Issen

Counter? I disagreed, then provided evidence based on what information we know. That's a pretty good counter right there. But that's fine.

If this were the case they would've removed BaB instead though

Uhhh, no. Deus ex machina means he got a magic "I win button" that came out of thin air to solve his problems.

The second obelisk the players knew existed. The magic ritual to drain Statesman was revealed in that arc. Since the arc's intent was to show us HOW Statesman died, it's not a Deus Ex Machina.

Walking into a trap you know exists because you're confident the trap is one you can handle isn't arrogance. Also, there's no signs of detachments. SSA4 clearly stated he's upset. But he's not allowing his anger or sadness to blind his sense of princples. Hence, no detachment.

I like how both of you have to take the worst possible interpretation. Statesman was neither stupid, or detached or arrogant. It's amusing that you insist on it as well.

However, you're both right, but only in the most basic sense:

Yes, Statesman was having an off day. His daughter was dead. However, his own dialogue when he goes to confront Wade shows that he wasn't being overly aggressive. If anything, he was in full control of his faculties. He fully intended to take Wade in and put him in jail. So despite whatever distress he was in over his daughter, he wasn't going to compromise on his morals.

However, if Statesman did indeed know that there was a trap in place, he had NO way of knowing what sort of trap it was. Remember, not only was Wade utilizing a second power-stealing obelisk, which only the PLAYER (and NOT the characters) know existed in the first place, he was using a long-lost ritual that Sister Arlia used against both Imperious and Romulus, a ritual NO-ONE knew existed until this SSA.

Statesman likely had every reason to believe Wade thought he had an ace up his sleeve. But honestly, even given the number of times Statesman has been captured or sealed (all of which were only temporary) none of them resulted in the loss of his power or immortality. So if Statesman knew (which is a distinct possibility, he's a centuries-old hero, he shouldn't NOT know), there was no reason for him to believe that Wade's trap would work, only that Wade would -think- his trap would work.

Again, the player has the advantage of being an omniscient member of the audience, thus, it's perfectly clear to us that it's a trap, and most of us guessed well in advance what the trap would be. But only because there was information given to us in a cutscene, with no way for the character to acquire that information.

Sadly, no-one in the CoH lore has Deadpool's level of meta-gaming. And thank god for that.

Well, considering there's more than enough people (myself included) who will run the content? I don't think the loss of the people in this thread who state they hate it will make any significant impact.

...Does the fact that if the villains do nothing and let Cole overrrun Primal Earth they'll either be enslaved or just outright killed ever register? At all? Or the villains actually not care enough about their own well-being?

Hilariously, in the arc? He didn't run off to punch Wade's face in, or kill him. He states that he's going to put Wade in jail until he rots and that's exactly what he deserves.

When asked if he has any last words? He tells Wade that villainy like Wade's never wins for long.

He's -exactly- what I was expecting. He stayed true to his ideals even in the face of the overwhelming loss and anger he felt.

What plotholes?! People keep abusing this word!

I don't think she wants that at all. We're all aware that the devs will improve DA's rewards. What GG and the devs want is for any improvement to be very gradual. To make sure that any increase is careful marked and monitored. After all, they started low because it's much easier to add more than take away.

They don't want to accidentally make a huge leap and wind up in a situation where they have to nerf instead of buff.

There's Dark Astoria.

But Eva apparently thinks that's full of "holes" and "inconsistencies" as well.

I'll just sum up the whole thread:

There's not going to be content that will satisfy everyone's wants or needs, mechanically or narratively. But what exists obviously satisfies enough people that Devs continue to make it. And it's unlikely that trend will end.

What does co-op have to do with anything?

Likely his teleport MA attacks. He uses (to my knowledge), Dragon's Tail and Crane Kick, easily dealing several thousand points of damage.

Normally I would have been done, but then you had to come and say this. I mean really, do you WANT people to throw their hands up in disgust and walk away? Because it doesn't actually prove you right or anything. It just means they can't actually discuss anything with you.

Well, then your only option is to ignore and not play that content, because it's obvious that it's not going to change to what you'd like. And I think at this point I'm done with the discussion, because this debate is going in circles.

Except without that PR, you can't get the message out about Cole lying to entire populace of Praetoria, because they won't listen to psychopaths who are willing to murder civilians. And before you go "But I don't care about Praetoria!" then your choice is to not run that trial, or pretend it doesn't exist to you. My response is based on those who do run TPN (which ironically is run more than MoM).

Disintegration isn't, but it use to be if you couldn't out-heal it, and it's considered a super-cheap gimmick of KIR, next to the Pulse. Malestrom's OHKO is "Marked For Death", where he puts a cross-hair on you. If you don't break line-of-sight or at least get far enough away when he uses "Time To Die", you instantly faceplant. Simple as that. But, if Maelstrom didn't have that, he'd just be a standard tank-n-spank, like Seige and Nightstar already are.

Because some people do care. You shouldn't say "We" like you're actually speaking for any number of the player-base. The forum board doesn't even constitute a majority. And as far as saying they aren't trying to be consistent, can you state with any certainty they aren't? Your only evidence is the existence of examples where gameplay and mechanics do not line up. But if that's supposedly evidence of their laziness, it can also be evidence of a lack thereof. We don't know if they could or couldn't find a way. Maybe the juiced up civilians was the only way they could make the trial fair. Maybe they DID use level 1 civvies, but found that ONE mistake (misfired Judgment, etc, etc,) resulted in an instantaneous failure for the entire league. Admittedly this is just a hypothetical, but you get the idea. You're assuming laziness where the evidence doesn't exist.

Because you're comparing early game to end-game. If you're going to compare two things, at least make the comparison relevant. Compare the rock-throwing civvie to any other end-game mob. Or, rather, what I'm trying to get you to do is recognize that the end-game content isn't always going to be internally consistent BECAUSE it's end-game. It's going to be Level 54 because all trials are level 54.


And I apologize if I made you feel that way. I openly recognize and acknowledge the disconnect. It's one of the unfortunate caveats of MMOs. And it's present in -every- MMO to some extent.

And it sounds like what bugs you is the end-game requiring a group effort, which you feel somehow diminishes the power you've earned, mechanics-wise, am I right? Well, I don't know what to say to that. The problem is that, until the DA content comes to Live, there's no way to get an acknowledgement right now. But at least in the DA content there IS an acknowledgement.

This is a bad example. Why? The rock-throwing civilian is only level 54 because it's a part of an Incarnate Trial. So really, you're comparing an early-game enemy (Bone Daddy) to an NPC used specifically in one and only ONE piece of content that's specifically in the end-game (Rock-throwing Civvie)

Praetorian content HAS civilians that you fight, that throw rocks and firebombs, but that's low level content, 1-10 actually. So we have a point of comparison. The low-level Civilian versus the low-level Bone Daddy. And the Bone Daddy obviously wins. Narrative integrity has been sustained.

I'm not stating the disconnect doesn't exist. I doubt anyone is. But just as it's our opinion that the disconnect is an issue that doesn't break our suspension of disbelief or ruin our immersion, it's also just an opinion that it's a problem for you. It's not a -fact- that the rock-throwing civilian is an issue.

Because it's a game mechanic. I'm willing to accept the idea that a rock throwing civvie can hit me for over half my health because I recognize that it's a game mechanic, regardless how inconsistent it is to the storyline. People seem to believe that the storyline and gameplay MUST be absolutely consistent, or that there MUST be an explanation for any and all discrepancies. You're right, it doesn't make any sense that these particular civilians can hit or put a dent in anything.

But it's a result and a function of them creating challenging content.


And yes, I consider one-hit kills necessary. If only because again, if they didn't include these gimmicks, Trials wouldn't be a challenge in a first place.

Why do you think so many things in Trials deal damage that is a percentage of the target's HP, rather than a straight number. Because the straight number is then usually a resistable damage type.

Why do you think so many of the attacks in Trials are auto-hits? Because of the huge number of buffs that often have the defenses of players sitting in the mid 100s, skyrocketing above the hardcap, leaving even the 54+3s with their massive to-hit bonuses with the base 5% chance.

Things like Anti-Matter's Entanglement and Disintegration, or Malestrom's Teleport MA attacks and Marked For Death are necessary functions of being end-game content. Otherwise we have things like Hamidon and the STF/LRSF, which aren't considered difficult at all because Incarnate powers have trivialized the difficulty.


I won't disagree that it's not very consistent with the plot and narrative, but me personally? I can accept that break because of what the Devs are trying to do.

Does it? Again, do people ignore the fact that Pandora's Box sparked the rise of the meta-human? If Pandora's box had not been opened, would anyone have had the spark, the drive to push themselves (speaking of Natural Origin only) into being more than "human"?

According to the lore? Possibly no. So even Natural Origin characters owe their existence to something derived from the Well.

I realize that a lot of folks have GG on ignore. Perhaps it's because I've only been on CoX for about 9 months, or maybe I'm just more tolerable of her behavior. I honestly have yet to take any issue with what she does, except for the constant smilies at the end of her posts, but I'm guessing she just does that as a quirk.

Forgive me if I'm getting this wrong, but according to the lore, isn't the source of the "spark" that lead to the advent and rise of the super-hero/meta-human Pandora's Box? That it actually lead to the kinds of things that would cause others to have that "potential"? And it's established that the Well can act through objects as well as straight from a watery tap. I always saw it myself as "The Well gave everyone that piece of potential that otherwise would not exist. That special something that allowed them to rise above others in similar situations to themselves", which is why you could concieveably have people of similiar origins (Natural being the best example, IMO) but only the PC's character rose to superhero standards.

Also, the more recent lore states that a "Well" exists for almost every species of being, it's a universal source of power. Admittedly, that piece of lore was only added recently, but it did answer the question of "How do things not native to Primal Earth or even this dimension become Incarnates, if originally being an Incarante depended upon where you came from?"

I figured I'd address these points both at the same time since they're somewhat related.

I rather LIKE the fact the well is "sentient" and "mad". Although, I suppose one could argue to what extent the Well is actually aware of it's own actions, and exactly how "mad" it actually is. I mean, the Letter Writer states that Mender Lazarus is an mad scientist, though in my interactions with him during the Ouro arc he seems incredibly lucid to me.

As for the idea that the Well being alive means that the nature of how we obtain power changes...I'd argue that's not the case. It's difficult to beseech it for more power when the only method of communication we've gotten is through Statesman/Recluse/Hero 1. Prometheus wants us to prove to the Well that it doesn't need a single, sole Champion. But not by talking or prostating ourselves before it. But with action, the same action that got Emperor Cole his title as "Well's Champion". And even then, plenty of folks I know RP disregarding or scoffing at Prometheus' idea in the first place.

So you can attain power without making it seem like you're just trying to suck up to Well, if the RP aspect is that important (And it is to me, I pretty much play exclusively on Virtue)

Again, addressing two related points at the same time. Praetoria being a problem is likely because of the similarities. Praetoria doesn't need us to open a Portal, they're capable of opening their own. Their technology is roughly comparable if not SUPERIOR in some cases (Warwalkers, the presence of actual cloning technology, etc, etc.). And they have an active interest in conquering us, and the means to do so in a terrifying manner; literally 'porting themselves into just about any location they want, as evidenced by TFs and the odd Server-wide event like the Seedling Invasion or the previous Praetorian Surge. Why a barrier like with the Rikti wasn't erected? I assume it's because unlike the Rikti, who have almost no means of dealing with magic, Praetoria could likely punch it's way though any such barrier that came up.

I feel that the Incarnate content is a primary example of where the Storyline and the Gameplay start to segregate from each other (the stone-throwing civvies being the Ur example right now). Also, while it's true that single characters can take on things that should be designed for whole groups (Soloing the ITF, Duoing Lambda, etc), that's not exactly a fault of the story that it's possible. That's the result of players tweaking their characters to the extreme and exploiting anything and everything in the system they can possibly manage. But doing so doesn't necessarily equate to story ability. Simply because a Controller/Dom can solo the LRSF doesn't mean anything in terms of the story. That's just an exploitation of mechanics. It's incredibly badass, I won't disagree, but I don't consider that meaningful or even relevant when RPing.

I can actually accept that Malestrom is now suddenly more badass because he has a plot device literally strapped to his chest, the full extent of which we've not seen. And we're aware that Cole has essentially empowered all his Praetors (a reasoning we were given for why Marauder/Mother/etc go from being 50 AVs in Maria Jenkins to 54+Whatever in Incarnate Trials) which gives them a hometurf advantage.

I don't disagree that you might feel the justifications and plots feel like ***-pulls. I suppose I simply don't see the problems or plot-holes in the story the way others do. So I'm constantly tilting and scratching my head when people complain about how the Trials have "Stories and backgrounds that barely hold togther", when in-game they seem to be explained rather well.

But again, it could be because I'm so new, I've not seen the progression of the game since Issue 1.

Which means you're asking her to go and actively look for people just to name drop to "prove her point". Fact of the matter is, those people you want to her find to back her claim up DO exist. But from what I've seen? They don't post on the forum board.

I myself have had plenty of discussion with folks in-game about how much we enjoy Praetoria or want to see more content beyond 1-20 in GR and 20-29 in First Ward. There was even talk of things like Praetorian Hazard Zones and Praetorian specific trials to try and bring back some life to a zone with a great amount of potential.

Most of those folks? Avoid the forum board like the plague.

Touche on the trope, but still, there's a good reason why Incarnate Trials use gimmicks and seemingly super-cheap mechanics like the Rock-Throwing Citizens or the Gamma Pulse from Keyes Island Reactor. They have to. They cannot use normal in-game mechanics against Incarnates. It's why all the enemies in trials are automatically 54 and the AVs go up to 54+3. If they don't, we'd stomp ALL over them.

Without these gimmicks, the trials wouldn't be difficult in the slightest. So yes, things like damage that %-based and bypasses defense and resistance and massive debuffs and One-hit kills are absolutely necessary. Otherwise end-game is a yawn-fest.

And that's a bald-faced lie. Just because folks on the forums say they don't like it doesn't mean they represent the entirety, or even the majority of the playerbase. I know plenty of folks who not only really like Praetoria, but would find it awesome if there was Praetorian content ranging from 1-50.

And I'm one of them.