Haetron

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[severe snippage]... why are we being marketed to again? We already play.

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Because it's an MMORPG that relies on continued income from subscriptions. We're not being marketing to get us to play, we're being marketed to get us to keep playing, and, by extension, to keep paying.

The difference is most likely profound to someone with a background in advertising or public relations, but to an IT nerd like me, it's minimal.

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Yes, but this isnt a good way to do that either. As someone that is constantly bouncing off that bubble of cancelling, marketing to the people in that mindset in this way is a huge mistake, because you're only increasing the backlash over "poor set choices" being swapped over from that type of player. The player that is considering leaving wants answers -now- normally.

Telling a customer considering departing that you'll bring him good news "tommorow" isn't really good retention, or marketing.

Oddly, for a change, Im fairly happy with the direction the game is taking, and am already sold on the issue due to finally getting VEATs, and any issue with new power set combinations and ways to play the game, is a good issue.

But as somebody that sells services and tries to retain services, I think this "marketing attempt" is just about the worst thing you could actually do.

Im just confused as to who they're actually trying to market to. Non-players are going to see that, read through it, realize there's no information in it, and not bother checking tommorow, because if they had the interest in CoH to check for daily updates, they'd probably already be playing.

And yes, it works out great as a teaser for people that are already playing and paying for the game, but... why are we being marketed to again? We already play.

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The best satire doesn't advertise, but much like porn and obscenity, we still know it when we see it.

The fact that it's copied almost word for word from the 'Why you should never, ever play Dark Armor' thread might have been a hint.

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You won't see a thread titled that.

Guess it's just more reading between the lines though!

That said..

Should I even bother? Would numbers and datamining I'll keep promising but never produce be enough to counter a well thought out analysis based on experience that could have been skewed in the first place? Would it even be worth the effort?

Probably not. I shall ponder.

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First Question, do they have dictionaries in South Carolina? I know they do in NC, but on the chance you're near one, please look up the word satire. Sa-ti-er.

Second, maybe next time in your rush to seem 'more right' or 'witty', you won't go calling people idiots when its pretty clear to the rest of us that the only one who didn't get it, was in fact you. Hence the old adage, better to keep quiet and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and confirm it.

Just a bit of friendly advice.

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Doesn't change the fact some of his facts are flat out wrong, unlike the guide he's satiring.

((Cute. Let's see where this one goes. There's a lot flat out wrong in the guide, but Ill play along in the spirit of the other guide instead of trying to debate any actual points.))


ZOMG U CNT TELL PPL TO NOT PLY STUFFZ.

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My experience is based on the performance of a MA/DA Scrapper.

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STHU and GTHO mah Brute thread?

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Moreover, you refer fairly frequently to team performance of the sets, and while not every team contains a /Kin, one that does lets DA absolutely turn loose. Indeed, it wasn't until I was once boosted by a Kin that I truly had my eyes opened to how powerful the set was, as I survived - and defeated - a spawn that wiped out the rest of my team because I could fire DR more often and keep in endurance.

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Thanks for supporting the fact the entire set is crutched by Dark Regeneration.

Also, please check the original post for use of the terms team, and group. I don't see how I fairly frequently referred to it, when I used the term Team once, and Group none.

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Because of that, I focused my build on strong endurance slotting of my attacks and greatly improved my overall end burn. Now with IOs the options are much more diverse and I can get all the endurance slotting I had and more with no meaningful sacrifice in accuracy, damage or recharge.

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Blah blah blah IOs make me great. Good for you?

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It's arguable that no armor set except possibly ELA or Invul benefits as much from IOs, because of all the toggles it has for them. Expensive? Possibly - it depends on what you go for. Even just "frankenslotting" the armors for DR/end is extremely attractive, but you can also easily go for +recovery/+end. Positional defense is also popular.

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Its not even arguable. Dark Armor allows for slotting of Fear and Stun sets as well as one Defense set, 3 Resistance Sets, and a Heal set, and heck, a To-Hit buff set too. It does offer tons of options if you choose to start sinking the money into IO builds. More Challenge, or someone earlier mentioned, concept from Inventions.

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Never does the guide once say "zomg Devs, plz help Dark Armor" because I don't believe by most standards, it needs "Dev Help."

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I cannot accept that you would not condone that a set you would advise people to "never play" doesn't need help, or that, conversely, that anyone should advise that a set that doesn't need help should be a "never play" on the basis of factual performance metrics.

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It's natural in these types of games where there are multiple "set choices" that one has to be the lowest performer out of the box. In some cases, these choices pay off in the end game by exceeding their own limitations, but the problem with Dark Armor is that it never actually quite does that without serious effort on the part of the dark armor user, be it proper building and slotting, or handpicking a team to cover your multiple weak spots.

Sorry if you can't accept that Im personally able to say "This set is the weakest choice available" without it being "zomg devs, plz fix my set" but that sounds like a personal trust issue on your end.


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It's never said to be "Useless" and I actually say that several reasons to play the set is for challenge or concept.

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For a great many people who play games like this, being the best and brightest is all it's about. This is the source of lots of advice you see in game about what sets people should and shouldn't take. It's incredibly naive of you to think that making the assertion that the set is only good for concept or challenge isn't tantamount to telling people it's a steaming heap of dung. Ergo: it's useless.

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If that's what they want to take out of the guide, that's on them. What -is- the set good for that other sets don't provide?

Melee Control? Yes, mentioned that. Don't personally find it valuable, but I did mention it.

Fear Protection? This comes up, what, twice in the PVE game? There's a Tsoo boss that uses fear, that's the only thing I recall encountering.

Psionic Protection? Yes, the set provides it, but it's not the only set that does anymore, and other sets do almost as good a job at it, without giving up multiple weak spots as a trade.

Dark Regeneration? Hands down the most powerful self-heal in the game, like I said, six slot it and stick it under your arm, it's your crutch.

If there's anything else the set itself provides that no other armor secondary doesn't provide as well, how about you be the grand enlightening poobah and open my eyes?

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Just because a majority believe A, doesn't mean A is the case.

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When it's a matter of describing the message delivered in written text, it does. It doesn't matter what the author intended, it matters what the author achieved. If people read the author's text regulawrly interpret it in a similar way then the simple fact is that the author's word choice and overall structure is delivering a patricular message.

Here are the messages I can find in this guide.
[*] "Don't ever play Dark Armor as a Brute." (Explicitly stated.)[*] "Dark Armor's mitigation is lower than any other set's." (Aggregated through attempt at illustration. Debatable.)[*] "Dark Amor for Brutes should receive dev attention because it's so bad." (Easy to infer from such strong assertions about its low performance.)[*] "Dark Armor is ineffective/pointless/useless" (Predictable condensation of the guide's message into chat messages with friends.)

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That list of conclusions is consisted of wilder leap after leap and just plain out wishing the guide says things it does not. Never does the guide once say "zomg Devs, plz help Dark Armor" because I don't believe by most standards, it needs "Dev Help." It's never said to be "Useless" and I actually say that several reasons to play the set is for challenge or concept. I actually said that Dark Armor is -fine- for concept or challenge purposes, that pretty much opposes the fact Im saying NEVER play a Dark Armor brute, and the same people complaining about my mitigation statements are the ones saying "Well Tier9s don't count! They're not fair!" and ignoring things like MaxHP buffs.


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Additionally: Reiraku is right to attempt to pull away the strawman arguement being attributed to the OP. I have no experience with /DA, so I don't know if his arguements are correct or incorrect, but one of the most common (and most flawed) attempts to disprove someone's arguement are to attribute things to them that they didn't say and then disprove them.

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What we're objecting to is not that the OP made these conclusions, but that he used "facts" we dispute to make it easy for a trusting reader to come to them. If you've ever wandered through the Suggestions Forum you'll find people asking questions about all sorts of things that sound like some CoH version of the "phone game," with the most bizzare-seeming misunderstandings of game mechanics that they heard third-hand. (At least some of them come and ask about them!) The last thing I want to see is this section, of all places, becoming a platform fostering those sorts of misconceptions.

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What misconceptions? You mean like misconceptions like guides that tout Dark Armor as the most survivable set in the game that don't factor in edurance usage, which is Dark Armor's weakest point, especially since it's reliant on more endurance than probably any other armor set? [Edit: Should add that Arcanaville does mention Dark Armor's endurance usage being higher than the other scrapper sets it's compared to, and that it can't perform at peak levels as a result of this, but the actual calculations used to demonstrate it's the most survivable don't factor in end cost.]

People keep talking about disputing the facts brought up in the guide, but there's little being said about most of the points brought up.

Gilfred tried to dispute the Energy Resistance being one of the weakest, with the statement that Tier 9's dont count. I played along with it, and agreed that if you don't count Tier 9's OR Max HP boosts, then the Energy Resistance weakness isn't as large.

I may have admitted it previously, Im admitting it again now, the fury loss from Oppressive Gloom/Cloak of Fear is overstated in the guide. It can be played around, and I failed to mention it in the guide.

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I can go back to your first post and remind you that for every reason including concept that a player would state why they would chose it you would say do not take it. Your very title even says the same thing. Now I see the word I was missing thanks to Ice and that is opinion. Now every guide does have some opinions. But out of all of the guides that I have seen this is the first that says to never use a set.

No guide should ever do that. A guide is there to tell you how to use it, not to avoid it becaue it is not optimal. To avoid it because it is not like the fire and forget sets. This guide and your posts are trying to sway the readers to not take it and maybe go looking for the optimal or you could say only take the best set for brutes.

I have no doubt that others that have written guides may have hated what they were writing about but kept that hatred out of their guide as they should. Because hatred causes an individual to not see straight and do things that they later regret. That is something that I have seen many times over.

Your guide can say if you want have an efficient or optimal secodary for a brute then DA is not for you. If you do not want a secondary that will make you a melee troller then DA is not for you. Then your guide should've had how to slot DA and what primaries are good for DA. Next you guide should've showed the stragety for playing the DA brute with various primaries, only showing all primaries if you have had experience with them or can easily tell how they mesh with DA.

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Why?

There was no way I could honestly write a guide that gave Dark Armor ANY kind of endorsement, from a personal opinion standpoint, but on the other side of the coin, it's a set that gets a lot of praise, but also a lot of misinformation and misrepresentation of what the set is capable of.

I think the question here, is if someone is going to give you a guide and assessment to a set, would you rather have them not point out the problems with the set, make it all glowy rosy and sweet, and then bump into those problems yourself?

People insert flavor and opinion into their guides all the time, because lots of people don't want to read a boring, cut and dry list of information about a set that has nothing but factual information and no insight by the player at all.

Gil, I've enjoyed your contributions to the thread, and sorry if you feel some form of insult at the guide itself. Dark Armor was my second 50, and I couldn't have made it if it was "unplayable". But -ESPECIALLY- in CoV, where every other 40+ mission seems to drop an EB in your lap, and more and more mobs use tactics rarely seen blue side by Dark Armor scrappers, I can't reccomend the set at all.

That would be dishonest, and it's not something Im going to do.

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I am not going to argue the view points expressed here. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, as am I. However there is a difference between facts and facts laced with opinions. Generally any fact can be used by anyone to support or refute a statement. This guide is no different in my opinion. If facts were stated without opinions then that would leave it to the reader to generate their own opinions of what they perceive the facts are. However this guide was laced with opinions which now sets up 3 camps of posts. Those that support, those that oppose and those that are on the fence.

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Don't these same 3 camps generally form about almost all power sets anyway? Granted, the fact I didn't act completely unbiased and detached from my guide may have made it more public on this post. But it's not like every guide that is posted is unbiased. Its just that if something shows bias in a favorable manner, less people are going to discuss it, because the people that don't like the subject of the guide probably won't bother even reading it. Negative opinions of anything that isn't inherently a negative itself tend to draw huge backlash.

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Personally I do not like the opinions in the guide however I can see how they are generated and at times have come to similar conclusions in my own time of analyzing Dark Armor. However those early conclusions were not accounting for DA's strengths. Which for a Melee AT are somewhat unique. While most Brute sets have one or two additional forms of Damage Mitigation besides Resistance and or Defense, Dark Armor has 5.

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Thanks for this input, but I think here, your own opinions are showing, as you don't mentions several aspects that some sets bring to the table. I mean, if you're going to consider Death Shroud and Dark Regeneration's damage as mitigation, ((And to be fair, you did point out Elec's as well)), and the 5%ToHit Debuff on CoF, you need to point out all of the strengths of each set.

Additions are in the below quote block, in bold Italic text.

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Let’s lay out the examples.

Electric Armor
Resistance
Endurance Drain
Damage
+Speed
+Recharge
Slow Resistance
Endurance Drain Resistance
Temporary Heavy Resistance Increases

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Energy Aura
Defense
Resistance
Endurance Drain
Endurance Management
Passive Resists
Defense Debuff Resistance
Temporary HP and Heavy Defense Increase

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Fiery Aura
Resistance
Heal
Endurance Drain
Damage
Passive Resistance

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Stone Armor
Resistance
Defense
Regeneration
Heal
Damage
+40 Percent Max HP
Passive Resistance
Ability to trade offensive output for sustained, heavier Defense and Resistance increase

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WillPower
Defense
Resistance
Endurance Management
Regeneration
+20 Percent Max HP
Passve Resistance.
ToHit Debuff
Temporary Resistance moderate resistance increases available after fixed intervals.

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Invuln
Resistance
Defense
Heal
Passive Resistances.
Passive Defense.
+40% Max HP
Temporary Heavy Resistance Increases
ToHit Buffs

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Dark Armor
Resistance
Defense
Stun
Fear
Heal
To Hit - Debuff
Damage
Endurance Drain Resist

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And there's still probably some stuff that's been forgotten. Im sure someone will point out I didn't include Dark Armor's +Perception and Stealth, but I didn't point out other sets examples of that either. I feel passives warrant a seperate mention as they do come of use, even if players tend to overlook them. There's values to the varying types of resistance and defense the game provides, that are unique of each other. Toggles provide moderate protection when you're not held/stunned for a continuing endurance cost. Passives provide lesser protection that is permanently active, and costs no endurance to use. "God Modes" provide brief exceptional protection with some form of cost on the end of the power. To lump them all together isn't really fair, as some sets provide one type, ((Dark Armor)) some provide two types, ((Fire Armor)) and some provide 3 types. ((Invulnerability.))

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Dark Armor has 5 forms of additional damage mitigation. Considering these additional forms is why DA does not have the Strait up Resistance or Defense that other sets have. However that does not make DA easier to play. Believe it or not in my opinion DA is what I consider an Intelligence set. Something that requires multitasking and critical thinking. The prime example is not running every toggle every time. Each situation has different ways that it can be handled. The best way to build fury is to run into a large group without OG or CoF running, hit Dark Regen and once you are close to 75% Fury turn on OG and go to work. Playing aggressive like any other Brute will keep the fury up. With the controls going you take 75% of the spawns out of the fight. I do not know any other set that can do that being a Melee AT.

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The problem here, is that reward and extra effort worth the reward? That's going to be an opinion more than anything. The time spent making sure everything is mitigated properly on one brute is time other secondaries can focus towards killing the spawn faster, as some of their defenses are not as situational, and also not as endurance usage heavy. This is not to say other sets do not have situational mitigation, that's obviously not the case.

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Now that fact that I consider DA an intelligence set does not mean I am trying to insult anyone however its all about how each person wants to play. DA takes time and effort to understand and allot of trial and error however once mastered it is in my opinion one of the best experiences anyone can have playing COV.

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There's no insult taken by that statement. Even in my OP, I stated that Dark Armor is the "Challenge" set. Dumb players need not apply. ((oh boy, someone's going to lynch me for that now)) After playing it and "mastering" it, ((Who's to say I did. I never bothered with IOs, which obviously improve some of the weaknesses of the set.)) I walked away with the opinion the reward isn't worth the effort.

I felt, ((Yes, more personal opinion here, admittedly))

<ul type="square">[*]I had leveled a set that was far too reliant on one power for survival.[*]That the set would never be able to "Self Exceed". This is the temporary ability to heavily increase your mitigation beyond the standard methods of the set, without outside buffs.[*]Would never be sought after for any specific reason other than team filler. ((Granted, this isn't unique to Dark.))[*]Was designed with full knowledge it would occaisonally "fail", therefore, had a self ress.[*]Would never perform well in PVP due to it's main strengths being negated by player movement, and it's weaknesses to common damage types.[/list]

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One point I can also make for DA is the primary pairings. Some Primaries mesh well with DA and can generate a different experience then what someone else may have. From my experience while Stone Melee is a serious endurance issue the mitigation it offers in conjunction with DA can not be matched period. OG+Fault = Perma Stunned Mobs. 100% Mitigation. That’s about as good as it gets.

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Every Secondary seems to have a primary it meshes with, sometimes it's not obvious. The mitigation provided by primaries should not overlooked by any serious player, and Stone Melee is one of those sets that excels with this. I personally chose Energy Melee for concept ((Wanted a Positive/Negative energy theme)) but -thought- the stun stacking with Oppressive Gloom would pay off. Does it? Yes. Not as much as I'd like, personally, but I can't deny that I've occaisonally used it to my advantage.


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In conclusion, while I disagree with many points in this guide I understand were they come from. The one thing I ask everyone reading this guide to understand. Experiences differ from person to person and the best answer is to take all opinions and opinion laced facts with a grain of salt. Let your own experiences determine your actions not someone else’s.


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Well said. I see lots of guides that try to encourage players to choose a set, but I could not, in my own "good conscience" write such a guide. I have had several players IG ask my opinion of the set, and some have went ahead, ignored advice, played it and loved it anyway. Others have said "Why didn't I listen to you in the first place." And others have said "That makes sense, maybe I shouldn't play it." I didn't want to write a glowing endorsement of the set, and then have to field the same complaints I personally have with the set and pretend they don't exist. That, is what would be "dishonest". ((No offense to you, it's something I've had tossed at me several times in the thread.))

For the record, I don't think /DA is useless, but as I said, the other sets simply do a better job. And unless it's for a concept build, or personal challenge, one would be better off going with a different secondary.

Im willing to concede that to some people and playstyles, the reduction of Fury Generation caused by Oppressive Gloom and Cloak of Fear is not an issue. It wasn't for me either, as after giving both powers a trial run, I dropped them. I personally took Dark Armor for concept, not effectiveness. I also would not say it's -useless- but the problem is that aside from being melee-troller guy, there's very little the set offers that can't be had from other sets, with less weaknesses, except Fear protection. It can be used for Psionic heavy situations, but post I7, Electric Armor can also be used, and post I12, Willpower holds it's own with that damage type as well.

Points I'd like to mention that have been brought up?

One: How is Soul Transfer the best self-ress in the game? It shares Dark Regenerations nature of being over saturating in an effect (in Soul Transfers case, Stun), at the cost of requiring a target, and if there are not multiple targets (3-5)you're simply prompting yourself to get crushed again. Other self-resses don't require a target, have higher heal/endurance return, and provide effects that are useful as well. Rise of the Phoenix has a longer duration stun for less magnitude, and knockback, and a better return on HP/End. And it's always useable when you're dead, something Soul Transfer is not. Yes, you can actually activate the Soul Transfer power and -not get ressed at all-.

I don't personally buy into Dark Armor being more valuable because with it's weaker resists, buffs don't get wasted by pressing you over the cap. The only buff that causes Dark Armor any real increased value over other sets is +recovery, due to the fact the set is crutched up by Dark Regeneration, and thus lives and dies by it's endurance usage. Things like +regeneration even have less of an effect than other sets, because several sets have a +HP boost that increases the effectiveness of regeneration.

Please stop trying to read between the lines, argue about the -nature- of the guide, and if you want to really debate it's usefulness and accuracy, try to stick to the points listed in the guide?

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Ok, I have noticed a few things cropping up in this thread which... interest me.

Certain concepts are being touted as objective descriptors and facts whilst they appear to be subjective to me.

Examples:
What exactly is the Brute playstyle?
What exactly is 'Fighting continuously' through a mission?

Since these two, plus some others (don't feel like digging back through the thread to find them at the moment), appear to be subjective concepts rather than objective facts, I became curious.

I decided that a better way than bandying words about would be for me to show you how I play and you describe it to me in these subjective contexts so that I (and others) may better understand each other's positions and meanings.

This is a video (cut to 10 minutes due to Youtube not letting me post anything longer) of me running one of my Brutes.

Yes, she is dark armor and the toggles she is running are Dark Embrace, Murky Cloud, Obsidian Shield, Combat Jumping, Death Shroud, and Oppresive Gloom.

Beyond that, I do not wish to influence your response by explaining things as I see them, so watch the video through and let me know what it says to you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDyyQc6-0-o

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To everyone:

A picture speaks a thousand words...

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It spoke quite a few to me.

1. lol faceplant on first spawn.

2. Higher res please, so we can see exactly what's going on.

3. We all know that a mission loaded with FAMILY mob types is a true test of merit.

Plus, of course, no mention of the build, or what sets have been sunk into it so it can achieve the mighty task of faceplanting to a Warhulk.

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A guide to the multiple and glaring weakspots in Dark Armor, and an assessment on why, despite any ideal numerical simulations, the set requires more effort for less return when compared to the majority of the brute secondaries?

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The set requires more effort for more return. No one says its an easy set to play. But the maximum return deliverable by the set is a purely numerical issue, and has nothing to do with player skill or game environment. Only how hard it is to get it is.

Also, whenever someone says "despite the numbers..." I tend to want to remind them that while there exist people who evaluate powersets numerically only, I'm not one of them. I've played dark armor on a brute specifically from level 1 to level 50, and specifically played her in all aspects of the game, from soloing to tanking to PvP to end game content. Other people can have different experience from mine, but no one can reasonably claim better or superceding experience in terms of evaluating the set.

The set performs basically the way the numbers imply it does. Of course, if you run your numbers correctly (i.e. the same way the game engine does), it basically has to.

There are lots of ways to improve dark armor. There are even more ways to ruin the set. The performance is so good, I would rather the devs stay far, far, far away from it. On the list of things I would want the devs to look at, Brute Dark Armor isn't even in last place on it: its nowhere on it.

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I don't want the Devs to look at Dark Armor at all either, actually. It's not so far underperforming that its unplayable, its just been my experience that of all the available sets, it's the worst.

Im curious, for the DA supporters. What exactly is this magical "more return" point? What is it that DA can do, that the other sets can't do with a proper build/loadout? Thats my main issue with the set. I keep hearing "Its capable of so much!" but I don't hear any real examples.

And Deus, if you're using nukes for your RSF run, you're pretty much invalidating yourself, and you know it. There's nothing DA can do with that nuke support that a team of 8 any other brutes can't.

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Before I actually post any builds tell me now what sets that an Invul/EM tanker or a DM/DA brute can take that would increase resistance to energy. Not any that I know of, now I could be wrong though. Let's stick with the brutes for this post.
I will use Mid's numbers. Here is the unslotted energy resistance for all brute secondaries. No tier nine's at all.

Dark: 15%
Electric: 61%
Energy: 9.4% although it is balanced by having a 20.6% def versus energy
Fire: 22.5%
Invulnerability: 13.1% which could not be balanced by a measly 4.6% defense versus energy
Stone: 0% and gets a 12% defense versus energy. Like to know how that could be balanced in your eyes.
Willpower: 5.6% offset by a 9.8% defense versus energy.

So if we are to go by the resistance numbers then the player must avoid not only DA, but all other secondaries except fire and electric. But yet you talk about DA. Now even though that energy damage is common, why did the devs in your opinion short change all other brute secondaries as far as energy resistance?

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First, the "No Tier 9s" card is being pulled here, so I don't see where it's fair to these sets, especially, in particular, stone armor. That being said... We'll toss out Electric Armor, and Fire Armor, as they do already beat Dark's Energy Resistance.

Energy: 9.4% although it is balanced by having a 20.6% def versus energy



To calculate Energy Aura's damage taken versus Dark Armor's damage taken, let's use a basic experiment. Both sets take 100 attacks at the base accuracy of 1.0.

We'll use Arcanaville's Basic ToHit Formula, from their guide to defense.

NetToHit = Accuracy * (BaseToHit - Defense)

Using Energy Aura's defense numbers, this would mean

29.4 = 1 * 50% - 20.6

Rounding the NetToHit to 29, this would imply that out of 100 attacks, 29 would land. Let's not forget to take Energy Aura's resist either. This would drop the 100 damage attacks to being 90.6 points of damage.

90.6 * 29 = 2627.4 points of damage taken.

Dark Armor, to the same standard.

You did forget that Dark Armor has also, a 3.8 defense. This will make the NetToHit for Dark Armor 46.2. Rounding that to 46, this would imply that out of 100 attacks, 46 would land. Those 100 attacks would be doing 85 damage, due to Dark Armors Resistance.

85 * 46 = 3910 points of damage taken.

Now, this is a horribly simplistic way of looking at things, admittedly, and the sort of situation that doesn't come up in game. In Practice, Defense doesn't quite work out the same way. Im also -not- using Dark Armor's Cloak of Fear, with it's to hit debuff of 5 percent. To use that, we'd need to use Arcanaville's Advanced ToHit Formula.

NetToHit = (InherentAttackAccuracy) * (1 + AccuracyEnhancement) * [ BaseToHit + ToHitBuffs - ToHitDebuffs - (Defense - DefenseDebuffs) ]

Now, for this situation, we're going to assume the enemy attacking both sets has no ToHit Buffs, and not using any Defense Debuffs against the Dark Armor user, and the inherent attack accuracy is also 1.

41.2 = 1 * 1 * [50 + 0 - 5 - (3.8 - 0)]

Rounding the NetToHit to 41, this would mean 41 attacks out of 100 will hit the DA user from the source, at 85 points of damage.

41 * 85 = 3485 points of damage taken. Let's go ahead and keep this number in mind for the stone armor and Invuln checks as well. Those can be checked with the basic method, but Invuln will have multiple checks, due to the nature of invincibility. Now we're also assuming a situation where Cloak of Fear ALWAYS hits, which it does not, but we're also ignoring the fact of incoming DPS being less due to the Fear effect, and just treating it as X amount of damage taken after Y attacks. Oppressive Gloom would also help the Dark Armor Brute if against mobs that the stun would effect.

Invulnerability, at this same 100 attacks of 100 damage scale. We're factoring in the defense loss from Unyielding, else, the 4.6 defense would actually be higher.

45.4 = 1 * 50% - 4.6

We'll round the NetToHit down to 45, for 45 attacks out of 100 hitting, at 86.9 damage due to Invulns resistance.

Invulnerability winds up taking 3910.5 damage over the course of the attacks. Worse than Dark Armor with CoF up,almost equal to it, without.

But, Invincibility isn't so simple. You can actually get an increased Defense Buff, per mob in range of the power. Increasing it to 2 mobs, the defense bonus goes to 5.8, 3 it increases to 6.9, etc. It takes 6 targets to reach a 10.3 defense buff, which leaves net to hit at 39.7, which would leave the situation described with the invulnerability taking 3476 damage. So, it would take 6 mobs in melee range for Invince to match Dark Armor's incoming damage mitigation with resistances, debuffs, and ToHit Debuffs alone.

Oh, except one thing. Invulnerability can with an extra 40 percent Hitpoints as well, from Dull Pain. And we're not figuring in the regeneration rate due to that.

Stone Armor's pretty simple, it would be hit 38 attacks out of 100, with no resistance, for 3800 damage. Note that this is less damage than Dark Armor without Cloak Of Fear's ToHit Debuff figured in, and also, of course, Stone Armor gets to work with the extra 40 percent HP as well.

This leaves Willpower, which we'll go ahead and calculate the same way.

40.4 Net to Hit, round to 40 attacks out of 100 hitting, with the 100 damage reduced to 94.4, it winds up taking 3776 damage over the course of the 100 attacks. Less than Dark Armor without the Cloak of Fear calculation, but not by much. More than with the Cloak of Fear calculation. Oh. But Willpower also gets a permanent +20 percent HitPoints.

So, what does all of that crap above mean?

If you want to ignore Tier 9s, and +HP bonuses, Dark Armor's energy "hole" isn't really that much worse than any other set. I'm actually surprised, but to be honest, we're still pulling the "Tier 9s dont count for balance!" card to put Dark Armor on this level, and ignoring the impact of Fear and Stun from Dark Armor on the attacker, if those powers were used, and also of course, not figuring in the endurance costs from the above calculations.

But yes, if you want to ignore Tier 9s and +HP bonuses, then I'll concede that Dark Armor's energy resist isn't really that bad compared to Invuln, Stone, and Willpower.

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lol. The thing that keeps me up at night is worrying what some anonymous forum-poster with all of 11 posts, or some net-nanny with her/his forum "ettiquette" rules, thinks about me as a person based off of words I type and they read on a screen...

Insulting? Sure. At times I can and will be, especially when it's called for. Just because it's a forum, doesn't mean i have to play nicey-nice. Im not trying to win a popularity contest like some people around here. the one thing I won't do is curse at someone or resort to emotional reactions. I don't "get mad" when i read the forums like some people. I've got thicker skin.

Close-minded? maybe, but then again, so is the OP. Don't see you mentioning that do we? Close minded people are anyone that doesn't agree with 'you'. that's the reality of the situation. Just because you try to paint a pretty picture and come off smelling like a objective third party observer, doesn't mean anyone is actually buying into it. Just as I'm not buying into the altruism and "Helpy-helperton" nature of this thread. There's enough conceit and self-rightness to go around in here.

I freely admit my humanity. You should try not to look so perfect. It only makes you look that much more flawed.

In closing, to the last poster,
Stop co-signing and post something original with some thought to it. Just an idea.

And as for a progress update, I'm setting up a team now of 8 dark brutes, wherein we will beat the RSF, and put it on video with a rigourous analysis of technique, builds, and strategy. That will pretty much be the culmination of the guide im working on that will pretty much forever end this debate, I hope. For all those folks out there who can't seem to wrap their noodle around the complexities of dark armor, hopefully the video will put it all into something easily understandable and with an in your face kind of irrefutability.

then again, for certain close-minded people out there, there really was no debate at all to begin with.

Isn't that right Haetron?

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Can't wait for the guide. Are you running this RSF with or without Shivans/Warburg Nukes?

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why the hate?

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It's basically a giant Troll post

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No, it's not, and this isn't the thread to discuss it if you think it is.

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What exactly is this a guide to again?

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A guide to the multiple and glaring weakspots in Dark Armor, and an assessment on why, despite any ideal numerical simulations, the set requires more effort for less return when compared to the majority of the brute secondaries?

I mean, hey, thanks for the bumps to keeping it up front, but the more appropriate action if the guide just offends your sensibilities so horribly, don't post, and just PM a mod and explain why you -dont- think it belongs here?

All of the "zomg ur wrong but I cant really say why so [censored]" replies aren't really helping DAs case.

Gilfred, haven't ignored your post, Ill reply later today when I have access to powerset numbers and such again.

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I have just planned out a DM/DA brute. I also have a build for an invul/EM tanker. Both will have set IO's. When they both have their set IO's and are at level 50 my Brutes energy resistance will be about 23%, my tanker at about 27%. So then why are you not up in arms about the invulnerable tankers and tell others not to play an invulnerable tanker?

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Because the guide is about Dark Armor, and comparison of sets baseline attributes? Some of the things done with IOs are great, true, but this is an extra level of investment to an already difficult to play, sub-par set.

Plus, saying "I can build to do this" doesn't do much good without providing an actual build to support the claim. Could you actually post the Dark Armor and Invulnerable builds?

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Except, those transitional periods almost never come up in casual game play, people save their Tier 9's for situations where they will actually need them, and don't fire them the instant they're available just because they are there. Im not trying to pretend that T9 resistance numbers are permanent parts of gameplay, but then, Toxic damage almost never is either.

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Then I think that then you undercut the premise of some of your own guide. If you use tier-9 performance to establish (conditional) superiority, then admit that people reserve that for when needed, then you need to analyze the comparative performance in terms of what happens when those things actually are needed.

Imagine you've got Elder Snakes, a DA and an ELA. The DA has some resistance and a big heal. In general, this is a good situation to be in - the DR alone is probably not enough, but it takes the edge off the damage to buy more time for the heal. The ELA has no resistance and a smaller but faster heal that may be interrupted by DoTs. The ELA might actually need his Power Surge there to match the pace the DA can roll at. The problem is it wears out - what then?

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You can actually of course, pace yourself between spawns, but no, you do point out a situation where Dark Armor would outdo Electric Armor.

It's also only one specific story arc, for the entire game.

Now, how often do you face Energy damage, and how often do you face Toxic?

One of the key factors of my dislike of Dark Armor is it's "gift" of being slightly better on a few resistances to less common resisted damage types ((Psionic especially)), but at the cost of having glaring holes to a common effect and damage types.

"Couldn't be -as- successful", does not equal "Could not be successful".

I also mentioned it's still THE set for Psionic damage resistance, and that this was something that the set did well, but, it's simply not (imo) worth the sacrafices made elsewhere for the set to have that resistance number.

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Exactly why can't you click them when you need them? The only reason you could not, would be if you had used them previously, and that still shows their overall usefulness.

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This appears terribly flawed to me. You cannot simply assess their availability with such sweeping terms. An example of how to analyze this sort of thing is in Arcanaville's comparative surivivability comparisons. You have to compare both uptime of clicks versis consistent value of toggles/passives and the more discrete effects of needing to click things (there are transitional periods where you simply cannot activate the power even when you want it).


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Except, those transitional periods almost never come up in casual game play, people save their Tier 9's for situations where they will actually need them, and don't fire them the instant they're available just because they are there. Im not trying to pretend that T9 resistance numbers are permanent parts of gameplay, but then, Toxic damage almost never is either.

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Here's the thing you really, really, really don't get haetron.

Statistics can be created and facts can be used to support any position. I can take the same "facts" and numbers that you've been touting all week and show how they actually support my position instead.

Your analysis is incomplete and flawed.

I'm about to show you what a complete and thorough analysis looks like. I've got 14 players assisting me with dataminding. Every Primary and secondary covered. And the "facts" we're seeing are so far from what your own experience has led you to believe, after you read it, if you in fact do so (which i really doubt ), you'll either be left with a few explanations:

We're all a bunch of liars and we made it all up...

We're playing a different game than you are...

Or, and this is my personal belief...

your own experience, has led you to believe a certain thing and in order to escape the reality that this has placed you in, you've set about trying, and in some measure succeeding, in hoodwinking not only yourself, but everyone else in the process using numbers and situational comparisons that only support your own very limited and narrow analysis.

It could very well be, that you, like many others, just aren't cut out to play the best armor set in the game for brutes. You neither understand it, and you really don't understand yourself.

I realize this sounds like a personal attack, but rest assured it isn't. I'm not calling you stupid, or a crappy player. I'm simply suggesting that instead of finding fault with the game, and a power-set that you just plain don't like (for who knows why, probably bad experience), you instead just take a step back and try to reconcile why you have such a vastly different experience from a minority of players with collectively a metric ton of experience at not only the game, but the power-set you're ranting against.

And make no mistake, it is a rant, cleverly wrapped up in objectivity, but transparently subjective nonetheless.

And of course, I will offer multiple comparisons with equal footing for all the armor sets.

And this comment is really exactly what I'm talking about:

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Ill be really interested on how much spin you'll be able to put on the base numbers Dark Armor provides, that'll actually put it -above- what other sets provide with better base numbers.

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That statement really does highlight my point. You only want to talk about base numbers, because only those numbers back up your side of the argument to any credible degree. You won't talk much about Dark's control powers because no other set has those, and those are the very powers that make up for, and in my experience, surpass the survivability of every other set.

Seriously, I'm not the only person that is seeing this type of doublethink on your part.

Frankly I'm tired of people with the mentality that the game mechanics are at fault for their own contradictory, or in some cases, just plain flawed play style.

And as for the spin comment, you've done plenty of spinning yourself. Of course, no one thinks they spin anything themselves, it's always the people that don't agree with you that spin...

You and Fox news bud. Fair and balanced...


anyways, thats it.

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Thanks for generally being as insulting as possible. It's appreciated. Ill be glad to read this guide, and see what you've come up with.

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Hey, no worries, I'm just dropping by a final time to let you know to watch out for my fact-filled, forthcoming guide:

"Why you should never play anything other than a Dark Armor Brute."

It's sure to be full of Awesome, and win. Oh, and lots of numbers, cause thats how I roll. Mainly from all the data-mining I've done over the past week. you know, actual testing, as opposed to pulling numbers from builders and going "here, see, I'm right!"

Stay tuned.

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Ill be really interested on how much spin you'll be able to put on the base numbers Dark Armor provides, that'll actually put it -above- what other sets provide with better base numbers.

And of course, again, Im sure you'll offer a comparison point that is on completely equal ground with an equal amount of datamining in the same situations that you tested your Dark Armor on, right? To prove it's so much better.

And again, of course all I did was pull numbers and compare and say "See, Im right" and didn't explain the justification behind any of them.

Man, if Dark Armor was half as defensive as the people that play it, I'd probably have not felt the need to write up the guide in the first place.

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To take an example, Haetron hasn't, despite his claims to the contrary, "proven" that DA has mediocre Toxic resistance--he's compared DA, which has a good Toxic resistance that is on a toggle, with powersets that get better Toxic resistance by using Tier 9 boosts to DR. This is like comparing apples to oranges. Those boosts are temporary and on a long recharge timer. They are highly situational.

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But, they're available, and they can't be -disabled- and fired, generating the endurance loss, and power usage, but not generating the beneficial effect.

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Should I respond that DA has a _MAG 30_ PBAoE stun in its Tier 9? I mean, WHOA. Mag _30_. "Going by the numbers", DA Brutes can control better than Uber-Doms, with a vastly superior stun, plus resistances, high HP, and tons of high melee damage. Except, of course, that this Mag 30 stun is highly situational. It's not fair to pretend that a DA Brute can just click it on whenever they want, and I wouldn't. Haetron, on the other hand, is doing exactly this with the resistance values for several other sets.

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Exactly why can't you click them when you need them? The only reason you could not, would be if you had used them previously, and that still shows their overall usefulness.

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He is deeply disturbed by Dark Regen for a number of reasons that are not unique to Dark Regen. Consume is very similar to Dark Regen, only for END instead of health. It's PBAoE, so if you don't have a mob around, it's not as powerful. It's also got an ACC check. It's vital, because if you have no END, you have no armor and you die. Similar limitations apply to Energy Drain. But Energy Drain and Consume are just fine to Haetron. Dark Regen isn't. That's not a fair assessment.

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But, if you have no end, you don't neccessarily always die. There are the possibilities of passive resistances, which Dark Armor does not have, Boosted HP, which Dark Armor doesn't have, or passive Defenses, which Dark Armor does not have. Also, HP is a much more vital stat than Endurance, as when it does hit 0, you die, no questions asked.

Consume, Energy Drain, and Power Sink are all useful -utility- tools, and not a crutch the entire set is designed around.

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He is peeved by the fact that we keep pointing out that DA's hole in KB protection is easily filled by an IO in one slot. But it doesn't bother him that EA's lack of a self-heal must be filled with, in his own words, a "well-slotted" tier2 power pool choice. That's not a fair assessment.

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The benefit of an anti-knockback IO versus the use of power slots is not exactly equal. However, too many people are harping on the value of the anti-knockback IO, when they don't provide the full level of KB protection. It takes multiple KB IOs to reach the level of protection most standard mezz protection powers give.

Aid Self -does- have the issue of being able to be interrupted, generating cost with no benefit, but the situations it is usable in still makes it a valid and good power choice.

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Haetron's post IS a rant, albeit one kept in the "inside voices" volume range.

A fair assessment would be one that says "DA Brutes have powers that make them really strong when fighting against a room full of opponents, but rather weak against single, Mez-protected superbads. They won't be hunting AVs while solo, and of course one-on-one PvP isn't going to be their strong point either. So if you do a lot of fighting against the lone uberopponent and like to tell everyone how you did the LRSF alone, DA is probably not for you. But there's no better Brute to have around when you've got some nitwit on the team who just aggroed 5 mobs--those baddies will be so busy trying to decide whether to cower or stagger that the DA Brute will mop the floor with them and look good doing it."

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Except, and this is where you're starting to truly just argue opinions, and not actual numerical advantages. Other Armor sets can do this just as well, and not have to deal with the weaknesses that Dark Armor is exposed to.

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But, and here's a thing. The guide isn't titled "an analysis of the pros and cons of Dark Armor", it's plainly titled to match the fact the point is to describe potential reasons you should not play it.

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Ah, OK. Well, if we're at the point where you're saying "hey, I'm not trying to be _fair_, I'm trying to get you to not play DA. Didn't you read the title, f'r crying out loud?", then I think I can stop spending my time trying to have a reasoned debate with you.

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I feel that I'm trying to be perfectly fair with the counter arguments, but if you don't wish to discuss it further, it's no worry for me.

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Amusingly, in a team context, my DA Scrapper is normally one of the first characters to pile into large spawns for precicely the reason that I immediately disable many of them - I fill a role somewhere between that of Tanker and Controller.

(I do have a DA Brute, I'm just bringing up the Scrapper in response to your mention of roles.)

I really believe this comes down to playstyle - that you have a preferred playstyle for which Dark Armor is a poor fit. That's fine. I think I and possibly others posting here have found (and can enjoy) playstyles that fit DA's strengths and weakensses. The problem that remains then is that your guide doesn't really talk about that - it tries to assert that DA is numerically inferior and/or inferior based on the frequencey with which its weaknesses are exploited by the game. At best it tries to assert that DA is contrary to the building of Fury. That, at least, I can agree with to an extent.

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But, and here's a thing. The guide isn't titled "an analysis of the pros and cons of Dark Armor", it's plainly titled to match the fact the point is to describe potential reasons you should not play it.

First. Anyone that feels this guide is not a proper "guide", feel free to report it to the moderators, if it has not been done yet. The simple matter is, that I've repeatedly IG been asked my opinion on Dark Armor while playing my Brute, and I decided to type up my usual arguments so I can give them a more detailed analysis of what to expect via link after a brief "Don't take it unless you're looking for challenge and concept."

Someone mentioned the resistances being a "tertiary form" of mitigation. This is another part of the problem with dark armor. You're forced to rely on weaker, "tertiary" mitigation for most of your early levels, having the "control" portion not kick in until level 26. You do get access to the set crutch, Dark Regeneration, at 16, but itll take you another 3-5 levels to get it slotted properly.

Healing Flames can be slotted to get you a 49.3 percent heal for 10.4 endurance every 20.3 seconds, if you slot it with 3 Recharge/3 Heal. This is guaranteed healing, no specific situation required. Using level 40 IOs, 3 Recharge, 3 heal. Heck, this isn't even optimum slotting, using IOs, but just putting up some numbers.

Dark Regeneration, slotted for 2 Accuracy, 2 Endurance, and 2 Recharge with level 40 IOs, can get you a heal that can net your potentially 0-100 percent health, every 17 seconds, for 19.2 Endurance. Now again, the potency of Dark Regeneration in potential cannot be disputed. But, you're using almost twice the end for, at best, a twice as good heal. It's a fair trade, to be sure, except there will be situations where you will not get the 3 neccessary targets, for whatever reason, and the second you go into 2 or 1 target situations, Dark Regeneration has become inferior to Healing Flames.

Sephorus:
I didn't extend these complaints to Scrappers, because, as mentioned before, Scrappers only share 2 other sets with Brutes aside from Dark Armor, and Scrappers are -not- expected to fulfill the same team roles as Brutes.

Again, not arguing they may not be the best AT for it, but you will, more often than not, find your Brute in a situation where they need to "Tank" for the team more commonly than you would your scrapper, because in CoV the role is disputed between MMs and Brutes, where as CoH no such dispute exists.

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So in summary, you just don't see the point of many--um, in fact, all--of the things that others might call strengths of DA (very high Psi resistance; high Negative resistance; good Toxic resistance; a stun toggle; a fear toggle; a good damage/end trade-off on the PBAoE attack toggle; +Perception; Stealth).

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The "good Toxic resist" was already disproven earlier in this thread. I explained why the "High Negative Resist" is not as beneficial as might be thought, in practice. Psionics, I've not disputed, except to say that you can use Electric and do almost as well and not have to worry about the glaring energy hole the set has. And Energy is much more common a weakness than Toxic.

How is it a good "Damage/End tradeoff" on the PBAOE toggle when it actually does less damage for the same end as Fire Armor's toggle, and the same damage as Electrics toggle, but has no beneficial second effect?

That leaves the melee range mez generating toggles, which come late enough in the game that at the point you can use them, you already have the tools -normally- in your primary to deal with the same things they're capable of.