Inokis

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If there is no sensory perception of it then it isn't there.

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Scientifically speaking, this is false.

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The wave is there

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The kind of wave that is there is a sound wave. Sound IS the wave. The problem is coming from the confusion between confounding the scientific definition of sound, which is a wave generated by occilating pressure through a physical medium, and the common concept of sound which is "something I can hear".

Scientifically speaking sound has a physical reality which can both be directly and indirectly observed. It is not a perception.

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Perception doesn't preclude the existence but withot the ability to perceive it, it isn't there in how we describe as 'light' or as 'sound'.

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You're incorrect. Light and sound have physical realities. Our perceptions of them, which are by the way very faulty, do not dictate their existence. Again, we can scientifically prove their existence through indirect observation, i.e. bypassing our perceptions entirely to view their effects on another, unrelated medium (such as light on a photographic plate for instance).

Light and sound have an objective, measurable reality that in no wise requires perception, human or otherwise, to define.

in fact, we can say that the human perception of light and sound is very limited and barely is able to perceive either of them at all. This is why terms like "the visible spectrum of light" and "the audible frequency range of sound" exist: because we know that we can only perceive a very small part of those things and there is much more to the reality of both of them than we're capable of perceiving. No human eye is capable of perceiving ultraviolet light, but that does not mean it does not exist.

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I didn't say it doesn't exist... I said it doesn't exist as we define the perception of it... What causes it to be observed exists in its measurable quantities but if no entity is there to give it definition or a container to fit it into measurable definitions then it is merely just particles, and such existing without being observed. Until one 'sees' or 'hears' them in whatever capacity the life form has, then it isn't light it is a wavelength. It isn't sound, it is a wave.... etc so on and so forth.

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Red Side?

8 Masterminds.

That's basically the game turned into mush.

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You beat me to it. I was just about to say 8 MMs all with varying powersets to complement the rest of the party. However 8 FF mms would be pretty snazzy, I don't think anyone would take any damage at all.

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Used to be that if someone was a level 50, you could count on a certain level of skill and teamwork, because they had worked hard through all the zones, and knew what to do.

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You have to define 'level of skill'. I don't die very often and when I do hit 50 it will have been through my skill and my hard work soloing, but any mechanic that may involve teaming I will have no experience in. However, I also avoid PUGs, always have in any MMO. When I have grouped, it is to Mal a new MM to teach them about bodyguarding or some tactic they aren't familiar with.

Skill is relative to an individual experience. I will only have had experience with one char at 50 so my overall knowledge of other classes will be next to nil.

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about 3 weeks ago a friend of mine and myself decided that we were addicted to coh, we decided to play only 2 hours on tuesdays, 4 hours fridays, and weekends are free for all. We used to play basically everyday for 3+ hours. Without coh to keep me busy, i find the internet boring. I almost have my first toon to 50 too! Its killing me

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So play when you want and do as you want. You don't need to play with a friend just to have fun.

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how very Zen.
I prefer the classics though: if a tree falls in the woods and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

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No. It makes the air vibrate a lot, yes, but sound is air vibrations converted into sensory information. So no listener, no sound.

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You've ever been a wood/forest?

It's full of squirrels/badgers/bears...

Somethings going to hear it.

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This hasn't always been so. There was a time before there were creatures who could interpret these signals. Since, we have proven that there are these signals ever present in every day life. Much of the 'static' you see as white noise on a tv set is leftover data from the origins of the universe. Scientists have even mapped the data and reproduced what the universe looked like at its earliest point that we can measure.

[/ QUOTE ]American Heritage Dictionary: "1a. Vibrations transmitted through an elastic solid or a liquid or gas, with frequencies in the approximate range of 20 to 20,000 hertz, capable of being detected by human organs of hearing. b. Transmitted vibrations of any frequency. "

The waves themselves are "sound", whether there's anything to "hear" them or not.

I used to make the argument that it doesn't make a NOISE unless someone hears it, because noise is a subjective value. No observer, no judgment, no "noise". But the dictionary doesn't support that either: "1a. Sound or a sound that is loud, unpleasant, unexpected, or undesired. b. Sound or a sound of any kind".

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If there is no sensory perception of it then it isn't there. The wave is there, the mechanic that could produce sound is there, but without the sensory to feel it, or to interpret it into what is sound then its just the emission from whatever event caused it.

A deaf person can't interpret sound, however they know sound exists. A blind person can't see light but they know the wavelengths exist. Perception doesn't preclude the existence but withot the ability to perceive it, it isn't there in how we describe as 'light' or as 'sound'.

Here I was thinking this was going to be another one of those threads where ppl continue listing what they don't like out of parody and it turns into an OP bashing.

How is it that one thread of this type carries on the tradition while this one gets bashed?

It hasn't gone unnoticed. There was a huge discussion right after it happened about ppl being irritated at it.

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how very Zen.
I prefer the classics though: if a tree falls in the woods and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

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No. It makes the air vibrate a lot, yes, but sound is air vibrations converted into sensory information. So no listener, no sound.

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You've ever been a wood/forest?

It's full of squirrels/badgers/bears...

Somethings going to hear it.

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This hasn't always been so. There was a time before there were creatures who could interpret these signals. Since, we have proven that there are these signals ever present in every day life. Much of the 'static' you see as white noise on a tv set is leftover data from the origins of the universe. Scientists have even mapped the data and reproduced what the universe looked like at its earliest point that we can measure.

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Another question for you.. do other people exist if you're not interacting with them? For all you.. well, for all I know, I suppose, you're all merely part of a complex computer simulation and when I'm not interacting with aspects of it, it shuts down the sensory aspects of them and runs the systems as data.


OoooOOOOooooOOOOooooo *finger waggle*

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That depends on which form of existence you imply. Do they exist as people somewhere on this earth? Does their character exist? etc.. The answer to both are yes. You can go by get_global_name or get_local_name to prove someone exists whether you can talk to them or not. You can do searches and come up with results that they exist whether you interact or not. As far as do people exist in reality? go to Myspace or any other site and you will find tons of people who exist regardless of whether one chooses to interact with them or not.

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This means that K.I.T.T., Doc Brown and Fifi LaFume really, actually exist? Wow!

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They exist on the servers in data bits and mesh textures.

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For that matter, are you sure this is real at all? Perhaps you are dreaming that you are who you think you are, and that you're sitting at a computer reading this thread. Perhaps you are something else when you wake up, but you won't remember that until you do.

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My analogy has always been... What if we are simply babies, dreaming this dream. We are still in our cribs, have yet to wake and this will all have been some wink or glimpse by some spark of imagination. Thats why babies cry.

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Another question for you.. do other people exist if you're not interacting with them? For all you.. well, for all I know, I suppose, you're all merely part of a complex computer simulation and when I'm not interacting with aspects of it, it shuts down the sensory aspects of them and runs the systems as data.


OoooOOOOooooOOOOooooo *finger waggle*

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That depends on which form of existence you imply. Do they exist as people somewhere on this earth? Does their character exist? etc.. The answer to both are yes. You can go by get_global_name or get_local_name to prove someone exists whether you can talk to them or not. You can do searches and come up with results that they exist whether you interact or not. As far as do people exist in reality? go to Myspace or any other site and you will find tons of people who exist regardless of whether one chooses to interact with them or not.

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I think it does, because Zombie/Rikti raids can still hit the empty zones. THey don't usually stick around very long, though.

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Ahh, but what about if the events don't happen? What about zones like Faultline, the PVP zones, the Hive, etc?

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Then refer to this

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BTW, before we get to this semi-inevitable point....

There were eggs before chickens.

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Probably.

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Then what laid the eggs?

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Proto-chicken

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Exactly. Or, if you prefer, Reptiles, Amphibians, Fish, Insects... all orders of life much older than birds and all of which are known to lay eggs.

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The question "which came first, the chicken or the egg", it's implicit the question presumes a CHICKEN egg.

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That implies that at some point in the past, a chicken was hatched from the egg of a different animal, albeit likely related. But a housecat cannot spontaneously give birth to a tiger cub (naturally, that is!).

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A lot of people have issues grasping the what comes first concept. This is a very simplistic example:
Species 1 lays egg: Genetic Mutation ensues: Species mutation Hatches:Species Mutation lays egg:Genetic Mutation ensues:Species 2 hatches.

I don't know enough about genetics to know whether the mutation is coded into the yolk or if the mutation occurs as the species develops but that in essence the process.

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how very Zen.
I prefer the classics though: if a tree falls in the woods and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

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No. It makes the air vibrate a lot, yes, but sound is air vibrations converted into sensory information. So no listener, no sound.

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Wait, does that mean that there was no sound anywhere before there were people around to hear it?

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There have been a plethora of creatures that could hear sound before there were humans. There have been creatures that could sense sound waves even if they couldn't hear them.

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That's just sidestepping the issue. Because now I can ask, "well then what about before life began on this planet or anywhere else in the universe? Was there no sound? Was there no light, until there was an eye with which to see it?"

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There is no sidestepping. The waves and frequencies exist, but until there is something capable of perceiving it and converting it into information then they are just waves and frequencies.

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how very Zen.
I prefer the classics though: if a tree falls in the woods and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

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No. It makes the air vibrate a lot, yes, but sound is air vibrations converted into sensory information. So no listener, no sound.

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Wait, does that mean that there was no sound anywhere before there were people around to hear it?

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There have been a plethora of creatures that could hear sound before there were humans. There have been creatures that could sense sound waves even if they couldn't hear them.

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how very Zen.
I prefer the classics though: if a tree falls in the woods and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

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No. It makes the air vibrate a lot, yes, but sound is air vibrations converted into sensory information. So no listener, no sound.

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...and I thought I was the only one who ever gave this answer...

As far as the original question...A zone is never alive, it is made of code translated into 3d mesh textures etc...Is it online when other zones are, yes. Unless of course the cluster crashes the zone, and if no one is in it then only the people on the backend would ever know.

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I was trying to nip a potential cry-fest in the bud.

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How noble of you.

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It does not make sense. Many villains believe they are good guys you know? Like nazis surely thought of themselve as the good guys during the WW2 back then.

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The only reason people could or would confuse my mm as 'one of the good guys' is because I spend my time in RWZ. My MM is part of the human circle, if humanity dies he dies as well. Its more an act of self preservation than a moral choice.

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Is your level listed in the real numbers "Powers" pop-up? I know your current Influence/Infamy is, but can't remember if your level is.....

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Not the last time I looked. XP to level, yes, level, no.

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If you go to manage powers, and for any power pool you click on 'Show Detailed Info' it will give you a slider for 'Power as used by LVL AT'. The LVL is defaulted to your current level if you never moved it. Its much quicker to use info though. You can also get this by right-clicking any buff applied to yourself in the status window.

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No - the Arachnos Cape is different. That's a cape that has the Arachnos Logo on the back. I think the only way to get that is the collector's edition.

You do get an Arachnos chest symbol with the 30 month vet reward, but we can't put chest emblems on our capes.

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So the 31 month vet rewards don't give you a cape logo, just uniform logos?

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Too bad, but well, thanks anyway, the other info was good enough.

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The Arachnos Logos are in the 31 month vet reward I believe, so its possible to make a cape with the logo if that is workable for you.

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when you create a character after getting those packs, you have access to those capes from the start and don't have to wait till level 20, I believe that's what BuckeyeStar was getting at anyhow.

Also, when you buy the Mission Architect box, it comes with a free code that you get to choose either the Magic or Cyborg Booster Packs. Pick the Magic one and there ya go, you have high collar capes at level 1 with no Vet Rewards obtained.

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I don't have either so I can't verify it on a toon, but thats pretty messed up that you can pre 20. I do recall seeing ppl running around mercy with capes pre 20 so I'm pretty sure you're correct on that regardless.

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Vet Reward
Valkyrie Pack
Magic Pack

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Valk Pack and Magic pack are boosters. They aren't from the start. You purchase them once you have an active sub, unless you start with those boxed sets.

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This whole idea of having to log back in with your password being considered "protection" is a farce. How often would any of these proposed incidents occur? Not often enough to even be blip on customer services' radar. Besides, they can actually restore your deleted character. The whole thing smacks as being a lame excuse for some decision made long ago and an unwillingness to change it, much like the lame excuse for restricting capes anymore when you can clearly have certain capes from the beginning.

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The only capes I know of that you can have at the start of a toon is a vet reward. Which requires a certain amount of time for the account active. I don't know of anyone who starts with a trial, and switches to pay that get a cape pre 20. I know I didn't and that's as 'from the start' as you get.

Theres only one face that even remotely looks doglike and it looks tremendously stupid on any sort of armor sets and they don't even give a dog/wolf tail as a belt item.

They don't allow you to add armor or helms to monstrous faces either, that would help the issue so much.