Iodine

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...If you team, it's not that hard to find someone who can keep mobs in burn...

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And if you don't team (very often), then what?

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...And burn ... is not useless while solo, you just have to pick out a decent time 'n' place to use it, instead of putting it on auto while the invuln tanker herds mobs onto you.

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Assume much? Believe it or not, not every fire tanker herded the zone map or exploited the Dreck dumpsters. IMO, the only decent time 'n' place to use it today is on a team with someone who can mitigate the fear AI. Even then, the potency of the power leaves a lot to be desired. It's pretty wild that an ice controller's frostbite might even exceed it's effectiveness with containment.

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... Burn just sticks out 'cause it was so freakingly, amazingly over-powered for about a year. And, yes, my only 50 is a fire / fire tanker. I know *precisely* how over the top burn was...

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How far "over the top" were the changes to "fix" this power? I feel the changes to the power itself were a bit much - considering mob AI was conveniently and simultaneously recoded to further "nerf" Burn's effectiveness. Add ED and then watch the power's effectiveness slip below Bob Dole virility.

Next up, Nerf-Herders, and the devs that love them ...

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Actually, by the numbers, Dominators outdamage Controllers until the controllers can pick up the epic pools. Fire Mastery + Containment = sick damage.

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And even if I were to agree with you, is this a good thing? In my experience Controller > Dominator at pretty much every level - but definitely at 41+.

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... Dominators give up a bit of control for some good direct damage attacks that Controllers would give their left mouse button for...

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I don't think so. I play both ... and IMO controller containment = superior damage. Add the higher MAG control and it seems to me controllers greatly outshine dominators - particularly in PvP.

Well said. Cult of Personality ... exactly.

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I was pretty pissed about it before, but I gotta admit, the controller changes were okay. I like the blastroller feel.

The devs really do know what they're doing (most of the time). Its probably for the best when the player base gets ignored on balance issues.

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No, it's not.

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... Over 80 in the zone, there were over 16 AMs up, and probably around 30 controllers. With the AMs I would say that should have been more then enough to hold him...

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Infinity's experience pre-I7 has been that about 30 trollers and 10AMs kept him held. I figure either your Victory server numbers were off, you had some weird server issues and/or disconnects, or they did more to the Hamidon than allow him to attack while held. Given the top-notch type of communication we receive from the devs, I wouldn't rule out the latter.

Someone should tell team-dev that ignoring threat level damage multipliers is not the same as ignoring the damage. Taunt aside, whoever is dealing more of it should get the aggro.

Now that they've buffed his AI and powers, where is the increased reward to match the increased risk?

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...The point I'm making is you're not going to get an influx of griefers just because of this change. They've only got a new option in nuking a raid, not a new motive. They've always been empowered to break up a raid at any time by luring in GM's... so whats the BFD?

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Maybe if we hadn't been told here that CS takes the griefing of Hami raids serious and led to believe that steps would be taken to address the issue when petitioning, we might not be so anxious about this change providing more options for the behavior.

It is a BFD.

Maybe some of us wish there were as strong a priority by this dev team on curbing anti-social behavior in game as there is on PLing, herding, and PvP balancing.

Given how much they'd been nerfed & how very little the Hero side of this game has been given in content and features in the past year, I'd say the Villain update that was I7 was not the correct time to reevaluate the only significant end game Heroes have.

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Then, sometime in the future, you can have a Pocket D contact give out a combined hero and villian Hamidon Raid as a special event.

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I kinda like this idea

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This probably won't ever happen. There are already enough problems with dozens of Heroes gathered at the bottom of Hami's nucleus. Add dozens of villains and all you'll get is Hive 2 and lots of lag.

Besides, Villains don't need Hami anymore. They just need Corruptors ... you know ... specific ones to complete the LRSF.

Or so it would seem.

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... The fact is the only thing that will tell our developer's they screwed up is if they stop getting money. You wan't Hami fixed or hero-like heroes who haven't been hit so hard with a nerf bat that they are cripples? It'll only happen when subscriptions plummet. Whining and crying on this forum will do you no good.

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QFT

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Quite frankly, I don't see the need for all the discussion. If all the people here who were irritated would just pass along a bit of advice to a friend and a friend of a friend, an easier way of making changes might occur.

Just stop raiding Hamidon. Plain and simple. If your Level 50 has nothing better to do with his time, then move to another character. As long as people prove things can be done and they are willing to do them, developers will implement them. If down the road datamining shows that no one is raiding Hamidon, that's probably more likely to get results than 20 or 2000 pages of complaint notes, followed by people continuing to successfully raid like before.

I strongly believe the main reason that most of the AV boost is being rolled back is not because of the player notes but because mining and research showed that most groups couldn't actually take down the AVs.

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Good guess. Whereas this clever Hamidon change is being made to balance the difficulty of the LRSF in CoV to Paragon City and the heroes that are already loaded up on HOs. Brilliant.

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... And they will notice, and they will either add something new, or fix the Hamidon in some significantly dramatic way. ...

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Yes that's possible. I mean after all, don't you know they made HOs combinable right after they nerfed them? (No, they didn't. In fact, combinable HOs were significantly delayed and touted as a compensation for what ED had done to everyone months later in I6)

If the size of the original ED and nerfed HO threads are any indication, what's more likely to happen is ... nothing.

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... Which is prolly why I find it interesting that despite this change, he was still beat.

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Small consolation, considering the reward was not changed to match the risk. In fact, for some, the reward was simply removed. Now that's challenge. Brilliant.

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...The Hamidon and the Mitochandria were specifically exempted from the original AV/GM changes. As such, there is nothing to roll back for them, in this regard.

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Oh, so it's not like you guys forgot to mention in your patch notes the OTHER things you specifically decided to do to him and the Mitos, right? You kept mum on purpose? Brilliant.

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They have always stated that Hamidon will continue to change to be a challenge.

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Not lately ... not for a very long while ... and more importantly - not when I7 went to test and live. Brilliant.

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...The Hamidon and the Mitochandria were specifically exempted from the original AV/GM changes. As such, there is nothing to roll back for them, in this regard.

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Oh, so it's not like you guys forgot to mention in your patch notes the OTHER things you specifically decided to do to him and the Mitos, right? You kept mum on purpose? Brilliant.

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It's not an official Issue release until a missing patch note has been confirmed.

Also, trying to add challenge by breaking the rules of the game (attacking while held) is not a good path to walk down.

My outlook on the game's future is a bit more reserved now.

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As is mine. Not only was this gem conveniently omitted while several weeks on test, it was omitted on the live patch notes. How can this have happened?

The significance in actually upgrading each Mito to a bonafide AV is incredible. Not only do they automatically hit with untyped damage, now they appear to be buffed further with this AI change.

The significance in allowing a held mob to still attack is another unprecedented change. Hamidon and his Mitos don't suddenly figure out how to use powers they've always had just because the villains are borked with their new SF. I'd really like to hear the official explanation for this one.

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Be they bugs or intended, is this really a problem?

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Yes - particularly if this was intended. The only end-game content of consequence for Heroes should not have been stealth-changed. Since CoH perks for I7 were pale in comparison to the CoV side, I'd say it was not the correct time to adjust the jello without alerting us of it at least.

I'll err on the side of caution and assume the changes were unintended.

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So it's not actually working as intended, then, because the buffs DON'T stack?

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To answer my own question: I've been doing some testing, and the buffs are definitely not stacking, neither from the same station nor from different ones. I even hopped between Arcane and Tech. No dice.

'You failed to create the Increase Run Speed because your inventory is full.'

So, we're currently stuck with buffs that are too weak to use unstacked, and which refuse to stack! Obviously, this is going to need fixing one way or the other.

Till then, let's just put the word out not to use up Salvage on these things until they're fixed. Maybe this could be added to the known issues.

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I wouldn't hold my breath.

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Multiple empowerment stations will stack the buffs that are offered (by design). If we made the buffs as good as players "expect" right out the gate, they'd be WAY too good when stacked.

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The problem with this is that you created these stations for small SGs. These guys have limited resources and limited amts of prestige. Do the math, Pos. Entrance Room, Energy Room, Control Room, and Work Station room. Now add the basic generator, mainframe, basic work table. Ok ... now here comes the answer small SGs have been waiting for. Add the enhancement storage thingee & the salvage storage thingee. Great ... drumroll please ...

Now add HOW many empowerment stations and more rare salvage to hear the answer for which small groups were waiting? Break it down for me, please. I want to believe these groups can earn enough prestige before I8 releases next year to test your theory, sir. Hell ... after all of this nonsense, maybe they can start actually decorating their bases with those nifty banners!

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Correct.

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Toldage.

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Lameage. We all know why this idiotic change reared it's ugly head. I wasn't misled at all. I knew as soon as Statesman starting talking about it that the pool's utility would be lowered to just above craptastic.

It seems to me stealthing a mission for glowies is no different than getting mission xp from contacts that tell you talk to other contacts or to patrol areas in a city (clicking on phone booths, etc). These types of missions are usually minimum risk to the player too. I guess they're gonna nerf those missions as well?

If they’re so hot to suppress stealth during combat, I'm thinking it's a fair trade to remove the movement penalty while being suppressed. Hey you know … balance and all.

No, I stopped holding my breath a while ago.

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... PS i read all posts on a thread before i hit that reply tag, i've always thought it would be great if others did the same...

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Stick around a while and wait for the next HO-nerf or ED-like topic to burn through your soul. You might not feel as warm and fuzzy heroic as you do now. Or maybe you actually will. The cartel needs a few more ... members ...

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... Yes, it sucks big time that it's being pushed back, again.... but it's worth it. Seriously worth it.

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Sure it is ... for mostly Villains and PvPers ... I got it. I hope it's worth the wait for everyone else. Me, maybe I'll catch up on a few more badges and try to remember what the holiday is really about - considering few do.

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Oh yes. Thank you very much - whoever you are. Do you know Zeb? You have a lot in common. We miss him too.

If the only way I can get timely, new content in the game these days is through the "dedication" of off-hours coding by someone in his/her free time, one wonders if I8 will even release before the end of the year!


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Uhm... ok? I was just trying to offer another point of view but ok then. Never mind. I'll beat the drums so you guys can start whipping them more. M'kay?

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Your point was well taken. Careful with mine please? Besides - offering whips is dangerous this close to Memorial Day. Enjoy yours, Lady.

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Some people spend most of their free time playing COX. And that is totally beyond the point. The point is when other devs were heading up issues, when they gave a release date, it was HARdly, and I strongly use the word Hardly ever late if late at all. Now all of a sudden this issue has been " Being released" for almost 2 months now..and what have we gotten nothing. I also want a bugg free I7, but at the same time....weve been after this for a long time and been testing it for a while now. Its hard to believe having a BF in the computers/internet field, that its taking this long to get these bugs fixed and I7 on live. I dont meant to offend the devs, I know they are trying very hard to get this issue done. But if it was this difficult they never should of given us a release date. GL devs and Ill be back in game when it releases. Cause Im damn bored.


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Uhm... just to counter the sentiment I'd like to thank the devs. Especially the designer of Mayhem Missions for working on them during his free time. Not at work sort of thing. The guy who designed the original PDP did it completely in his free time. So, to the dedication it takes to do something without getting paid, thanks guys.

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Oh yes. Thank you very much - whoever you are. Do you know Zeb? You have a lot in common. We miss him too.

If the only way I can get timely, new content in the game these days is through the "dedication" of off-hours coding by someone in his/her free time, one wonders if I8 will even release before the end of the year!

Still, thank you CJ for the info.

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I'm wondering if there is some balance issues with this that aren't quick and easy to fix. If, whatever's holding cross-over up will take a while to get developed or coded or whatever, it might seem more cost efficient to get several other things done first. ...

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Given how much scrutiny has already been given for the ATs (Hero and Villain alike) since CoV was released, I think balance issues have very little to do with it. Rather there is some fundamental code that would need to be reworked once crossover is taken off the shelf. Villains can't go into Steel Canyon from Siren's Call and Heroes can't get past the Arbiter Drones and hitch rides on the Black Helicopter line for example. AI Aggro flags would need to be reworked for each toon that was flagged as having completed whatever requirement they'll implement to make the crossover in the first place. Yes, it seems to me there are more design issues than balance.