GrinningSpade

Join Malta, have no superpowers but be better then any hero ever will be.

This discussion again? There are some very very extensive discussions about this in the past.

To summarise:
- They are meant to be a hindrance
- Killing them with just one AOE wold be to easy.
- Killing them as if they were minions feels wrong, pedestrians should not have equal hp then those trained longbow trying to stop us.
- Killing pedestrians on the Rogue Islands would be bad for the meager economy and much more likely to lose whatever legitimacy LR has. This would make LR probably quite unhappy. Therefore it is not encouraged to do so. Indiscriminately killing pedestrians would probably result in an untimely death of the killer.

Already said it in another post but a good thing may be said more then once.

Happy Cakeday Gangrel

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Perhaps because capes are so central to super hero "lore" that getting one should be seen as an achievement. Or to put it another way, it's something to look forward to, to generate anticipation, and therefore feels like a "reward". If there is something that can generate that same kind of anticipation, and be something people will want as much, then sure, move capes to lvl 1 and replace them with something else.

I have a feeling though you'd struggle to find something that would fit the bill as well.

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Apart from the fact that many have said they are not feeling rewarded by obtaining a cape, especially when they have played through the game several times.

And where is the reward for those who are starting the game with the Valkari pack? They already have a cape available to them. Where are the new Mac users saying that they feel rewarded by having to wait to get more capes? Where is the reward in just obtaining more? Sure it's nice, but I doubt it will be much of a sense of achievement. Not like the old days.

With that in mind, wouldn't it be better to give heroes access to a special costume (including a special cape and aura) at level 20, based on Hero 1's costume perhaps?

Currently, I am not convinced that the cape is really generating enough anticipation, across the player base, to warrant it being kept as a level 20 reward (I'm not saying my suggestion would, just to be clear on that).

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^ This. If it doesnt feel special, it doesnt fulfill its purpose (game lore/IC/whatever aside)

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It has made being LESS special with trenchcoats/wings/shoulder capes dn now even with the valkerie pack. But I remember that the first time I did it. I had sweat in my palms that I might bungle it. Now I only do it for those heroes like my police officer for who this is a RP achievement. And for those reaching level 20 it is imo just good enough effort to feel they have earned the right.

To us Veterans it has lost its shine and compared to how it used to be it has lost more shine. Remember how much fun it was to finally fly? I remember using hover to fly all over the place! It was so special and such an achievement to finally have true flight. Nowadays people have the raptor pack at level 6.

Have you seen how many people walk around in a valkarie cossie? Why? Because it is new and shiny. Everybody loves getting fun stuff. Even if it is just one cossie part.

I like to preserve as much of the awesomeness I encountered when I started to play this game to the new players as is possible. Because it is more fun to earn your milestones and reap the rewards then it is to get them all at the same time and discover there is not much fun stuff awaiting you in the future.

Ps: Wow, managed to have a new and I think important argument here and that after all these posts. Pats myself on the back while kicking myself for not mentioning this earlier.

Happy Cakeday Gangrel.

Well while we are on the subject. I demand something!

Aye I think we said everything to be said around here. Let the Devs sort it out from here.

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To be honest, the view should be moot from the get go.
It called an MMO[bold]RPG[/bold] for a reason, isn't it?

Anyway, I've said it before, its worth putting up again. It's all about options. People *have* the option right now to not use the Valk capes and shoulder capes until lvl 20, should they see fit, if they choose there Hero to be a rookie/trainee, etc. Or if their Villain is really that unambitious/scaredycat that they're going to go along with what Recluse wants ("For now! /em shakefist" )

What we DONT have is the full option for capes and auras at lvl 1. Which straightjackets peoples concepts at the start. To have such a great costume editor and then recrict parts like that doesnt feel right. If they feel there should be milestones, aside from the ones we already have like unlockable weapons, Rularuu items and Vanguard/Roman kit, then simply add more! Options are good, more options are better!

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But every option not in the game from level 1 limits me. Be it capes/auras/tommyguns or roman armor. It limits me that there are some veteran options not available from day 1. It limits me that Jay has not yet created things I need for my next new character concept.

I can always create a character that is not supported by this game. Because there will always be limits intentionally or not. But I also can create thousands of characters that ARE supported. Even supported from day 1 at level 1.

Today, my police officer made level 20 and the first thing she did was to get that cape. Why? Because she had earned the right to wear the cape. It means something. To her it means that she has proved that you don't have to be a freak with laser eyes to make a difference. To me it meant that it was a wonderful game immersion thing. It made the game better for me that I was able to get that achievement. Today as well one newbie (fresh in the game) in my SG was very enthusiastic that he now could wear a cape for his hero. For him to it was proof that he had accomplished something. it also meant that he learned a piece of wonderful game lore.

Milestones are important, don't erode them further.

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Yes, Spades, but the point is there is too much inconsistancy. Does that PoV mean that everyone wearing a shoulder cape or a Valkyrie cape INSTANTLY gets snubbed by the Hero Community?

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see above
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And Recluse might tout absolute power, but there are enough groups in the Rogues that don't give a spit, and will probably shelter such members as choose to ignore him (maybe for a fee, of course). And, again, if thats the case why does everyone wearing a valkyrie cape or shoulder cape not get attacked by a lvl 50 Bane Spider squad as soon as they step into Mercy Island?


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I gave a possible explanation a few pages ago. To summarize. Capes are forbidden but shoulder capes are technically not true capes and thus they law enforcers don't do a thing about it and for some reason LR does not mind. Perhaps he is amused by the show of rebellion here? As for the Valkyrie cape. I assume that the manufacturor of said item paid a big bribe to make sure everybody can wear it. Up until now, those bribes seems to be holding. Which might change of course.

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As for Hero 1 and the timeline, the timeline has so much borkage in it that Im starting to think the Menders MIGHT be bad guys
Even if the Phalanx has decided to keep mum, the rest of the world wouldnt. Villains who want to laugh in the faces of the heroes would plaster the truth all across the internet, hells all across anywhere, and im pretty sure the Hero community would natter about it. Im certain I've heard that discussion at least once at GG or PD.

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To me the timeline is not evolving every hero/villain starts at point 0 and will have to find out the truth for himself. Once more see above.

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Statesman doesn't make the laws. But the superheroes as a community decided to do this. So you can be stubborn and say frak that. But then you will be seriously snubbed by everybody. Because they think you are a disrespectful sob who is not worthy of their respect. In the end that can kill you.

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You risk your life fighting crime and may in fact save the entire city several times, but you aren't worthy of repect because you have a personal difference of opinion where it comes to exercising your constitutional rights to freedom of expression?

That's pretty silly. I don't think superheroes behave that way - and even if they did, I also don't think they cave in to peer pressure, so it's really not much of an argument.

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Read what Scarlet wrote a few pages back. That is exactly what will happen. To belong to a group you will have to prove to that group that you are one of them. It happens all around you every day.

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See the stumbling block that seems to have been hit here is between those of an RP mindset, that the game timeline is always moving forward, that things have happened before it started and each day is different, and so why should their character who has a few decades of backstory and already have a cape.

Against people who believe that the game world is non-changing and simply just a game that dictates what your characters are, and so has every person start in outbreak and be a rookie hero who has to prove themselves and the world only finds out about secrets when you do them.


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Guess what school I am? Every hero/villain start from scratch without any knowledge my main has. So yes Vazhilok needs to be arrested before he unleashes his plague. Hero 1 is the big hero of old until I discover that he is not worthy of that honor!
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So really you’re just going to keep arguing this back and forth in all honesty.

Onto my point: Shoulder capes were meh, maybe counting as breaking it, but Valk pack does, you get capes at level one.

Solution: Change all capes to level one or make it so you can't get the Valk cape until level 20, having it this way is just silly in my opinion

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I agree that the Valk cape should only be available at level 20 not before.

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Well Techbot, it sounds interesting enough and as you describe it even workable. Not sure if I would prefer it over our current system though. But you know there is one big big flaw with your setup.

No more Ding! + Grats!!!!!

I would sincerely miss that,

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Au contraire, my grinning friend There would be the Ding!, that of a skill finishing training, meaning it was fully powered and the character could then pick another power to work on.
Especially a Ding for training something large like Inferno or any of the nukes =]

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Well in that case, rejection withdrawn. Ding! Grats.
Right time to join the fray and start doing some DingGrats myself.

I must admit that more loading tips would ad to more variety. Jokes, tips, interesting game lore or even announcements could be added.

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Now you can think and roleplay that you are the biggest hero/villain on the planet but that is not something supported in this game. This game is about the CoH universe, not about DC or Marvel or Champions or any of the ideas you may have created yourself.

What is utterly wrong is the fact that you now can buy a cape. A marketing ploy that is in contrast to the game. Should the game adapt istelf because some guy in a suit only wanting to make a few fast bucks says so? I think not. I will buy that valkyrie pack but i will not wear that cape before I hit 20.

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Statesman doesnt make the laws. There is no STATE LAW that says 'Heroes cannot wear capes until this point'. And the fact that not all heroes are even FROM the US, or even earth, makes that point completely moot.

And, as I have said before, this completely ignores the Villain side of things, where most characters attitudes is a big 'Up yours'.

You have the choice of not wearing the cape until 20. What is the issue here is that those who want to wear a normal cape pre-lvl 20 do not have the option. Which is contradictory and silly.

Anyway, why the hell should it be in respect of Hero 1 now? The guy isnt even dead! Although the teams I've been on to fight him would have had something to say about that.../e knuckles

Its not adressing the issue, either whichway.

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Statesman doesn't make the laws. But the superheroes as a community decided to do this. So you can be stubborn and say frak that. But then you will be seriously snubbed by everybody. Because they think you are a disrespectful sob who is not worthy of their respect. In the end that can kill you.

And about hero 1 being not dead. Such is not known at the timeline your level 1 hero enters the game. You will find out about his fate much later.

On the Rogue Island things are simple. Lord Recluse IS the law. He said no capes until you hit 20. He has his level 50 enforcers ready to smear your puny level 1 villain to a pulp if need be. Might makes Right and LR is the biggest Might in the Rogue Islands. Your very survival is in his hands until you are able to prove to him that that is no longer the case.

I support the tailor option after doing the tutorial idea wholeheartedly.

Maybe a special tailor in Atlas townhall for that moment where you get your Cape? Free of charge of course to celebrate that happy moment as a gift form a thankful city?

Well Techbot, it sounds interesting enough and as you describe it even workable. Not sure if I would prefer it over our current system though. But you know there is one big big flaw with your setup.

No more Ding! + Grats!!!!!

I would sincerely miss that,

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As I see it. Heroes below level 20 are trainee heroes at best. By the time they hit level 20 they have shown that they have the right stuff. They have shown that they are worthy to wear a cape he very icon of a superhero.

I like this milestone a lot. It makes sense to have it. I agree that it absolutely not make sense to have heroes wearing their Valkyrie cape before level 20 though.

And yes this might be stifling to some people creativity but so do the other limits both as milestone or engine wise as I described above.

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As you see it, perhaps, but not as the game its self describes it. We've had this argument before, you can't justify this on thematic grounds. It doesn't hold up on either side. That is why no conceptual argument can be valid in terms of decisions that aren't purely based on gamelore.

What do you like about the milestone? Why does it make sense to have it? I can't see why myself when heros can have access to other capes at level 1. Where is the milestone now and if that milestone has eroded then what is its function?

The 'other limits' you described above (as I countered above) do not have the same link to the superhero sub-genre as the cape. As for then engine, there is no reason in the game engine for not doing this.


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The capes milestone makes sense. You start of like a loser who has enough power to beat up some local thugs. You are still learning the trade of being a superhero. There is a reason why the trainers are called trainers.

It makes sense that you don't get allowed to wear THE item that is so special as the cape. Just as commando's aren't allowed to wear their green beret before they have proven themself. The cape is a badge of honor. An honor you will have to earn. This in honor of Hero 1.

Now you can think and roleplay that you are the biggest hero/villain on the planet but that is not something supported in this game. This game is about the CoH universe, not about DC or Marvel or Champions or any of the ideas you may have created yourself.

What is utterly wrong is the fact that you now can buy a cape. A marketing ploy that is in contrast to the game. Should the game adapt istelf because some guy in a suit only wanting to make a few fast bucks says so? I think not. I will buy that valkyrie pack but i will not wear that cape before I hit 20.

Wouldn't have a clue what files.

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Yup, it appears to be a leak from the magic pack, especially since the rest of the outfit and the other variants (i.e. lace, top with skin) aren't showing up.

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You didn't peak into those files now did you?

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Very few heroes actually wear capes.

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Yes, I know that. What I am saying is that the concept of a hero wearing a cape has become engraned in to the zeitgeist. It doesn't matter that most don't. What matters is peoples own perception of there character as a hero; some of which can't be realised without the use of a cape.

The reason for that is because of the perception of a hero being someone wearing a cape. That's what I mean by "the very thing that defines what a superhero".

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As I see it. Heroes below level 20 are trainee heroes at best. By the time they hit level 20 they have shown that they have the right stuff. They have shown that they are worthy to wear a cape he very icon of a superhero.

I like this milestone a lot. It makes sense to have it. I agree that it absolutely not make sense to have heroes wearing their Valkyrie cape before level 20 though.

And yes this might be stifling to some people creativity but so do the other limits both as milestone or engine wise as I described above.

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Of course they could say have your tommygun and have your capes. But then I still cannot create two gun kid or medusa girl who can turn her opponents to stone and bite those coming close with her poisonous snakehair.
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Whatever happens, there ALWAYS be things you cannot create with any game engine. You will always have to stifle your creativity because not everything is possible to accomplish.

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So, you're saying: "Be happy with what you've got and stop whining about changes." and along with it "If I can't have mine, you can't have yours."

You don't want the family badge to be more realistically obtainable, you just bring it up saying it's neigh impossible as an agruement for the devs not to look at their own reasoning.

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This game allows you more design creativity then any other mmorpg and while I cannot create Ma Baker or the everlasting caped crusader from the start there is plenty of other concepts that DO fit seamlessly in the CoH universe/game engine. So instead of concentrating on the things you cannot do I suggest to concentrate on the things you can.

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Which we do.
We're human, we can dream.
Some dreams seem a lot more likely then others, this one is likely.

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Yes, I would love to see the gangbuster badge on red side be obtainable in a more reasonable way. There are more badges red side that are a nightmare to obtain compared to their blue side counterpart btw. But that's another rant.

To the case in hand. As I said, not everything will be possible and while you can ask, hope, yes even expect, that more option will be made available you will have to live with the fact that there are limits.

For the Auras Capes and say the Legionnaires outfit. Those can be obtained when you succeed in reaching the milestones. After all, this is a game and games need things you have to strive for to get them.

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PnP games manage fine and have been doing so for years. Traveller, a game that goes back about 30 years, had no levels, but was just as challenging as any other.

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Heck, even in computer games, Darklands, which came out in 1992, had a levelless system, where abilities simply improved with practice and training. In fact, there weren't even any classes, although it was more efficient to specialise different party members that to try to make everyone great at everything.

Darklands didn't worry overmuch about matching encounters to characters, mind. That was the player's job. If you tried to travel overland without gaining enough experience, the *&$#ing gargoyles would just eat the whole party until you learned to save up for a boat trip instead.

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That's one way of dealing with things. Though I am not sure if people like being hung out clueless all the time. I find that I like to have a clue if I am able to deal with my opponents or that it is time to start running hard. Finding out the hard way all the time is not something I really can appreciate.

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The level system is a time proven system for dealing with that problem. You can try to invent a new wheel or just use the existing one.

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PnP games manage fine and have been doing so for years. Traveller, a game that goes back about 30 years, had no levels, but was just as challenging as any other.

MMOs are largely stuck in the artificial world of D&D and it's mostly because increasing level gives an obvious feeling of progression through the game.

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I have played quite a few systems. With or without levels. They work fine so long as you have a competent GM running them. I shudder to try to implement them for a computer game. Especially one with PvP in it! Especially when I want to make it a nice balanced PvP system. Using levels is much easier and even then they manage to get it wrong.

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I dont see how it would be an different from the basic bones of PVP (with or without I12/13 )
A zone has a limit on the ammount of powers a player will have, say seven. That would start at the first learned power and then go up the 'levels', in other words which powers were taken first. Seeing as the pools dont count for power choices, maybe they would either need there own limit, or not be limited.

Seeing as players can enter PvP zones now with less powers than people who are lvling down to the zone, I dont see what the difference would be. Could be set up thus, assuming the build had a limit of 18 powers (for example)
1-5 powers
6-10 powers
11-14 powers
15-18 powers

Any inherent flaws Im missing there?

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That might work yes. But how do you plan to match mobs to players?

I sense a new patch coming soon then So take it while you can.

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I want to make Ma Baker. Zombie family granny with her tommygun. And i cant. See above post for more details.

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Zombies and a tommygun doesn't mix. It's not in the powers. That's a shame, but the game isn't cut out for such flexibility. Tough (to use words of some nay sayers in this thread.)


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Ma Baker is not a MM but the red side Blasteroid with an AR. Getting her her trademark weapon is not possible at low levels.
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Merc MMs don't have access to a tommygun. I don't get why, is it blaster/corrupter only? Why? Should be a simple change to make (compared to the power flexibility zombies + machinegun would be) and I see no reason -why-. So now I have to make up a reason... My character chooses not to use such an out dated and unreliable weapon. Easy. But I want my character to have the tommygun on one of her outfits, but can't. Explain why? (without saying 'tough' or 'because it's not programmed')


That's the problem here, we're given a reason for not having capes from the start. Now we're having some capes from lvl1 that goes against the explination.

It's not about milestones. We all (well most at least from what I've read) apreciate the milestones and want milestones. I get that.

Why don't Assault Rifle users get access to the tommygun from the get go? If someone can tell me gameworld (not game mechanic) explination that's precented to us, not thought up by a player but game lore, and I'll grant you that the capes and tommygun issue are the same.

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Yes the issue are the same thing. In this case my solution is NOT to create a character that I cannot create with the game engine/game lore. Its a shame of course, but thems the breaks.

Of course they could say have your tommygun and have your capes. But then I still cannot create two gun kid or medusa girl who can turn her opponents to stone and bite those coming close with her poisonous snakehair.

Whatever happens, there ALWAYS be things you cannot create with any game engine. You will always have to stifle your creativity because not everything is possible to accomplish.

This game allows you more design creativity then any other mmorpg and while I cannot create Ma Baker or the everlasting caped crusader from the start there is plenty of other concepts that DO fit seamlessly in the CoH universe/game engine. So instead of concentrating on the things you cannot do I suggest to concentrate on the things you can.

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The level system is a time proven system for dealing with that problem. You can try to invent a new wheel or just use the existing one.

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PnP games manage fine and have been doing so for years. Traveller, a game that goes back about 30 years, had no levels, but was just as challenging as any other.

MMOs are largely stuck in the artificial world of D&D and it's mostly because increasing level gives an obvious feeling of progression through the game.

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I have played quite a few systems. With or without levels. They work fine so long as you have a competent GM running them. I shudder to try to implement them for a computer game. Especially one with PvP in it! Especially when I want to make it a nice balanced PvP system. Using levels is much easier and even then they manage to get it wrong.