IronAlex

Originally Posted by macskull

Phase has always been better than Hibernate, and still is despite the ability for other players to phase after you. Traditionally builds would only take Hibernate if they couldn't fit both phase and perception into the build, which will no longer be the case on almost 100% of builds come I19.

Your comment about "widows can't heal" means you look at hibernate as a heal tool rather than a phase tool, which is easily replaced by a few greens or an Emp/Therm/Pain. I can't think of a single situation where I'd rather have Hibernate over phase because 1) Hibernate is like a giant "FREE KILL HERE" sign in zone PvP, and 2) Hibernate doesn't allow you to react after you activate it meaning the spike you hit Hibernate to avoid may well kill you anyways because the hit rolls were already made.

Nothing needs Hibernate (hell, or phase even) but in the current version of PvP - regardless of whether heal decay and travel suppression are in play - you're a significantly easier target if you don't have one or the other, and of the two you're an easier target if you have Hibernate instead of phase.

Originally Posted by Mercury_Down

I pretty much only PVP on my PB, that being said I consider inherent fitness a bigger buff for human form...

I have never had any endurance issues in nova form, sometimes in dwarf. While the inherent fitness will be an added bonus for nova and dwarf, it is going to have little impact on my gameplay.

Inherent fitness for human form on the other hand is going to benefit quite a bit. I'll be able to squeeze in tough and glowing touch. Which will increase both my survivability and my teamates.

Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim

Orrrr he honestly thinks it might be a good secondary, because he's thinking about what would be cool from movies, etc., he's seen... not what would really work in our game.

To the OP, you're probably not going to see a Dual Pistols secondary: those are usually more focused on melee attacks and mitigation... I think a DP secondary would almost be on par with BAB's joking reference to a Dual Bows defense secondary. A lot of your powers are like what would go in a primary, or match up with what some secondaries can do already.

Personally, Blasters are due for a Secondary, and I hope it will be using Martial Arts powers (among some new things to make it work). Especially because Maelstrom the NPC is a DP/MA Blaster. That would work, as it would have melee attacks and mitigation powers if set up right.

Originally Posted by _Brick_

I was thinking about this myself and decided on Mental. I figured the redraw was gonna be an issue regardless of what secondary I selected.

I really like buildup and since DP doesn't have aim either, that excludes Devices.

I really like a good endurance power, Ice doesn't have one and Fire's is too long recharge.

Since DP has a cone, a mini cone and two AOE powers, I felt I could maximize AOEs/Cones better with Mental. The only AOE powers in Energy and Electric are from Thunderstrike/Total Focus......and those are small and melee based. I also felt that with so many aoe/cone attacks throughout the primary and secondary I could have decent AOE throughout the life of the toon not just the last levels.

Mental's Shockwave has an AOE disorient component and Suppressive Fire is a disorient (or hold if you use swap ammo). Couple this with Oppressive Gloom (if going that route) and you can have some decent Disorient (bosses too).

And I love the additional survivability given by Drain Psyche if slotted for regen (also coupled with a nice resist shield late game).

Added that you can be the -regen toon if needed on AVs and EBs with Drain Psyche.

I am still happy with my choice so far to level 17 in Praetoria. AOE goodness at lower levels and ridiculous on teams. I have leveled a Mind/PSI dom to 50 so I can attest to most of the powers in the Mental set. Oh I miss the old shockwave.

Originally Posted by Psyrene

and then most of these people do not come back out of either base until phase/hiber has recharged.


I have to ask do you play a tank/brute/scrapper, if so then of course the i13 changes don't really bother you, helping out melee toons is one of the things it was designed to do, and also you have zero things to base your comparison on since you said you did not PvP prior to i13.

Originally Posted by FluffTrooper

yes, you need to complete the patron arcs still

Originally Posted by AresSupreme

As a pvper Rogue opens up more possibilities when building your toons, for instance on your scrap you have the op to go hibernate or shadow meld. And doms can get hoarfrost. dont know if the vills got that with i18 alone, or if u need GR to get hero epics.

Originally Posted by AresSupreme

Just noticed that KM has a much lower crit chance...AND...CS doesnt crit? is that so?

Originally Posted by LuxunS

I guess I'll bite. Someone who has been around longer can fill in the gaps if I miss something.

Once upon a time PvP in CoH was quite similar to PvE. Most of the PvP zones were populated during prime times and some all the time, across several servers.

Then Issue 13 came around. This was supposed to be the issue to improve pvp. There wasn't all that much else in this issue (Merit rewards, multiple builds, shields/pain dom, and leveling pacts.) The only content was a few missions added to Cimerora and the midnight squad arcs. The big changes all came with the power and system re-balances for pvp.

The changes made to pvp completely changed the system. It was to the point where players had to learn almost a completely different game. Several powers didn't function in the same manner, and some of the systems introduced are so complex, you literally have to know calculus to properly understand them. I'll attempt to break down the changes and how they affected what the game once was.

1. The damage of all attacks has been refigured. Basically, the longer the activation/animation time of an attack power, the more damage the power is going to do. There are adjustments for recharge time and Endurance cost, but the actual time the power takes up in an attack chain is the primary consideration.

This in of itself seems to make sense. The more time you spend activating a power, the more damage it does. This caused some problems with sets that were fast activating however, as their powers now did significantly less damage. Some sets or individual powers were hit pretty hard by this (ice blast being the first one that comes to mind). On the flip side, powers that were once skippable became the most damaging powers available (flurry).

2. In general, the base damage of all Archetypes has been increased in PvP zones and Arenas. The Containment bonus for Controllers in PvP has been reduced because of their higher base damage.

All archetypes got a damage boost, this counters some of the other changes made later one. What it doesn't say is that the archetypes were not all evenly boosted. Example in pve a fortunata's range attacks do significantly more damage then a defender with psi blasts; in pvp the damage is identical when recharge/activation/endurance are factored in.

3. Travel suppression - Being hit by an attack triggers movement suppression, just as making an attack does. Suppression for being hit by an attack is always the same duration. Any power with a negative impact on the target (including all debuff powers) is considered an attack.

This still one of pvpers biggest complaints. Not only are you slowed when you attack, you are slowed by being attacked. This completely removes evasion from being a tactic/skill in pvp. Subsequently, escape powers like phase/hibernate/pff became even more important because there were the only way to disengage from combat. Also, the notes didn't mention that several buff powers caused travel suppression, ones that didn't even make sense (mind link, rttc, etc). One of the biggest draws of CoH PvP was its fast pace, this took that away.

4. Note that Teleport powers are completely disabled when suppressed.

An entire travel pool was rendered useless.

5. The greater the base range of an attack, the longer the suppression for the attacker.

I didn't even realize that this was part of the update.

6. Teleport Foe and related powers in Gravity Control and Warshade powersets now grant 3/4 of a second "untouchable" flag on the target.

I suppose this was instituted to prevent the tp ganking. I don't have any problems with this change

7. Diminishing Returns - Resistance and defense powers have greater diminishing returns when stacked than in PvE, and lower caps. "Buffing" Archetypes (Defenders, Controllers, Corruptors, Dominators and Masterminds) have less ability to benefit from all buffing powers than other ATs (the powers have less effect on them, and their caps are lower).

Now DR has become a standard for pvp. This is not so much because it was welcomed by the community, but because the way all the powers function, it is a necessity. This also had an major negative side effect. The DR effect is so steep on most attributes buffs have become mostly useless. Why bring a bubbler or sonic when the shields only grant 2-3% of protection? Also since squishies get less benefit from the buffs, the ones that rely on them for survivability (force fields, sonic to a lesser extent) don't get those benefits in pvp, thus rendering their secondary useless.

As a side not defense based toons were given elusivity of 30% to bring them more on par with resistance based toons. This number was shown to be overpowered on paper and in practice. In the following issue, elusivity was reduced to 10%. This proved to be an overnerf and defense-based toons mostly disappeared.

8. Heal Decay - Healing powers suffer from diminishing returns when several are used in a short period of time. Healing powers also trigger suppression.

This really irked a lot of people. The more you heal in a period of time, the less effective it becomes. Also, the healer is travel suppressed. It seems like this was just instituted because someone got grieved by an emp/blaster combo. In its current form, healers are less useful, and easy targets. The more they heal, the less effective it is, and they're also travel suppressed so they're easier targets.

9. Global Resists - All Archetypes (except Tankers and Masterminds) have some default resistances to all attacks in PVP.

All archetypes are given a base resistance, this varied from 10-40%. Not included in the patch notes were that some resistance shields that once granted +res to only some damage types recieved +res to all. What this did was take many of the advantages away from some of the sets and further remove strategy or sense from the pvp game. (ex. invul being weak to psi). Picking patron/app shields doesn't matter cause the res ones all offer the same benefit.

10. Melee classes gain extra resistances to all debuffs and to movement slows. These bonuses are linked to the power in each set that gives status protection (Unyielding Stance, Wet Ice, Plasma Shield, etc.).

Whatever

11. Defeating enemies in PvP can award Influence/Infamy, Inspirations, and rarely Salvage, but no XP.

Good change, numbers are too low, but whatever.

12. In general, there is no such thing as Status Protection in PvP, only Resistance. The exception is Knockback protection, since Knockback is a binary effect. The base durations of status effects are greatly reduced in PvP (generally 4 seconds for Controllers and Dominators, 2 seconds for all other Archetypes).

There are 2 camps on this one. In the old system inspiration management was important especially up against a fortunata or dominator. Balancing breakfrees was a skill in itself. In the current system breakfrees do absolutely nothing. The duration of holds has been reduced, but the ability to counter them has been removed. What happens is instead of having to plan ahead to counter holds, now you simply have to deal with them. Some people like this because it is less work/clicking they have to do; others hate it because they're left helpless with not counter, much like being run out of breakfrees prior to i13. Personally I don't like this change, a powerboosted, dominated, stun can last upwards of 10 seconds. There is nothing you can do to counter that. 10 seconds is certainly long enough to kill someone.

13. Unlike in PvE, defensive toggles do not suppress when you are held/stunned. This means that not only do the toggles not drop, they continue to grant defenses while the player is held/stunned.

Good change

14. Didn't see it in the notes, but there was also a taunt change. Taunt within powersets for brutes/scrappers/tanks now has a -75% range component.

Good change, except for that the base taunt duration isn't affected by taunt resistance. So even unslotted, with a few recharge reductions you can perma-stack it. Oh yea and it stacks, it becomes silly when you have to stand on top of someone to hit them with a melee attack.



All in all what these changes did was remove much of the skill/strategy from the pvp game. It was supposed to attract new players and make the pvp system more accessible for people who failed at the original pvp system. The new players never came and the old players were driven away by a system that simply not fun. It also separated things the pvp and pve game so much that competitive pvp missions or pve/pvp missions will probably never come.

One of the things that really pushes pvpers the wrong way is that when these changes were announced the developers made a statement that pvp would not be ignored any longer.



Yea.....

Originally Posted by Mercury_Down

Yessir!

Originally Posted by macskull

Not having to take Fitness isn't the reason Regen is the best PvP secondary.

Originally Posted by Mercury_Down

The only thing I am aware about it being off is Concentrated Strike having a base 441 damage for scrappers. Buffed up, it is hitting for 1000+ damage (that's resisted damage by the way.) So basically it's doing critical level damage 100% of the time. Compared to crit percentages of other tier 9s, that's off by at least 85%. If the devs are on their game then you will see CS getting a bit of a PVP nerf soon.

KM for Brutes and Tanks look fine (don't know about stalkers.)

Originally Posted by Zombie Man

Nitpick: That 'regular edition' of which you type is really the "Expansion" edition ($30). It's slightly cheaper, but doesn't have the free month nor the extra goodies in the Complete Edition ($40). the "Expansion" edition was the edition used for pre-purchase which allowed early access to Dual Pistols and Demon Summoning. The GR: Item Pack ($7) adds in the extra goodies the Expansion edition is missing.

So, really, the Complete Edition should be considered the 'regular edition' of the game. Even though it's $10 more, it has the extra goodies plus a free month worth $15.

The extra value of the Expansion was early access to the 2 power sets, and that advantage is now gone. It makes no economic sense at all to buy the Expansion after GR had went Live.