Hyperstrike

In short, BITE ME. If you want to avoid the market over something neither you, nor I, nor any other non-dev player can control KNOCK YOURSELF OUT. Stop casting aspersions at me and others who use the market because some impatient jack-hole MIGHT decide to use RMT and the money would flow back to us.

Oh yeah. You "talked with them" before coming to your moral decision? Okay...

Hate to say it kiddo, but yeah. Yeah you did.

Yet you began the post I'm responding to now by DOING THE SAME DAMN THING!

What you're practicing your "ethics" in the same way the Westboro Baptist Church practices theirs.

So pardon my blatant disgust.

That works out to about 480 people. The last numbers we got for player population were in the neighborhood of 125,000 players.

That's about .384%. So for every one person you have producing PVP IOs, you have AT LEAST 260 people who aren't, and a good chunk of those want PVP IOs too.

Adjust for the fact that not all PVPers are looking to produce IOs at the fastest possible rate.
Adjust for the stupid-low drop rate of the IOs themselves.
Adjust for the fact that at least some of the product is being consumed internally (people who generate PVP IOs are using them themselves)
Adjust for the fact that not all of the PVP IOs are considered "valuable".
Plus whatever factors I don't have time to think about right now.

Is it REALLY any wonder that they're as rare and expensive as they are?


Squirtgun in a firestorm.

The "typical" player (whatever that supposedly is) isn't being marginalized. That doesn't mean they should be allowed to simply pick up extremely rare recipies/IOs for little more than the price of a piece of common salvage.


No. Nothing "pushes people to RMT" other than greed. The prices on the market are a function of how the market works. What you're trying to claim is something along the lines of "The prices of super-high-end sports cars pushes people to rob banks".

Obviously not true.
You work towards your goal or you do without. One of the few truly plain and simple things out there.

Yep. And those are the ones who'll get their account locked and have to completely do without their toon.

No, it'll decrease because people start publicly, messily losing accounts.

I understand what you're attempting to say. It's just wrong.

And more, because obtaining massive quantities of "ultra-rare" items is now trivialized, it removes the impetus for some people to continue playing.

No, we DON'T. Vichy? Much?

You have that backwards.


Drugs are bad. M'kaaay?

You missed the point.

Sigh. Having to explain blatant symbolism...

What it means is that you can't simply treat it like a store. It's not. It's much more volatile and dynamic.

Again, nobody is advocating you (or anyone else) take up hardcore marketing or hardcore farming or hardcore ANYTHING, save picking up some hardcore PATIENCE.

A little marketing, a little farming, and a little patience and pretty much ANYONE can be sitting on several hundred million inf. With a little more patience, a little more time, and maybe a little more farming (technically if you continue playing the game past L50, you're at least NOMINALLY farming) and that amount goes from millions with an M to billions with a B.

Will it happen in a week? No. Will it Happen in a month. Maybe. Maybe not.

People who demand it simply be made "cheaper and easier" because they don't want to put the time and effort in ARE lazy. So if the shoe fits...

Nothing wrong with that. I mainly stick with commons until such a time as the toon can afford the stuff themselves. So I have two toons with purples on them. The rest have other sets on them or commons or even SOs on them.

As I've said (repeatedly), it doesn't HAVE to be. I can actually have a race to see what happens first. Level 20 or 20 million inf from marketeering. All with minimal effort. There have been only two times I've put crazy amounts of effort in.

One was during the last DXPW when people were buying commons for literally 10x what I was crafting them for. I'd say mom momma didn't raise no dummy, but I have two brothers...

And no, I wasn't listing for max price. Not even close. When someone pays a million inf for a L30 IO, you gotta wonder about some people.

The other time was a few weeks back when some of the marketeers challenged themselves to see how much inf they could make in...IIRC an hour from a brand new character. One hour netted me about half a million during a slow period (11AM Central in the middle of the week).

Was I trying to be "evil" for either of these?

Nope!

The first instance was me trying to keep people supplied while making a bit on the side (if not me, someone else would have).

The second was just to see what I could do.

No. No you don't.

1. You do not have to buy inf. You never did.
2. You don't need a niche. Niches are merely more profitable than general marketeering (at least in the short term).
3. You don't need to farm in a hardcore manner.

Again, the cumulative effect of light-to-moderate marketing and light-to-moderate farming will get you there without excessive grind.

Then stop and look for another way.

Hey, someone griped earlier about my serial posting.

Now you taste the wrath of a "War and Peace" single post!

That and being able to type 130+ wpm helps shorten it.

If that's the way you wanna look at it. Knock yourself out!

See: GAME

Anecdote == Evidence

Again, it gives them something to work for. If they want it all RIGHT NOW, then they're doomed to disappointment. PERIOD.

As someone else said earlier. Occam's Razor.

Then bid your ideal price on the stuff you want and wait for it JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE DOES.

Yup. Just because you decide to slap an arbitrary timeframe (RIGHT FRICKIN' NAO!) on things doesn't make it unfeasible.

While not QUITE what the marketing group on Freedom is doing, yeah. What the freedom group is doing is parking toons at the desirable levels and generating more stuff in those bands so they can actually bring it to market instead of seeing it sit at 60 million with none available and none sold for the last 4 months.

Yep, but you presented them as the only options. False choice is a rather dishonest argumentative style. And honestly, you can't say "most" will pick. You're simply making an argument with no facts and another argument of "you don't know people the way I do" to back you.

So you're arguing opinion and spurious quantities like "most", "lots", and "everyone". I'm arguing economic principle. If you just want to rant your opinion and not have people call you to task for it just say so.

I say let the dummies use them. Let them be blatant about it and get their precious accounts locked because they were too stupid to just play the game and had to be on BlingQuest.

That's your problem right there. Failure to realize that the situation is caused by greater demand from people who are in a position to PAY for the items in question already.

Again, if you want the stuff, work for it just like everyone else. If you don't want to do the work, you don't want it badly enough.

And those that turn to illicit means will get their accounts locked. More power to em!

Yup. And demands that the market tailor itself to your wants is nothing more than a severely overinflated sense of self-entitlement.



I will say it again, since you were too obtuse to understand it the first three dozen times it's been said.

THE
SELLER
DOES
NOT
SET
THE
SALE
PRICE
THE
BUYER
DOES


If I list a Hecatomb for 100 inf and someone buys it for 130 million, how exactly have *I* helped the poor schmuck "suck the Inf-seller's pipe"?

Hmm?

I'll wait a while while you formulate an answer. I'm patient. I can stave off death by old age for a while...

Again, you have nothing but speculation about this. See ZERO PROOF.
If you did, you'd have something the devs could actually use to filter these *BLEEP!*suckers out better.

Essentially, rather than sticking to arguments that won't advance your point, you'd rather cast aspersions that anyone who drops north of 9 figures for something must be getting it from an inf seller.

Bernie was running a Ponzi scheme. Nobody here is doing that (at least to my knowledge).

No, you'll just name-drop and try to cast the aspersion in a passive-aggressive manner.

Ah, again with the passive-aggressive aspersions.

Who said I'm laughing? Inf is merely a tool for me to further my own character development. I'd PREFER that none of it came from RMT coffers. But, seeing as I have no way to differentiate, I take what I can get.

I'm defending your perceived status quo because the alternatives that have been proposed would be horrendous and would exacerbate the problem, not ameliorate it.

Nope. You're definitely the one. And no, I won't beg your pardon for telling you so in a blunt manner.




No. No it won't. I wish it were otherwise, but it won't.

Unless you've worked in the gaming industry, less than I do.

That the problem. I HAVE thought outside the box. I've already thought through the ramifications of what you're proposing and find the end product unfeasible and insupportable.

We agree on this.

Part of the problem is people who expect to get The Good Stuff without having to work for it.

Part of the problem is a subset of the group above that, when frustrated, turn to cheats to help them get their perceived "due".


Because in some cases they ARE superior. Thus people desire them.

People purpling out a toon simply for completion's sake, regardless of the whether the sets do what they want them to do is idiocy. But it's THEIR idiocy. As I can't control it, and since they set the price of a sale, I have no say outside of this commentary here.

You missed a lot of griping about Archmage didn't you?

Simply because a group of people gripe about something doesn't mean there is something wrong.

And you've been told why your solution about capping prices won't work, yet still continue to argue it. Who's got their fingers in their ears here?

And I suggest you do your own fact-finding and stop trying to task me with proving your own point.

Ah. Again with the aspersions.

Needless to say, I understand the socio-economic pressures here. Probably at least as well as you do. My problem is that I have no control over greedy, lazy, underhanded people. And since I can't pick them out from legitimate buyers in a blind bid system, I have to take the system as I find it.

Besides the point. Simply wanting something doesn't mean you should have it handed to you on your own terms. Regardless of how intense that sense of desire is.

Pardon my skepticism.

Your post count is irrelevant. As is your attempt at self-deprecation.

Wow. A hundred? On one whole server! Woo! That must make you right? Right? That's almost a tenth of a percent of the total player base!

Again, not my problem. I don't use them. I actively encourage people NOT to use them. I have zero way of telling if a buyer is a farmer, an old-timer with lots of money, an aggressive marketeer, or an RMT'er. I have zero control over WHOM I sell to. My only control is the minimum price I'm willing to accept. I refuse to let you try to guilt me into some boneheaded plan simply because I *MIGHT* wind up with fund laundered by RMT.

Again, what you're asking for is NOT a market. It's a store.

Well, if you insist...



There. That make you feel better. More martyred?

Again, your decision to self-gimp is none of my concern.

Bull. You obviously care or you wouldn't have spent all the time you have responding to me.

That's not why I posted them. Someone asked if they could see them and I popped the picture up for them. Nothing more was intended.


Then there's NCSoft Prescient.

Flippers only contribute to the inflation of the price floor but only as a reaction to buyers. Buyers contribute to the inflation of both the price floor and the price ceiling.

As new supply is generated constantly from (essentially) nothing, it makes it VERY difficult to corner a market like this. Usually they cause a short term blip in the prices and stuff levels out again.

No, but calling people lazy because they don't want to do what the marketers do and still want everything "NOW" is.

Again, how are the marketeers at fault for your lifestyle choice?

Again, how are the marketeers at fault for your lifestyle choice?

If you don't want to do these things, you don't have to. You simply have to resign yourself to the fact that it will take longer to get the nice stuff you want.

Again, the equation isn't binary here. You can do a little of everything and still make modest monetary games. You don't even need to spend a lot of time with it.

Its kinda like Willpower. Less defense than straight defense sets. Less resistance than straight resist sets. Less healing ability than regen. Yet, due to the unique synergy between the three factors, it's hybrid solution comes out as HIGHLY capable.

So this essentially boils down to "I don't like the current market system because I don't like the behavior engendered in sellers by buyers willing to pay omega level stupid prices for stuff that's been listed at a far lower price floor."

O-kaaaay! Nice to know!

So if you listed a 1990 Dodge Caravan minivan in the paper for $1000, and someone came along and dropped a check on you for $35,000 you wouldn't be absolutely incredulous too?

Oh they'd be different all right.

Actually you have no way of knowing this.

Marketeering puts in a price floor as well as a price ceiling. It defines an area of "acceptable" pricing. The more people who do it in a certain niche, the closer the floor and ceiling become and the more the price stabilizes.

Could a single purchase in a completely uncontrolled environment be less than this equilibrium price? Sure! Could it be more! Yeah!

As with any new market, it takes time to find equilibrium pricing. And changes in the market (Merits, AE, PVP IOs, inf earnings increases, etc) will all trigger periods of adjustment until a new equilibrium pricing is found.

Blaming it on the marketeers is just your way of finding a scapegoat.

You're half right. They WANT to buy these things.

No. You're wrong. Buyer and seller together establish the price. The seller simply sets a price floor, which the buyer tacitly agrees to. The buyer sets the price ceiling. With sustained high price ceilings, the price floor eventually creeps up.

You can't guarantee anything.

Is that Biblical Truth?
911 Truth?

We're not interested in "truth". We're interested in FACT. The former is a nebulous, highly relative term. The latter is not.

Try actually reading the forum son. People come here with screenies of someone bidding 2 billion on a recipe due to DISBELIEF that anyone actually would bid that much. They point out their

Let's see. They're saying "I don't want to pay that much or work that much BUT I DESERVE IT ANYHOW. AND RIGHT NAO!"

What's the word you'd use for this sense of entitlement?


Observant? If they were observant, they'd know that there are things you need to do to get nice stuff in the game. Since the game is a time sink, it takes a while. They don't want to wait that long.

It's called "you don't understand what you're talking about.

And no, I won't sugar-coat that for you.

We'll just have to agree to disagree then.

The point remains this. Even if they pull out un-gettable recipies, there are still things on the market that no longer award that can be used for reservations of inf.

Argue that all you like.

Got to get a bigger gun...

My head is nodding back and forth! I cannot help myself! My common sense has overcome me! AUUUGH! (Mudder!)

While the cheap bastich in me recoils at the thought of spending that much on a badge that does nothing, even if it came with a costume, I'd probably buy it (eventually). I have the CoH equivallent of Three Stooges Syndrome. I'm a base geek, a badger, a marketeer, and...and...and..

Re: Montgomery Burns

Yup. And you've done a FINE job thus far!

NOT!



I think you need to step the implantation technique up from conventional explosives to something a bit more powerful. Maybe something like nukes...in the three digit exaton yield range.

Here's his stats from the anniversary event last year.

I've looked at a more recent screenshot and it hasn't changed.
Click for the full-sized image.

You're just saying you don't want to HAVE to. That the stuff should be EASIER to obtain.

Sorry. The charge of lazy beatnik still applies at that point.

Why should others be penalized because YOU choose to self-gimp on some cockeyed "moral" grounds?

YES. Otherwise the game is a rapid gear-quest to the top and then people drop it after a month or so.

Yeah. If you want something you do what's necessary to obtain it.
If you aren't willing to do that, you didn't want it badly enough.
And humans tend to like "easier" as opposed to "harder". Therefore they'll look to achieve optimal results for minimal investiture.
Some lazy, greedy bums are always going to want stuff just HANDED to them because they feel the world OWES them.

Does Captain Obvious want to teach us anything else we already know?

Again, there are more options than just these three. Please remove your blinders.

We're not arguing about what people are "most likely to do" based off your narrow perception of an issue.

And you can get your account locked for it.

I am not my brother's keeper and have no way to control the actions of others.

And what am I supposed to do about that?

List stuff for less so someone "more deserving" can get it? No, because it's still highest-bidder wins.

Inspect every last inf to see if it says "generated by RMT"? Yes, I'm laughing at you right now.

What I CAN do is trust that the people who make and run the game will catch these people in the act and lock their accounts, effectively destroying any inf they have.

They're never going to stop. PERIOD. The most the developers can hope to do is make it as rough on them as possible and remove as much of the profit from the equation as they can.

Neither. If the market is crippled, people will do it off the market.

It can't.

Just because it's doable doesn't mean it's smart either.

No. The assumption is all yours. I'm saying that you're wrong for asking to have to do LESS to get the same shinies that other people have spent lots of time and effort on obtaining.

A) Expecting the world to change simply because of your perception as "not fun" is laughable (or would be if it weren't so sad).

B) How is it "unfair"? If they want the stuff they can get it as a random drop JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE. Or they can work towards it as a goal JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE.

Again, you're just saying you want to work LESS for it. That's all.

This is a discussion on a forum with someone that apparently doesn't understand the repercussions of what he's asking for. Of if he does, is simply doing so for selfish reasons.

There's no "winning" there. Never has been. I'm merely trying to make you see reason. Please take your hands off your eyes.

Whether or not you can afford the items now is immaterial. You're simply asking they be made ARTIFICIALLY CHEAPER for you.

Again, this is why it's a MARKET. Not a STORE. And the only manipulation here is being in the right place at the right time when you have something someone else is stupid enough to sell their soul for. If I list something for a million and someone bids 2 billion on it, how in the name of Bob did "I" take advantage of THEM?

I pause while you take a few days to sort out your thought process.

Again, you haven't gotten lucky with drops, so you demand to be equalized with those that do by artifical means. Again, if you don't want to take the time and effort necessary to buy purples, you don't want them that badly.

Uhm. Your grammar is somewhat...distorted here.

Are you trying to say that people who market are sustaining an unethical/illegal market?

Or are you saying RMT'ers are?

If the latter, I'll agree with you.

If the former, you're delusional.

I do not RMT. End of story.

Howabout this choice:

D) Farm a little, flip a little, be patient with purchases and don't sit there doing Queen with "I want it all. I want it all. I WANT IT ALL. AND I WANT IT NAO!"?

The fact that you look at it as single choice is laughable.

Well DUH! There are no other ways to generate purples. The problem is people who expect to simply be able to pick them up "because they want them".

The solution isn't to cap prices. That'll simply destroy all supply or move them completely out of consignment house transactions.

Why is it always false-choice with you? Hybrid approaches work too. As does patience. Yeah, you don't want to take a couple weeks or months to build up to a purple purchase. We get that. Boo hoo.

Good. Now show me a document stating the creator's intentions?

No because that's just arguing YOUR opinion as well.

I don't bet.

Then why'd you post in the first place?


Ah. Now we move on to the personal attack rather than supporting your arguments with...y'know...DATA.

FAIL!

My day job is as a network architect. I don't have any advanced economics education. And I don't put tons and tons of time into the market. Yet I've managed to rake in several billion quite easily and without major impact on the time I spend smashing bad guy face.

THEN DO IT!

'nuff said.

If you don't want to use the consignment house DON'T USE IT. Just be aware that you're putting yourself at a distinct disadvantage to those who do. Note, I said YOU are. Nobody else is.

I understand that you want it simplified into a more store-like environment. Sorry, that ain't gonna happen.

Yep. Fortunately, some of us don't try to make others live by OUR definition of "fun".

You forget, some of them have fun by playing the market too. I'm not one of them. I view the market as a tool to multiply my earnings so I can afford nice stuff sooner.

Then why are you discriminating against marketeers?

The game ALREADY has lots of venues for equal opportunity.

1. The random drop.
2. Merits
3. Tickets

None of these require interaction with another player.

The market is ALSO equal opportunity. You, however aren't talking about equal opportunity. You're talking about trivializing hard work so that people who don't put the effort into the game can get all the nicest stuff for cheap.

There is NO such thing as an "average" gamer.

I don't do any of these things. I play 1-4 hours a day, 3-6 days a week. I spend a couple minutes per play session managing my market slots and the bulk of my time playing. Yet I can afford to blow huge chunks of inf on multiple purple sets and you cannot. Yet you are screaming for cheaper stuff and I'm not.

Why the differential? Sense of entitlement. You have it. I don't.

The playing field is as level as it gets. What you're asking for is a cart to ferry you across because it's too much EFFORT to walk.

What you're talking about would simply devalue ultra-rare items IF it worked (which it wouldn't). More likely though is that it's simply drive such transactions out of the consignment house.

I'm not the one demanding that price caps be put on things to make things I cannot afford suddenly affordable.

Drop rates are random. And, on teams, they're doled out to random members of a team. It's entirely possible to run an 8-man mission and have one person come out loaded down while another comes out with NOTHING.

Random means random.

Actually it's not repeatable as drops are, as mentioned, random. Additionally, your sample size, while conveniently sized for attempts at repetition are too small to yield long-term drop data. As such, your particular runs could be HIGHLY skewed from the normalized data in a much larger set.


Again, no it would NOT. You'd simply see prices creep up to the cap, then move off-market into a gray-market barter system for higher prices. The reason you don't see this behavior with things like TO/DO/SO enhancements is because they're readily available from stores.

Ah. Great reason to do something. To piss people off.

*Facepalm*

THEM'S FIGHTIN' WORDS!

PL'in muh post count.

Second, it's not technically double-posting. I'm answering individual, distinct posts in a serial fashion.

I don't normally amalgamate posts as it's too easy to be accused of misquoting, twisting words, or all sorts of other nasty argumentative strategies designed solely to ignore and pooh-pooh the validity of my points.

I'm sorry if you dislike my posting style. But that's about as far as I'm going to go.

Arguably it needs more.

I agree with this. I can understand WHY it was implemented this way. But there have been massive repercussions due to them.

My point exactly.

However, what we're talking about with Purples and stuff is the difference between buying a Porche and buying a McLaren F1.

To the GAME? No. To the MARKET? Theoretically, yes.


The problem, still, lies with impatient, greedy people and their sense of entitlement. Were it not for them, you wouldn't HAVE RMTers.

Wrong. You don't need them. But if you want them, you have to put in the effort to attain them. Going to an RMTer only exacerbates the problem.

Because if they're dipping their hands into purples and PVP IOs they're no longer, by definition, a CASUAL gamer.

Yes. You DO get ahead by working harder. Marketing effectively means:

1. You don't have to work AS hard OR
2. You accumulate more nice stuff at a faster pace

And nobody "deserves" this stuff. Again, that's entitlement talking. Rare items in-game are rare for a reason (or several reasons). If you want them, you have to put effort into it. Period. Nobody values something they get cheaply.

Please don't talk about developer intentions for gameplay as if your personal definition applies.

If you just want the stuff from a store, or super-cheaply, you have a complete misunderstanding of the market.

NOBODY. They're luxury items to be worked toward. Work toward them, like the rest of us do.

Again, continued use of the term "deserves" implies a sense of entitlement.

Your $15 a month grants you access to the game. Nothing more. You were never promised that someone would just HAND you all the best stuff in the game.

And most of what you see for sale are the results of:

1. Lucky drops
2. Lots and lots of play in conjunction with the first