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Posts
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Funny you should mention it. I was just sitting here wondering why Thugs didn't get the hilarious new pistol animations.
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Count me in again. Bob the Biohazard is 50 and fully IO'd up. 1144.5HP FTW
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Quote:Will you last long enough to down the foe? You don't have to sustain its onslaught indefinitely... If you're looking for utter invincibility, might I direct you to Starman from the Super Mario universe?If I take the aggro on a Poison MM, I have no way to heal myself outside of inspirations. The damage does add up eventually.
Also, let me remind you that I have a Poison Mastermind with no Henchmen to take aggro and I can still defeat various Elite Bosses without Inspirations. The thing has no resist or defense bonuses, so it's not like I've got any particular advantage from Enhancements.
The point here is if I have enough survivability without Bodyguard, I find it extremely unlikely that you'd not have enough with it. -
Quote:Plus, because of the way recharge times are calculated, that hefty-sounding -65% recharge debuff only means that the enemies' attacks take 33% longer to recharge, hardly gamebreaking.Quote:An attack that recharges in 10 seconds under a 65% -Recharge is: 10 / ( 1.0 - 0.65 ) or 28.57 seconds.
Is this not how it works? Because that's a heck of a lot more than 33% longer recharge.
Quote:The numbers and my experience simply don't show Poison being a powerful set. When my EB fights consistently end when, after I apply my debuffs, the Commando loses aggro for whatever reason and the EB turns and two shots nearly all of my pets with AoEs, there's little room for interpretation.
Oh yeah... Guess that particular point doesn't carry as much weight as it used to, eh? I'll change the article accordingly. I'll put in the note about rezzing Henchmen as well. -
Thanks! I tried really hard to come up with the completely original idea all by myself... *cough*
Quote:In my experience, an AoE (self) heal and a pool power (Challenge) is more powerful against EBs than the entire Poison secondary.
For Poison, you've focused on the -ToHit in Weaken and Noxious Gas, but ignored -Recharge or -Speed in Neurotoxic Breath. I think if you switch around your strategy with Mercenaries a bit, you can do better by taking aggro to yourself and keeping some distance via Neurotoxic Breath.
I have a petless Mastermind with Poison, and it can take down a particular selection of Elite Bosses solo. I'm still experimenting with Longbow Ballista, and I'm convinced I can do it with my build, but I haven't quite succeeded on that one yet.
If I can almost take down a Ballista with no pets using the Poison secondary (which means no Noxious Gas), then maybe your experience with the set has not been comprehensive? -
I first realized this thread had been resurrected by noticing quotes within quotes.
Heh. I remember when people would make quote pyramids! -
That may be, but it's a tactical consideration more than something that goes in this kind of introductory guide. I don't want to bog down the article with all manner of cryptic numbers when all people really want to know is "What does this power do?" before considering if they should take it.
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Check the game for cast and recharge times; they're not terribly important to knowing what the powers do.
Base debuff values are documented in full in the first post of this thread. Read it next time kthx. -
I... gave you numbers. What more do you want!?!???!?
Poison is one of my favorite powersets. I'd love to see it get some attention in the next round of proliferation. -
Poison is a buff/debuff powerset available only to Masterminds, and it's one of the most versatile and interesting grab bags of different power types available in the game. Amidst its ally buffs, enemy debuffs and status effect powers, the toys themselves come in different forms from normal cast powers to a debuff anchor and even a placeable trap.
The single-target nature of Poison's more prominent debuffs makes it more effective against individual stronger enemies rather than multiple weaker enemies, but the sheer number of possibilities in the set as a whole make it useful in just about any situation.
Alkaloid is a single-target heal power that takes very little time to cast and serves as a respectable aid in combat. The intensity of the heal is not all that impressive, at least compared to dedicated healing powers like Soothe from the Pain Domination powerset, but it's good in a pinch and serves well with the relatively low hit points of a Mastermind's Henchmen. The power can be compared to Aid Other from the Medicine pool, and unslotted, it does take a fair chunk of Endurance to cast.
A quirk about Alkaloid is that it grants a non-stacking +15% Resistance buff to Toxic damage to the target for 60 seconds.
Envenom is a single-target debuff that affects the opponent with -22.5% Defense to all, -30.0% Resistance to all and -50.0% Regeneration for 30 seconds. Although the power only affects one target, it's a staple in the Poison diet because it makes the enemy significantly easier to defeat. Especially for Masterminds, who deal low damage as a rule, this is a way to deal greater damage to the target than is available through self buffs. This is all not to mention making the enemy easier to hit, such as those Sky Raider Force Field Generators or Rikti Drones.
The complement to Envenom, which makes an enemy easier to defeat, Weaken makes the enemy less able to defeat your character or the team. Its primary use is to affect the target with -22.5% to all Damage and -11.25% ToHit for 30 seconds.
An additional bonus is a -74.5% debuff to a slew of secondary effects for 30 seconds, such as status effects, defense buffs, movement debuffs and endurance drains. This means that hitting a mezzer or Sapper with Weaken will significantly reduce the trouble they can cause to the team.
Joining the ranks of the "breath" powers comes this little gem of a cone power, which affects the targets with -65.0% to both Recharge as well as Movement Speed for 20 seconds. This is extremely useful for reducing incoming damage as well as keeping the foes from scattering very quickly. The power can be set to recharge in less time than its affects actually last, which means you can keep the whole battle choking on your stinky breath.
The power also has two 25% chances for short-duration magnitude 2 Holds, with means that every once in a while, it will even Hold a boss. The Holds are purely anecdotal and have few practical benefits, but it's a fun little quirk about the power anyway.
Returning to the world of ally buffs, we get the most two-sided ally Rez power in the game. On the one hand, it's a significant benefit because in addition to being revived with full HP and Endurance, the target is affected with +200% Recovery, +100% Recharge, +30.0% to all Damage, +22.5% ToHit and +15.0% Resistance to Toxic damage, all for 90 seconds.
However, after that 90 seconds is up, the ally's body rejects the poison and ends up with a debuff instead. It starts out with a magnitude 1,000 Hold for 4 seconds, which will make the ally stop in his tracks and vomit; suppressing the effects of any defensive toggles he has active, which isn't something you want happening during combat. After the Hold wears off, the target is affected with -30.0% to all Damage and -22.5% ToHit for 45 seconds.
As with any rez power, Henchmen can't be brought back to life, so this can only be used on ally players.
Antidote is a standard-issue, single-target status protection power that grants the ally significant protection from Hold, Stun, Sleep, Terrify, Immobilize and Confuse; and resistance to Sleep, -Recharge and -Speed; all for 90 seconds, and these effects stack with multiple casts of the power.
Following up on the out-of-place Resistance buffs, the power also grants non-stacking +15.0% Resistance to Toxic damage and +7.5% Resistance to Cold damage for 90 seconds.
The second control power of the set, Paralytic Poison is an unassuming magnitude 3 Hold that lasts for about 10 seconds from a Mastermind and recharges in 16. Other than the super-cool animation, there is nothing else to know about this power. Having said that, though, it is a hold that can be applied permanently, so it's nothing to shake a stick at.
Poison Trap releases a cloud of knock-out gas on the battle field. You have to take a moment to place it on the ground, which can be interrupted, and when it detonates, the cloud puts enemies to Sleep, has a 2% chance of a short-duration magnitude 3 Hold, and has a 1.5% chance of -10% Endurance to target.
It is worth noting that this power is different from the Poison Trap in the Traps powerset.
The kingpin of debuff powers. In fact, that little overlay on the icon is known as "mega debuff," and Noxious Gas is the only power that uses it. You select a Henchman to infect, then they emit a gas that debuffs all enemies around them with -Damage, -Resistance, -Defense and -ToHit. The exact amount of each depends on which Henchman you infect:
First Henchman (3 of them): -15.0% to all Damage, -22.5% Resistance to all damage, -15.0% Defense to all, -7.5% ToHit
Second Henchman (2 of them): -20.0% to all Damage, -30.0% Resistance to all damage, -20.0% Defense to all, -10.0% ToHit
Third Henchman (1 of them): -25.0% to all Damage, -37.5% Resistance to all damage, -25.0% Defense to all, -12.5% ToHit
These values graciously stack with the effects from Envenom and Weaken, which can make for some serious debuffing for that one target who happens to get hit with all three powers. The sums come to -60.0% Defense to all, -47.5% to all Damage, -67.5% Resistance to all damage, and -23.75% ToHit.
There's a sinister secret to the power as well: there's a 0.2% chance (one fifth of one percent) that the gas will deal a magnitude 1,000 Hold to the target for 4 seconds. This is well more than enough to choke the strongest Heroes and Arch-villains no matter what kind of status protection they happen to have. -
Quote:This one's my fault, I'll admit. When I frankenslotted the power while planning the build, I had the fifth +1.88% HP bonus in Alkaloid before I found that the +Regen and +Recovery Enhancements need to be slotted in Health for a persistent buff. Now that the bonus is freed up, I can stick it in Knockout Blow using the change you suggested and only losing 1.74 endurance more per activation.Really? I would think you could replace the KC Rech/End with GWE Acc/Rech without losing too much - you already have three other enhancements in it that give end redux aspects, so unless I'm missing something you should be pretty well discounted even with that.
There was a conversation yesterday that started in much the same way. That conversation no longer exists in this thread. -
Quote:Most of the Enhancements were obtained with the first 100M, but the Numina's Convalescence and +Regen and +Recov Enhancements were a big hit. I don't remember where the rest of the inf went, but they were things that people didn't seem too willing to part with.I'm not sure what makes it a billion-inf build, other than the purple procs (I'd be surprised if those were necessary for this) and Health/Stamina uniques (probably much more significant).
Quote:I notice you're very heavy on procs to build up your offense, which makes sense, and health/regen bonuses as your main defensive set bonuses (btw, another Ghost Widow's Embrace piece in KO Blow would get you an easy health bonus you missed).
Likewise, there were a few damage procs I couldn't use since doing so would render their powers crippled. There are three more Hold procs I could have put in Paralytic Poison and Knockout Blow, but I needed those powers for things other than a chance for damage.
Quote:I assume then that your survivability has less to do with the build and more to do with intelligent use of Poison's debuffs and mitigation? I don't have much Poison experience, but I know from rad and dark just how effective even a few solid offense debuffs can be at turning swarms of enemies into kittens.
Quote:Nice use of franken-slotting in the higher up powers, but of course a few more set bonuses could be achieved here and there [...]
I was pleased that I could cram so much +HP into the build while still being able to boost the powers for effectiveness. I figure there's no reason to sacrifice the usefulness of a power just to get some minor bonus, so this was a real treat. -
To those who have received my build: please respond. I'm not in it to simply boost your library of builds.
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I'm happy now. (-: -
Quote:Done.I'd also like to see your build, if you can PM it to me since I've been toying with the idea of doing a petless MM for a while.
Most Elite Bosses are mez-protected, which made them a bit tough. Snaptooth and Legatus Legionaris are no problem, though.
1-50 petless. Much easier to get a feel of how the powers operate and what issues need to be addressed that way. -
Quote:It's a little bit of both. Leveling various characters through the game gets its fair amount of inf to begin with, and playing with the market is where most of my funds come from. I've got my inf spread throughout all my characters so they can put up various items. Just last night I put up a new round of goods, and I've only sold about an eighth of them so far and have made over 30 million in profits overnight while I slept.It cost you 1 Billion then? How long did it take to accumilate that, or was it just a dip into your funds? If you had to really work to gather the inf to make that build, then hats off to you, but if it's just pocket money set aside for it then wow, wish I had such freedom with the ingame funds for the occasional fun build.
Quote:Could you send me the build via PM? My main Mastermind, who just so happens to be Thugs/Poison/Mako actually, has a psuedo-Blastermind secondary build which just has the Enforcers (since I havn't enough inf to IO them out to be as effective as you've shown) and I'd be interested to see how you've got your character set up.
Quote:Me is from Mars, you is from Venus.
Ok since I took the first shot, you can take the follow up uncontested.
Quote:congratulation, you spent a billion dollars and wasted many hours on a crap shot you took that could have just as easily been proven through mids and comparitive numbers.
Quote:Was there any point during the experiment where you nearly deleted the character?
Quote:What you're describing is probably due to the ragdoll-lockout time on Knockback/up. Whenever enemies ragdoll, they can't be affected by another KB/U power until they've completed their ragdoll and stand-up animations.
This has happened with both my Mastermind and my Brute. -
Quote:If I tossed out Antidote, Elixir of Life and Recall Friend... maybe Hover and Hurdle... well, then I'd only free up 4 Enhancement slots. I'm not sure there are enough Enhancements to go around without forfeiting one or mre of the powers I personally use in combat, which would definitely put a crimp on my effectiveness.I actually wasn't trying to troll when asking if you could make a character with this level of petless effectiveness who also took the pet powers. I'm genuinely curious as to (a) what you did and (b) how well it would work with a five-power penalty, which is pretty significant. The former I wonder just because you've implied you do some uncommon and/or unpopular things with this build (beyond the obvious one, of course
), and the latter because I'm wondering if I might be able to apply the general ideas usefully.
I'll PM you my build so you can look it over.
I'll admit: it was intended as a "Take that!" post, but I didn't expect people to actually be interested in what I've done. (-: -
Quote:I didn't think it out, no. Looking at the sets, my guess is that Necromancy would be best for the situation, since it's -ToHit and has a self heal. The damage is neglegible due to the Mastermind's low damage scale, so I'd still be grabbing most of my damage from procs.i know you said that pistol went better for your toon, but did you number crunch or think any of the other MM attack would of been more powerful then pistol before making the toon, if setup the right way.
Quote:In the Defender forums, if you're using all of your powers and doing your best to play the damn game, you're a Defender. If you're sitting around waiting for your heals to recharge and avoiding attacking the enemies because you might get aggro, you're a healer (or, h31z0rs).
You were compelled to join the discussion, weren't you? Clearly you're interested. Do I detect a hint of admiration and/or jealousy? -
What kind of crazy-apple definition of healer is that? I have, slot and use every single power from Empathy during combat, and my teammates are grateful. If that's not a healer, then I should start handing out dictionaries.
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Quote:Thank you, but your comments about Henchmen are entirely inapplicable to the thread. I ask that you keep them to yourself.I do applaud you for your achievements. I'm just saying the character could be capable of even loftier ones
Quote:It's not an issue of rank, but of enemy type. Some just won't get KU'd.
Quote:Give the Defender a billion influence worth of IOs and make a non-healer build, and I would expect the Defender to do better.
Quote:Of course, a healer build of any kind, even with 30 billion in IOs, wouldn't match a petless Mastermind on SOs.
But it was worthy of your time to post in this thread, I see. I guess that means I win, eh?
Also, allow me to bring to your attention that you are in the minority.
Quote:To provide a bit of historical perspective, for quite a while posting about petless MMs on the forums would lead to cries of "unplayable" and personal invective being hurled at those raising the issue; the intention of some posters was very clearly--even explicitly, in a few cases--to bully those who argued in favor of playing petless MMs, or who were persistently inquisitive about viable petless builds. That nasty little coterie of posters has moved on and hopefully they're more mature and tolerant now, wherever they are.
In other words, the response you've received is a double scoop of sunshine and happiness, compared to responses you would probably have received in the past.
And I'm aware that there are people who only post in this thread because they feel the need to spread their own feces on their faces. I'm actually surprised at the positive-to-negative feedback ratio I've been getting.
Quote:By all means, share your build; it does the forums good to have different versions of effectiveness floating around in them. Knowing builds associated with those different versions of effectiveness is also helpful.
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Wait, maybe I won't. You have PMs disabled? -
Indeed I did, and I didn't take Shark Skin until 47. Most of it was teamed, however. I use normal SOs until level 47 since I insist on using level 50 IOs. And since I couldn't frankenslot prior to that, my powers weren't anywhere near as effective as they are now. So I teamed as a support role; keeping people alive and debuffing the enemy. People often commented on just how quickly things went down once I started paying attention to them.
Also, not that it matters, but a random note of trivia: the character in the video is actually female. -
Quote:The devs stated back in the day that Mastermind was intended to be the Villain functional equivalent to Tanker: aggro control. While they did that fairly well to an extent from the get-go, the devs decided they needed Bodyguard. Why, did they die too fast?The fact that there is a tankermind option for players to take (and it works far more effectively for some combos than others) does not in any way mean that it was the intended option for players to take.
A lot of players even today don't use Bodyguard; they do what they did before Issue 7: instruct the Henchmen to do the dirty work and buff/debuff from a distance. In fact, the preferred playstyle on the forums has been that Masterminds not even take their ranged attacks because they don't intend to be part of the combat.
And then came Issue 13. Bile Spray, Night Fall, Mace Beam Volley and Static Discharge were all on the chopping block. The devs say they pulled the least-used powers, but I find it a mite suspicious that they were taking all the cone attacks out of the Mastermind epics. What were they replaced with? Knockout Blow, Oppressive Gloom, Power Boost and Thunder Strike, respectively. With the exception of Power Boost, that's awfully melee of them.
I don't think it's out of the question to suggest that the devs looked at how Masterminds played and said, "How can we make them more Tankery? Let's try Bodyguard. Well, they're sturdy now, but they're still not going into the fray. Let's give them melee powers and see if that does the trick."
I've taken a hypothesis and proven it through experimentation. Anyone who says that teams reject petless Masterminds is just spewing out hot air.
Besides....... it was only one billion. (-: -
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Quote:Uh... Yeah, actually, it is about what a petless Mastermind is capable of. Did you miss that the last three or four times, or should I post it with a bigger font size so you can see it?I don't think it's a question of whether a petless Mastermind is capable of soloing. It's a question of the number crunchers squeezing every last bit of effectiveness from a build. For Masterminds, that means pets.
Quote:Assuming the target can be KBed (well, KU, since AS does low-mag KU, not KB), they will flip due to AS. Unlike many in-set powers and Jump Kick, AS doesn't have a chance attacked to the KU effect.
Quote:Sure, but as other people have pointed out, I think the practical results that'll be interesting to most non-theorycrafters are in applying the things you do for a petless mastermind to a pet-having mastermind so that when his pets wipe he doesn't feel too bothered.
Quote:GuyPerfect, bravo. Well done. I was especially impressed with your +Regen. I may have to re-examine my own petless build in light of how effective it was for you.
Quote:And you did ok for a Mastermind with no pets, I get that it's a challenge and believe me, nobody understands the concept of challenge better than I do. I was simply pointing out that the term "effective" doesn't belong in the thread title
Quote:I would love to see the build posted, not because I wanna steal your secret & go make a petless for myself. Do the means justify the end, in my mind, is what I am curious about.
I apologize to those who are simply curious about what I've done, but I won't be posting my build here. There have been enough instances of "you should have used pets" already and I don't want to give people more ammo. "You should get some positional +Def" or "you should get some global +Recharge" are definitely next on the list, since my build has neither, and it completely draws away from the topic at hand.
Quote:In closing, you picked a helluva time to invest in this project with a "real" effective dual pistoler on the way.
Quote:wow good job, guy! did you try a dual build or was this toon done that way from the ground up?
I was all geared up for Bile Spray when Issue 13 came around, and in closed beta, they had that power replaced with Knockout Blow. Bile Spray was one of the main reasons I even made the character, and since I wasn't really into inventions at the point, I had a really weak character that wouldn't even get its signature power. DELETED!
Then things changed back in July, so I re-rolled. I have no shame to admit it: it started with green mitos, and just recently ended with lots and lots of pirates. I'd already been down the road, and now I'm at the end and there's not much lost in the transition.
Either way, there were never any Henchmen involved. -
To those who feel the need to remind me that the character would be more effective with Henchmen: don't waste your breath. The purpose of the experiment was to take a Mastermind with no Henchmen and see what I could do with it. If I was in it for the orange numbers, I'd roll a Brute or a Blaster.
Quote:Thanks! I've always been convinced that a petless Mastermind could work, but everyone keeps saying they'll be worthless now matter what you do. I decided the best way to know for sure was to try it, and I found that "worthless" is definitely not the right word... well, not if you do it right, that is.Posting because I support any and all efforts to break molds and take roads less traveled. Nicely done!
PS First thing I thought when I saw the thread was "I bet there's a dude that knows the value of Air Superiority" and I was right!
Air Superiority is extremely useful, as it's almost a guaranteed knockdown. Many hard-hitting enemies don't do so well when they're on their butts. In the video, Air Superiority wasn't used as mitigation since my HP, Regen and Resist did the trick, but it's a key power in the build for sure.
Since I had to resort to pool powers and the epic set for attacks, the pistols only represent 3/8 of my offensive arsenal. I rely on melee to a fair extent due to the number of damage procs I have slotted and the wonderful damage/hold combo of Knockout Blow, so I don't really think of it as strictly a pistols character.
I'm not really sure what you'd call it... Poison is a grab bag of buff, debuff and control powers, and with the melee and ranged damage on top of that with some significant damage resistance, I'm a little bit of everything. I'm a hodgepodge.
Whenever you're making a character, remember this: if you can think it, go for it. If you're ever doubting yourself on a concept, just remember that one day when you saw a guy make a petless Mastermind that could hold its own in battle. (-:
Quote:Good on you!
Its always good to see people stretching what the game can do.
I'm surprised that Poison was your secondary of choice, since it seems to be one of the weaker secondaries in my limited experience with Masterminds.
The character's name is Bob the Biohazard; complete with gas mask. The whole "toxic warrior" thing was the concept I was going for, so the poison and Bile Spray were a perfect match. The pistols made more sense than the dark blasts, pulse rifle or bow and arrow... and besides, let's face it: they're pistols!
Quote:I'm fiddling to make my pet-having MM that effective when his pets die/ are'nt around for bragging rights.
While your pets are still standing, however, remember that you can charge in and control the aggro. Bodyguard will protect you for the most part, even without the resist shield, and anything that shoots at you won't be shooting at your Henchmen. -
Would this particular build be better off with Henchmen? Most likely. However, that's completely beside the point, because then it wouldn't be petless.