Hallowed

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Umm Lighthouse? How could you suck all of the bad things out of the game like this? What will people complain about now?


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Surely you jest.

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I didnt' see any CoV specific stuff in there, heck I didn't even see CoV mentioned in there!

Clearly the Devs hate CoV.



What? You knew it was coming...


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LOL... beat me too it.

Back on topic, if this is the influence/result of the NCSoft take-over, I'm very upbeat about the future of this game. Thank you Devs and NCSoft.

LH, can you confirm if things like real numbers are only seeing the light of day due to the new administration (and lack o' Jack)?

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So he was the gynecologist at the birth of CoH. Great stuff. But the game's grown and moved on. Time for a pediatrician, don't need a gynecologist any more.

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Thanks LightSide, now i have a mental image of a GvE box with legs spread out on an exam table and Statesman's helmet tinkering under the hospital gown.

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Ok, I think I may have pulled something laughing so hard at that image...

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My concern is that it'll turn into SWG all over again.

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I am an optimist on this score. The industry saw the player reaction to the shenanigans with SWG and I hope that something was learned.

Also, my personal opinion is that if anything, CoX will not get that kind of changes, but will be used as a cash cow to set up the rest of the franchise - whether this is MMO/single player games in different styles or even a sequel, where they go to town with crazy ideas good and bad.

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I agree 100% with spidermonster on this. Statesman left CoX over a year ago to help develop Marvell Online. Everyone else who has been working on CoX for the last (awesome) year is moving with the game to the new studio. Even grumpy, yet lovable BAB...

Any similarity between this news and SWG's "New Game Enhancement" debacle is, well, I just am not seeing it.

Cautiously optimistic...

-Buxley

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I'm grumpy but loveable?

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Yep. Or snarky but endearing. Or blunt but refreshing. Or brusque but amusing. Or...

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how did this become a cov vs Coh Discussion, we have other threads for that

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Essentially it's grown into a debate about what model new content should follow if there are future paid expansions.

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Yup. But it is admittedly somewhat off-topic. Sorry if I've started/contributed to a thread-jack. Heh... haven't even said what I think of THE ANNOUNCEMENT.

I see the potential for this to be an incredible opportunity for the continuation and growth of my favorite game. I can also see the potential for abject disaster. Most likely, it'll be more like "business as usual" which, if that means things'll continue as they have for the last year, is overall a good thing in my opinion.

I think the conflict of interest between having both CoX and MUO had to factor in Cryptic's decision to sell the CoX IP. I would not be surprised at all if they were given an incentive by either Marvel or MS to divest themselves of the competing product.

Fortunately, the way in which this has happened is pretty much a best-case scenario. All the significant people who've been involved in CoX in a meaningful manner recently (sorry Jack, that's not you anymore) are still on board, with a publisher, who has always been involved in this game now owning it. The fact that they're investing in setting up a new development studio, with CoX/the CoX dev team at the center, seems a very positive sign. Now, eventually, we'll loose talent to other projects within the new studio, but that happens eventually anyways.

For now, I'm taking an optimistic wait-and-see approach.

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On all my servers, Galaxy is the starting zone of choice for any players that does not want to stare at a mass inane broadcast about sewer trials and costume contest and share the lag of 100 players all dancing under the Atlas statue. To me, it is a necessity: it provides a nice solo experience, there are many willing to team there just for a change of pace.

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Interesting. On my servers, Galaxy is a ghost city.

It used to be my favorite starting zone way back in the day (initially I just liked the name, I think, and also the layout for going street-hunting). Nowadays, every new toon starts in AP, if for no other reason than that it gives me easier access to the Hollows, I can quickly find a team there, and I really don't experience much lag. With every issue, when the devs keep adding stuff to AP (like the Vanguard base), I shake my head and say "Why could this not go into Galaxy? Give me a reason to go there..." The random chatter can equally amuse or annoy me.

Btw, it's Hallowed not Hallow... but I suppose I should just be happy you didn't call me Hollowed

CoH still has the best travel system in MMORPGs. CoV has the same travel system, but does not needlessly force you to cover greater in-zone distances and/or zone as much, when you're looking to go from mish to mish. You also tend to get the option to call your contact quicker and so spend less time getting your next mish. I just don't see the downside to this.

It does not prevent you from running/flying/leaping around and enjoying the zone. There are times I feel like running the "streets" and beating up on random outdoor spawns (or just cruising the zone and admiring it). There are (more) times when I want to run mishs, because they are more interesting... both from a story aspect and from a combat perspective.

Btw, as I previously stated, the zone design was probably one of the biggest complaints I heard about CoH. Too many zones just looked too similar. Never really bothered me, but that doesn't mean I don't see it.

Look... if I'm playing a game that involves going out into the great unknown (be it space, ancient ruins or a jungle), then I get the whole "get a team together with a good strategy just so I can get to this part of the world. That's not what I look for in this game. Our playground is a city, or a set of small islands. You're not exploring the unknown regions here. Unless, that is, you're going to the Shadow-Shard... and there travel gets a bit more complicated (poor SSers).

Just to combat your premise that simplification is what "the next generation of gamers" crave, let's just say that my 1st game-system was the Pong console (not even sure that term is appropriate, lol)...

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"Bad design shortcuts" was creating a grand total of 6 zones (Mercy, Oaks, Cap, Sharkhead, Nerva, St. Martial, +1 if you count I7) and cramming those full of important stuff, making the gameworld as a whole feel incredibly small. Why make two zones 2/3s of the size when you could cram everything into one?

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Personally, with the exception of Faultline/Striga Isle, I find the CoV zones more compelling and better designed than the ones in CoH. They all have a more distinct look/feel. A common complaint from people I know who tried CoH, but didn't stick with it, was that "all the zones looked the same". While that is overstating it, and no longer as true as it once was, I do see where they're coming from. I don't hear that complaint about CoV,

The smaller size is a boon. It means less time of running from mish to mish (not to mention the improved mish structure in CoV, which is much less likely to make you run from zone to zone...). Also, less zones means it's easier to get base teleporters to each zone.

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"Bad design shortcuts" was keeping everyone contained within the same zone for 10 levels a stretch where City of Heroes mixes things up a bit.

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Ok, but some of the zones you can choose from to "mix things up" might as well not exist... take Galaxy City for example... the red-headed step-child of CoH.

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Good storytelling and good stories replaced by short arcs just so there are more of them, no single one-off missions in addition to that, no hunt missions for those who like them...

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Personally, I like shorter arcs. It tends to mean more diversity in the types of mishs and mobs I fight, because I can move on to new contacts/story arcs (12+ mishis in a row fighting nothing but sprockets? No thanks). Also, the CoV mishs tend to have more AVs/EBs in them (at least until you get into the higher lvls), which makes them more interesting/challenging. Shorter stories =\= bad stories... see comics.

And... there are people who like hunt mishs?!? Clearly you move in different circles than I. Almost everyone I know views them as an annoying barrier/timesink to moving on to "real" mishs. Btw, there are hunt mishs in CoV, but thankfully, there are a lot less.

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CoV may or may not have had things actually designed better, but it shipped with a lot less actual done on it than the original CoH, and a whole bunch else just copied whole-sale from CoH. As an expansion, it was very rich and rewarding. As a standalone game, it's very, very lacking.

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I will give you that in certain regards there was more, content-wise, to CoH (not at its launch but at the time CoV launched) than to CoV. Like epic ATs, some more GMs and TFs. But, with few exceptions, the implementations were of a higher quality. Inherents are far better integrated/implemented into the villain ATs than they are into heroes (understandable, given that they were after-thoughts for heroes, while villains were developed with them in mind). There is more to the GMs in CoV... like the horde of Scrapyarders that follow Ghost of Scrapyard around... the fact that he has an expansive story that you can learn of from your contact mishs... the fact that he doesn't just stand in one place, but "goes for a walk". I don't think you can even argue that the TFs in CoV are not better implemented. Positron's TF anyone?

Plus, there are (oddly enough to me) still, to this day, people that only play CoV. That speaks for its quality as a stand-alone product. Of course those people will now have access to CoH, if they want it or not.

I guess my major issue with your post (and the one that drew out an oh-so-rare post from me) was describing CoV as a "bum deal". I think that was a grossly inaccurate and unfair characterization. If you were not completely satisfied with CoV, then that's all good and well. You are entitled to your opinion. But a "bum deal" translates into "rip-off" (at least to me) and CoV was not that... in any way.

Most retail expansions to MMORPGs tend to sell for $30+ (at time of release). CoV was $50, the same price as most major new games. CoV gave you an included month of play (a $15 value). You don't get that from other expansions. So, at worst, CoV was a $35 ($50-$15) expansion. The $5 difference between that and a "normal" expansion, is an amazing value, given how much new content was added.

/rant, lol

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Maybe that means we'll get more stuff for free with each Issue. Though I just fear it means either a CoH 2 or another paid expansion, meaning we still won't get much more per Issue. And if the expansion adds as much as CoV did, then that, my friends, is a bum deal.


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Ok Samuel_Tow, rather than state my utter, complete and incredulous disagreement with that statement (oops... too late), I will instead ask you to explain how you come to it. I can't recall another paid expansion to any MMORPG ever offering even a portion of the new content that came with CoV.

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We've been told Power Customization simply because it would mean a huge amount of work. They will have more employees soon. It's not unreasonable to think it might be on the table again.


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It is much more involved than just that. The huge amount of time is one factor but if that had been all they would have moved forward on doing power customization. The cold hard reality is that the games core engine doesn't support it. And to make it support it requires a major rewrite of portions of the system.

Now that said there is nothing preventing NCSoft Norcal from hiring a team specifically to redesign and rewrite the games core engine. But even if they did that I wouldn't expect to see results from it before mid 2009 if that soon.

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If they are going to re-write the entire core engine (or at least large portions of it) I would expect to see that in Co*2, when it eventually comes out (I think that it's pretty much a given that it eventually will). That scale of an overhaul seems unlikely for an existing game. A completely new game engine would seem, to me, to be something you'd slate for a new game.

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Full Access to City of Heroes and City of Villains®
All players with City of Heroes retail* accounts will now have access to City of Villains, and all City of Villains retail* accounts will now have access to City of Heroes. Players that didn't previously have access to "the other side" will find that they do now. Just log in to check it out!

So for the people that bought CoH and CoV what do we get.

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Based on your reg date, 2.5+yrs of game-play.