply because I used his 4 Pool choices for other things.

[ QUOTE ]
Off-the-shelf (and possibly modified though not by superscientists) technology is what's proper to natural concept characters. Teleportation isn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who's to say what's "off the shelf"? What if I can walk into Image, Inc. and buy a jetpack? What if I can buy a personal teleporter?

The truth is, what we are really dealing with here is not the effect of the Powers, and whether they fit concept, but the appearance. Aid Self is a great skill-based power because you pull out a little device and heal yourself. Transfusion is a little harder to excuse, because there is no such device. It's essentially the same power, but because of appearance, one is more suited to concept than another. Which makes perfect sense, because concept often comes back to appearance. I skipped X-Ray Beam on my Defender because his power just doesn't come out of his eyes. That's concept.

As I mentioned above, maybe a jetpack graphic will help with this. Then if you don't think Teleport fits concept, then you don't have to take it. It is really hard to get around without travel powers, though, and frankly, there COULD be travel powers that are skill-based, like swing lines and vehicles, but there aren't. Batman doesn't run everywhere, he uses the Batmobile, but YOU can't. Because that power's not available.

[ QUOTE ]
Nope. I've never heard of this. When the game went to the shelf, the manual that came with it had an origin that represented the natural concept as I define it here, explicitly was tied to ordinary human limitations. I have quoted it in this thread once already.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, I wish that the devs had never used that phrase. It is confusing, and I'm sure you're not the only person who was led to that conclusion, that the Natural Origin represented the natural concept. The devs themselves were probably thinking Superior Human when they wrote it. That doesn't change the fact, though, that the Natural Origin has access to powers like Flying, Fire Blast, and Super Strength, which could be described as "super" powers. Thus, the very gameplay contradicts the description.

Since you DON'T remember the Superior Human origin, it isn't correct to say that, at least in your memory, CoH once had an Origin pertaining to it. The Natural Origin, whatever the description, has always included the possibility of other concepts besides the ordinary human. That's all I'm saying.

[ QUOTE ]
You clearly don't give a whit about the natural concept charcter (though you "appreciate" that its distinct), because you're posting at length about the natural origin, helping to obfuscate the thing I'm trying to clarify. The natural origin, as you admit you know, is not at all the subject of this guide. Please quit trying to undermine my guide?

[/ QUOTE ]

In fact, I have two characters that are "skill-based", to use my terminology, Bloodwolf, an MA/SR Scrapper, and Joe Everyman, an Illusions/Kinetics Controller whose powers are explained by disguise, sleight of hand, and misdirection. So yes, I do give a whit about the natural concept character. I am not undermining your guide, I am merely adding on a commentary about the Natural Origin, in response to some of the replies that have dealt with the ORIGIN, and not the CONCEPT. Consider it an afterthought, an Appendix, if you will.

It is not my intention to attack your suggestions or invalidate them in any way. If you wish to percieve my posts as an attack, I am sorry, but I assure you that's not the case.

[ QUOTE ]
It's already clear that the guide refers to natural concept characters, not natural origins. I make that distinction in the introduction, and build on that idea very carefully and explicitly start to finish. It's completely self-evident. I think you must have some other objection you want to make, but I suspect it's also wide of the subject of this guide.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I said in my first post in this thread, you do make a point to differentiate the "concept" from the "origin". Which, again, I greatly appreciate. However, I've noticed that despite that excellent beginning, you still seem to be insisting that even though you are CALLING it something different, this is still the RIGHT definition of "Natural", and everything else is wrong. "The devs found a loophole", you seem to be saying, "and I accept that, but this is what they really MEANT."

The issue here is that "Superior Human" is NOT "Natural". The two do not equate to each other. "Superior Human" was the name of the "non-super" Origin back when Origins determined your powers, and I'm quite sure that's what you are referring to. It's reasonable to assume that "Superior Human" turned into "Natural" when the Archetype system was introduced, and I'm sure that's what you're basing this entire position on. I can understand that.

However, the Origins under the old system should NOT be regarded as exactly the same as the Origins under the new system because, quite simply, Origins cannot determine what your powers are. For a Mutant or a Magic or a Cybernetics that is not really a big deal, because those Origins weren't really defined all that well anyway. Powers were divided into two categories, "powers" and "skills", and you got a separate mix of powers and skills, with different maximum levels in each depending on your choice of Origin.

Superior Human, though, was the only one that limited you to ONLY skills, (or maybe you could take one or two "super" powers, the details aren't really important) all the others let you take any power or skill, only limiting how far you could take them. The limiting factor was effectively random, the devs picked something that sounded good, but honestly, they were just making it up, and eventually they realized that no matter how much they tweaked it, the players wouldn't innately understand what was supposed to be strong and what was supposed to be weak anyway.

Thus, the Archetype system was created, but while all the other Origins could still fit within it (really, all the Archetype system did was shift the limitations so they were based on your role, not your "race") Superior Human didn't fit any more. Superior Human wasn't supposed to have any "super" powers, but no Origin could limit you in what Powers you could take.

Complicating matters is that they dropped the distinction between powers and skills, and thus you could now have the same Power representing two different abilities from the original system. Martial Arts, for instance, is obviously a skill set, but it is game-wise the same as a Power Set. Even though Martial Arts is a skill and Super Strength is a power, the two sets have similar Powers and are used identically. What used to be a major component of the old Origin system is now gone.

What you're basically doing, with this thread, is establishing which of the Power Sets are "powers", which are "skills", and which can be either, depending on how you interpret it. So your "Natural Concept" can only take "skills" and not "powers". But again, Origin cannot determine which Powers you can take. So it is innate to the concept of Origin in this system that Natural CANNOT tell you which Power Sets you can and cannot take.

If a Power Set does not fit within the concept of Natural, then that's not Natural, the Origin. It's Natural, the Concept. If your definition of Natural is the definition of Natural, the Concept, then it's not right for Natural, the Origin. The definition of Natural, the Origin MUST include the ability to pick any power you want, including throwing fireballs, flying, and all that. That's why I've said from the start that using the phrase, "The Natural hero is not 'super' at all" was a huge mistake. It was a poor choice of words, and should never have even gotten out of the design stage like that.

Now, you can SAY that your Natural hero has no "super" powers, that goes without saying. But you can also SAY your Technology hero is a cyborg, like the old Cybernetics Origin. That doesnt mean a Technology hero HAS to be a cyborg. So Natural is actually a larger set than Superior Human, Superior Human is a subset of it. It includes those that fit that definition, but is not composed soley of them.

Personally, I feel that there are three distinctive traits of the Natural Origin that should be used to define it. The "official" definition can be used in a general sense, but I don't think it should be used to excluse anyone.

1) The Natural Origin is the only one that can use both technological devices AND magic. (in the form of Gadget and Relic Enhancements) This tells me that the Natural character will use whatever he can get his hands on to get an edge.

2) While the official description includes that phrase about no "super" powers, it also extensively talks about the Natural's motivations, his drive for perfection, and a tragedy that may shape his character. (or in the case of villains, a desire for money)

3) The Natural gets the majority of his powers from training. This is both from the official description and the Enhancement. Combined with the other two, we get an image of a disciplined, determined individual that, importantly, wanted to be a hero (or villain) from the start.

To me, what is important about the Natural is not what Powers he has, but what drives him to seek out that Power in the first place. Is it all external to him, or does he wield it with skill because he has trained with it? If you had a technological weapon, for instance, that aimed for you, boosted your speed, and warned you about incoming attacks, then I would call that technology. If the weapon were just a particularly hi-tech gun, however, and it is your years of training that enables you to wield it well, not to mention leap with remarkable agility and dodge attacks, then I would call that Natural.

The difference between Natural and all other Origins is that with the other Origins it's an accident, or luck. You "happened upon" this great power. The Natural, however, SEEKS OUT the power, he is driven by his past to be more than what he is. The villain version of the description even states that specifically, "Unlike the other Origins, you do not derive your abilities from ... esoteric means. No, you came by your powers the good old fashioned way: through hard work ..."

[ QUOTE ]
While in our world, it may be exotic science for Teleportation, but it surely does not seem that way in the CoX world. Remember, Dimension traveling -started- in 1988. Now, in the present day of CoX all Hero's have access to Portal Corps, even sidekicks at any level have that same access.

To put something as 'simple' as teleportation as Nonviable just seems extreme to me when we are looking at the world of CoX.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to agree. Teleporting is as common in Paragon City as driving a car or using the Internet is here in the "real world". If there were a public teleportation system, I wouldn't say using it would any more disqualify you as a Natural Concept than taking the bus or riding the tram would disquality you as a Natural Concept.

The bigger issue is that the Medical Transporter System is PRESUMABLY for emergency use only, and thus can't be used by just anyone who feels like popping to the store for a quart of milk. In such a case, there could be two explanations for an otherwise ordinary Natural Concept hero using it: 1) He has hacked into the system, using his natural skill with computers or 2) Paragon City actually provides "passes" to heroes of a high enough Security Level, for the right price.

The former implies that your character is a master hacker, which doesn't disqualify the Natural Concept but may not fit your SPECIFIC concept. The latter, OTOH, requires a pretty big assumption, but does imply that you could get it EVENTUALLY, if you put it off long enough. After all, Manticore supposedly has permission to use the teleport system, so while it's apparently very rare, it does happen. So you could say that your character eventually "earns the right" to use the Teleport System since he has no other super travel power.

Enantiodromos's objection is that in order to be able to Teleport, you have to understand how teleportation works, and thus build a device to let you do that. But you don't have to understand how the Medical Teleporters work, all you have to understand is how the INTERFACE to the Medical Teleporters work. So you can reprogram them to send you where you want. Just like you don't have to understand exactly how internal combustion works to drive a car.

The problem is that what we are dealing with here is a simulation. It goes without saying that game designers can't create a real sword, they have to create a simulation of a sword, using their knowledge of real world swords, and a certain amount of guesswork. In real life if you have a sword, it's a sword, and will be as useful as a sword can be. If the devs get the numbers wrong, though, the sword could be a nerf bat on the one hand, or a Vorpal Sword of One Hit Slaying on the other.

If you take the Vorpal Sword of One Hit Slaying and tone it down to what an actual sword could do, then it can FEEL like a nerf bat because it's not what you're used to. But that doesn't necessarily make it useless. Certainly a sword, even compared to a Vorpal Sword of One Hit Slaying is not useless.

The assumption is that any reduction whatsoever is wrong, and that it makes whatever it is useless. But that assumes that everything was perfect to start with.

[ QUOTE ]
We've got a nice tweak to the Domination ability coming down the pipe (it will crank up your Mez resistance while it is active), and are currently data-mining PvP to see what effect our last set of tweaks to the AT have had.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lemme just say, "Whoo!" I think that alone will be a big help.

Personally, I have found that the Dominator feels like it's progressing slowly, but it isn't. I could have sworn over the last five levels I played, I had just hit some sort of wall. I was dying every five seconds, and was absolutely sure I was progessing half as fast as my other characters.

Yet, when I actually stopped and checked with an NPC about my playing time, I found I had taken exactly the same number of hours as my other characters, no more, no less. So either all the deaths I'd managed to rack up either didn't count for that much, since XP debt is so much lower now, or like a Blaster, I was levelling so fast that the debt compensated for it.

The bigger issue is whether the PERCEPTION that the Dominator is progressing slowly is more important than the actual rate. If people won't play the AT because they don't bother to check whether they are actually levelling slower or not, it doesn't matter if it's only perception. It may be better for the AT to have it level slower overall, if that means it can be made to die less often.

And I still say I want to see melee damage raised to 80%. I just don't like seeing that 75% damage so common to all villains. Mix it up a bit...

[ QUOTE ]
Why is it okay in the Sacred Church of Risk vs. Reward to gain XP by flying through relatively safe zones to click on Contacts or Phone Booths, but not stealthing through an instance full of potential hostiles to click on glowies? Where does that make any sense?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because you do not get XP for clicking on Contacts. (Well, you do for Phone Booths, but there isn't anyone who can't avoid combat doing those) You get XP for doing the mission the Contact sends you to do. So there is STILL a risk involved.

The main thing is, though, this has NOTHING to do with the topic. This thread is about whether or not stealth suppression leaves you with some of the stealth functionality, or none of it. The OP misinterpreted the way the Prima Guide was read, and _Castle_ clarified that; when stealth is suppressed, you lose 1/2 of the defense, not all of it. So you are still getting some benefit for the End cost, albeit small.