Glacier_Peak

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Sorry if I missed your point, but this paragraph seems to be aimed at the zones.

[/ QUOTE ] The paragraph is specifically aimed at identifying the need to create a PvP environment that is not like that which we have in zones.

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Where I disagree is trying to work on 1v1 balance, its a waste of time and resources and always will be.

[/ QUOTE ] Then you'd need to eliminate the ability to have 1v1 PvP missions. Only let PvP occur on teams of four or more players (and of for the reading impaired, i'm not talking about changing the arena or PvP zones that currently exist).

For the record, I don't think that's necessary, but perhaps in the short term it might be advisable. However, I also partially agree with Arcana: You can't solve team PvP without addresing the problem at an atomic level. In a different post, she astutely identified that the real fudnamental problem is that the devs even allow a power like Geas/FoN to be available to players in PvP. Why is it acceptible that a power is allowed to completely nullify those who depend on +DEF, but there is no corresponding power that allows us to completely nullify those who depend on +REGEN/HEAL/HITPOINTS or +RES? I interpret this as a "PvP be damned" approach to adding such changes to the game.

As long as they devs subscribe to this mentality, they'll never get PvP to a point where it doesn't feel grossly unfair. The devs seem unwilling to tackle this problem head on and I, for one, think they should. PvP needs to evolve, and in its current state, too many people might reject any expansion.

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Is it just me or is having someone with the EXACT same skill and capablitiy as me seem a bit lame. I want people to be more overpowered than me, I want to fight someone who I have to do almost impossible things to beat. Thats why I PvP, I want that challenge.

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If you liked the 1v1 so much, why didn't you make the descion to go to the arena, where you would not have been attacked in a zone made where people attack you because your a villain/hero.

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First, finding someone to fight in the arena who isn't twinked is a pain.

Second, I actually like having the mobs around since it adds an element beyond "GIT EM!" to it.

Third, I don't see why anyone would just decide to barge in on an even fight. If someone's attacked two to one, I can see it. I dove in on a few three to one matches and greatly enjoyed sending the people packing. But when two people are duking it out, why push the scale to "Insta-win!"?

I've sat back and watched a few good fights. Admittedly on my characters with stealth who are much less likely to be harrassed, while hiding in odd places with nice views. But it was impressive to watch two good teams going head to head. I could have walked in, debuffed and pushed it to 'easy mode' but what fun is there in that?

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I see. Not much that you can do about that man.

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(I understand that not every PvPer is "bad" like that. I will even concede that maybe most PvPers are not "bad" ones. But as long as the PvPer crowd tolerates the utter tools that are on their side of the fence, the general opinion of Non-PvPers is unlikely to change.

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And that, boys and girls, has been my point all along.

I don't hate PvP. I quite enjoy it, in fact. What I dislike are people treating other people like [censored] just for the fun of it.

And no, I'm not talking about the occasional newbgank... I'm talking about intentionally torturing someone else by making sure that the other person has no fun whatsoever playing this game.

The three idiots who treated the new guy so bad he SHUT THE DAMNED GAME DOWN because it was the only way for him to escape the [censored]-hats are the people I am talking about, not the occasional trash talker.

So please, those of you who keep talking about how its "subjective" or that I'm being unreasonable... are you really, truly trying to defend behavior that in the real world is considered so bad that defending it is unthinkable?

Is that what you are really trying to do here?

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Obviously Jack, someone with your intelligence can tell thats what is happening here.

If your someone that acts like Jack (applying his forum mentality to real PvPing) then id rather you not PvP. You'd just make my experience worse, thus becoming a Griefer/Ganker and all around Poo Monkey.

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Free for all zones? Ok so your talking about Warburg. Ganking? In a PvP zone? Nah doesn't exist. When I enter a PvP zone, I know full well im going to get attacked non-stop, as long as possible. Its a PvP zone, you are OBLIGATED to attack anyone and everyone (FFA zone). Ganking, pfft thats just what cowards use to call PvPers who attempt to FULLFILL the goal of the zone, and of the PvP itself.

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So that's the mentality that's undermining my enjoyment of PvP.

I'd been wondering.

Just for example, my favorite PvP fight was one that neither of us won. We couldn't kill eachother. I was hunting him, he was trying to strike me down before I could get a hold of him. It was actually fun.

I've had more than one enjoyable match between me and someone else be ruined by someone else butting in and killing one of us. Similar lines in the couple of team fights, two teams going at it, having fun, and then the self appointed calvary from on side or another shows up and makes it completely pointless to attempt anything.

Since I'm curious, is this a common mindset for PvPers here? Or do I have hope of being able to enjoy PvP from time to time?

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If you liked the 1v1 so much, why didn't you make the descion to go to the arena, where you would not have been attacked in a zone made where people attack you because your a villain/hero.

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lol JackButtface

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My, you certainly destroyed me utterly with your intelligent rebuttal of my points. Whatever am I going to do?

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Reply to the person, and show that you actually do care about someone calling you a name. Then act like a child and make yourself into a bigger bab*e*.

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But the point is not to stop ganking in FFA zones...



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Free for all zones? Ok so your talking about Warburg. Ganking? In a PvP zone? Nah doesn't exist. When I enter a PvP zone, I know full well im going to get attacked non-stop, as long as possible. Its a PvP zone, you are OBLIGATED to attack anyone and everyone (FFA zone). Ganking, pfft thats just what cowards use to call PvPers who attempt to FULLFILL the goal of the zone, and of the PvP itself.

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I think we've had this discussion before Mieux, but I hate to tell you that even if your (mythical) 1v1 balance could be achieved it wouldn't stop ganking or the complaints about it.

[/ QUOTE ] I think you need to reread my post. Specifically the part about 1v1 balancing.

And as for not stopping ganking you're completely wrong. You know how many university shootings they've had in Great Britain in the last 20 years? ZERO. Why because they gun laws are different. The devs can stop ganking if they wanted to.....It's called consensual PvP. But the point is not to stop ganking in FFA zones, but to set up PvP missions where the inequities are reduced.

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You consent when you enter the zone. Read the sign, if you dont agree leave. LEAVE! It's that easy. It'd be the best descion for everyone.

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Thorizdin_LotD:
Now, if you have a real solution to dealing with "poo monkeys" I'm all ears.

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Exclude them. If you are on a team with someone who continually greifs other people, or who suggests you do things like TP foe the same person continually as he tries to get to the exit; kick them from your team and help the other people nuke them.

You CAN do something about people who are total Poo Flingers. You just choose not to.


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Laylyn of HAUNT:
Please read my response on page ten. Also, please realize the orginal post was aimed at the pvp-needs-to-be-removed from-this-game crowd. There are a couple of others you missed on the past two pages.

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Whisky Tango Foxtrot?

Try going back and reading what I said without assuming I am attacking you.

I read the entire thread. I realize what the original post was aimed at. I disagree with your OPINIONS. I see you and Thorizdin putting forth an awful lot of crap that you are claiming as fact but not once providing a link that backs your opinions up.

The Links that are provided go to useless amounts of data about other games and in no way are reflections of the numbers on CoX.

I do agree with the following statement: The Developers of CoX always anticipated the implementation of PvP and never intended to have CoX be PvE only. There is money to be made in PvP and they would have been stupid to ignore it.

I do NOT agree that PvP is the “money making” part of the game. In fact, I strongly disagree. I believe that PvP is a sideline, kind of like a movie putting out toys for the Happy Meal as a tie-in.

There are some observations available.

The PvE crowd has been in CoX at least a year and a half longer than the PvP.

The PvP areas of CoX are ghost towns most of the time.

The PvP crowd is constantly crying for one nerf or the other.

The PvP crowd is more likely to abandon the game for the next FotM game.

All of those statements are supported by numerous threads within these forums or by logging in at any moment of any day and going to a PvP zone and counting heads. They are very likely (in my opinion) to be true. They are certainly true for my three year experience of this game.

I disagree with your opinions. I state that my opinions are just that, opinions. I believe that the PvE players of this game are the core players that are more likely to stay with the game through changes they dislike.

I believe PvP players are more likely to leave any game, CoX or otherwise, that does not cater to their whims.

I believe that Developers who bow to the pressure from PvPers are doomed to have their games fail. Some faster, some slower, but eventually it is the changes made to cater to PvPers that cause most games to fail.

I base my belief on the fact that many of my friends who are not PvPers have stuck through one change after another of many (SWG, EQ, DAoC and other games.) games. They stick it out, and hope that the changes are done, or that their favorite non combat activity won’t be pulled because somehow it was a root contribution to some PvP complaint.

Some of these same friends are here in CoX. Some of my new friends who share my feelings on PvP are here as well. We are hoping that the next PvP nerf won’t cause us more grief. We are hoping that the Developers again focus on the things that make us feel like heroes, not the things that make us feel like killers.

We are still here. My friends that like PvP have gone from CoX to EQ2 to SWG (and back and then in again) to Guild Wars to Auto Assault and to Wow, bounced between all the others, come back and checked out CoX at various intervals or Issue Updates and left again.

So that is what I base my belief on. PvEers and RPers that I know have stayed. Despite changes, they have stayed. PvPers that I know have left, bounced around, checked in again and then left.

To be honest, the guys I know that really love crafting and gathering materials haven’t stuck around either. I like the gathering/exploring part, was never big on crafting.

The bottom line, for me, is; PvE with friends is endlessly entertaining. To my eyes, it seems as if the larger portion of the player base of CoX is of the same opinion. PvP, in small doses is okay, as long as the zone doesn’t have any Poo Flingers around. Since the number of times I have entered a PvP zone and not had to deal with Poo Flingers (not counting the times I went in at 0300 and the place was empty) is less than I can count on one hand, I do not feel that PvP is paying the bills for CoX.

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The PvP areas of CoX are ghost towns most of the time.


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Obviously someone who PvPs would visit the PvP zones so often to know that they are ghost towns... right?

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The PvP crowd is constantly crying for one nerf or the other.

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And just like PvP'ers, PvE'ers cry nerfs when they see that they aren't the greatest in PvP.


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The PvP crowd is more likely to abandon the game for the next FotM game

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Just like the PvP crowd, the PvE crowd would leave for another if a new game came along that gave you everything you've ever wanted to do in this game, or had radically new things you've never tried before.



PvE'ers like yourself, with your biased opinions, but opinions non the less, are coming into PvP zones excepting to be the best instantly.


And if your weak PvE build doesn't match up to someone who has been pvPing for years, then you cry nerf, and call names; Make it seem like PvP'ers are the problems, and make them out to be something not all pvpers are.

Same numbers of [censored] who PvP, also PvE.

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lol JackButler

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Yes.

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Okay, fair statement. How is it hypocrisy? This feels akin to your saying "Calling a man who has robbed a bank a bank robber is wrong" to me, and that makes no sense. As Herodotus said, it is no insult to a dead man to say that he is dead. If someone is acting like an [censored]-hat, and everyone recognizes that he is acting like an [censored]-hat, how is pointing out that fact hypocrisy?

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Because dead is a well defined term. Whereas [censored]-hat is not only censoered it is also highly subjective. Your use of the word is engageing in the same activity that is provokeing you to call them a [censored]-hat. I dunno about hypocracy but it certainly a good case of becoming what you behold.

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Nonsense.

There is no comparison between my calling someone an [censored]-hat and hounding someone so badly they flee the game. No comparison at all.

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Yes there is. Look at your sig man. Calling anyone who causes any form of dismay to ANY person whatsoever is considered a Poo Monkey.

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Heh... when nobody knows anything.. everyones an expert. Isn't that right Jack?

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You're asking the wrong person. I know quite a bit, and am an expert on quite a few subjects.



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Blaming other people... and calling the people who CALL PEOPLE names, is like... uh.. being a Poo monkey. Am I right? Don't look through the window with your eyes closed.

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Non sequitor much?

If I've decoded your sentences correctly, you're saying that pointing out an anti-social player's actions are anti-social is hypocrisy somehow? I'm scrambling to understand your... interesting... use of the language here, so if you care to translate, I'd appreciate it.

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Yes.

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You're not a badger or you'd know how difficult and challenging that truly is.

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Sleeping while your computer runs overnight is "difficult and challenging"?

I think you meant "time-consuming and inane."

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To each its own. To the others its known, but neither care to listen.

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Other than a handful of arguable TF and GM badges, I fail to see how badges could be classified as "difficult." Certainly not in the sense that PvP is difficult.

As a recovered badge collector with ~360 badges on my main, I can honestly say that Vae_Victus is pretty much spot on. There is nothing at all challenging or difficult about badge collecting.

Hold that thought... pillbox badges might be in this category, seeing how you're subject to PvP to get them. Maybe even the Warburg nuke badge. That's about it.

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I think those Heroes/Villains in RV are a bit hard. But other then that and the Epic badges, easy in my opinion. Like I said though, to each its own.

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If you consider being killed in a pvp zone harassment, then you probably shouldn't go to pvp zones.

If you keep repeating the same behavior that got you killed before, you will likely be killed again. Playing against intelligent opponents forces you to adapt. If you don't adapt, expect to be killed the same way over and over again.


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QFT. GG

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You're not a badger or you'd know how difficult and challenging that truly is.

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Sleeping while your computer runs overnight is "difficult and challenging"?

I think you meant "time-consuming and inane."

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To each its own. To the others its known, but neither care to listen.

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On the other hand, PvE environments are generally static, and not because they have to be, but because game designers claim they *must* be: that an evolving PvE environment creates all sorts of problems that would upset or unbalance the game. Can't have PvE players alterning the environment, because a constantly shifting backdrop to PvE would wreck PvE.

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I don't really know any developers who believe that. We look at games like Prince of Persia: Sands of Time, God of War or Shadow of the Colossus and the innovative use of terrain involved there and think "How can we get things such as that into our game?"

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Give me a hole filled with sinking sand, to fight someone in. And id be happy

Castle, I haven't read many of your posts, but have you asked people what kind of area/zone/place people would like to PvP in? Maybe some kind of new Arena maps, or start a PvP tutorial kinda mission. Like how you have it for IOs and in Breakout.

I dunno, just thinkin

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So don't pretend that PvE'ers are a bunch of wusses who are over-sensitive. On the contrary, its us... the PvPers... who need to clean up our collective acts and start acting like human beings instead of a pack of rabid chimpanzees.

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What is that supposed to mean? Humans are and can be a number of different things. I think we all are, actiing like humans. ???

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I meant act with a modicum of respect for one another. The people who give us a bad name and drive away the PvE'ers are the mooks who are only in it to bust up the other guy's fun as quickly and as cruelly as possible, laughing the whole time.

I believe that you can be a successful PvPer without acting like an [censored] about it. Unfortunately, the most visible members of our community disagree.

I've actually had people tell me that they had a right... A RIGHT... to treat other people like fecal matter when I asked them to stop being such a butthead.

Win... just be a gracious winner. And stop thinking you have "Mad Skillz" if all you're doing is ganking an opponent who can't fight back, because you don't. Any fool can shoot fish in a barrell.

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Heh... when nobody knows anything.. everyones an expert. Isn't that right Jack?

Blaming other people... and calling the people who CALL PEOPLE names, is like... uh.. being a Poo monkey. Am I right? Don't look through the window with your eyes closed.

OP was right about everything. GG

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What blows my mind is that Co* is a game about Superheroes and Supervillains pitted against each other, and there seems to be some contention that it should be only Player superheroes vs. Non-Player villains and vice versa.

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This is a very well stated, but its a complete and total misrepresentation of the most common complaint about PvP, and you very well know it.

PvE players have nothing against PvP per se. What they have is the urge to avoid unpleasant dinks who exist only to cause other people as much aggravation as they can for their own amusement.

That's not PvP, that's sadism . And its also commonly defended here in the PvP zones. As you also well know.

So don't pretend that PvE'ers are a bunch of wusses who are over-sensitive. On the contrary, its us... the PvPers... who need to clean up our collective acts and start acting like human beings instead of a pack of rabid chimpanzees.

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Dude likes dirty things I guess

By the way, he's just here for laughs. Don't take him too seriously. He might respond to you with long posts about irrelevant things that have nothing to do with the topic of the post.

Watch...

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Right there is something I hate about PvP. PvPers called PvEers carebears. I don't know why but I just hate when PvPers say that like its a bad thing that some people don't like PvP. I have yet to see a PvEer call a PvPer a "hatebear" or something to that effect. There are PvPers that don't help PvP much because of they way they act.


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I agree with this, "Carebear" seems to say "I'm soft because I don't pvp". This is simply not the case, I know several people who love Cox but they quickly came to hate pvp. Why? because pve there is a community that supports each other, even perfect strangers will seek each other out to reach toward a common goal. That sense of community for many disintegrated the moment they stepped in a zone and suddenly the guy you were helping accomplish goals before is laughing at you and calling you names and or defeating you repeatedly simply because he can and you know he is getting his rocks off.

So people left and slammed the door as they did so with no intention of returning. I have a friend who plays wow and he pvps quite a bit and appears to be very good at it, When he tells me the Horde and Alliance cannot talk and that there are queues to enter zones all I can think is that "I wish we had such things".

Now Laylyn has done a fine job of getting the Guardian community togther and keeping people interested and deserves a lot of credit for the effort but I am not so sure it is the health or lack there of pvp that keeps the game afloat. I would say it is how the two are synergized into their worlds that is the true sign of the health of the game. The problem is that the Dev. team has been working out with their pve arm only and their withered pvp arm has been purposely ignored. Maybe the recent communications indicate that this will change. I for one hope so.

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I've never been a big fan of the word carebear myself. I will use it aginst a pvper that enjoys degrading others, but generally I think anything that retracts from your future player base is a bad idea. I've seen pvp games reach such a level of negative domination that the other side gives up for a time and I don't see that as a positive. I see that as a lose, lose.

The whole thing works best as a win, win. It's a fun white knuckle experience on it's best days and I've seen plenty of people who swore they'd never pvp change their mind and then become rabid pvpers. You have to engage people's imaginations. You also have to bring out the best sportmaship on both sides, but also realize that being human, everyone has bad days.

As for the Guardian war thing, you are giving me way too much credit. There are too many people on both sides that keep the event going and make sure it's fun for everyone. That's not a person, that's a community. That's also something you've been a part of Helmkat, even on the opposing side. I firmly believe it will endure and that playstyle will endure long after I'm gone.

Good things grow and prosper. That's just the nature of things.

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Do professional wrestlers call eachothers mama's names?

Layln, gg.

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I get entirely involved with my characters--I fully immerse myself into their role, acting myself out as them and playing entirely as them. I put music in the background that fits them, I think thoughts that fit them, and I shift my attitude to what they would feel as well. I fully immerse myself into the role of my character, and thus, yes, I feel what they feel.

This is part of the reason why I utterly despise asswads, and will go out of my way to prevent teaming/interacting with one at all costs.

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How do i RP?

It's called the Arena devs. Fix it.

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We will be issuing a free costume change token to all characters soon, pending testing. We wanted to let people know this so they can better plan out any costume changes they may be considering.

Our apologies for any inconvenience caused with costume changes.

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Issue 8 sucked. This is not enough compensation. Even if this wasn't for I8, i still think this issue was lame.

This game had so much potential. SO MUCH!

Vet rewards satisified me, but only because i got a respec that ive been wanting since forever ago.

Why can't you hand out free respecs like you do costume tokens. WHY!?!

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Long and the short of it, while there are some small PvP thingies getting some attention (like _Castle_ posting about Brute Fury in PvP a few days ago) there are not any big PvP issues on the nearer term feature lists.

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That is the best thing I've heard from a redname in a goodly amount of time. No offense to the PvPers, but imo the devs have already invested way too much time in what is at best a minority interest.

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QFT

-- War

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I'm offended. Suppose a red name wrote they won't be spending time on badges (minority group) or bases (another minority group)? We all have opinions on what we'd like the devs to spend time on, but I think it is absurdly rude to come into the PvP forum and essentially kick all the PvPers in the head when a red name has just told them that they don't matter.


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The intention of my post was not to dash all hopes of any change in PvP, but to help illustrate why those changes hadn't been a hot topic with design. I know that a lot of their time, when it isn't currently spent getting Issue 8 out the door, is working on some of the very broad and exciting stuff coming in issue 9 that will add a lot to the game over all (inventions + other goodies).

I do really like the suggestion about trying to re-use the old event where everyone got a level 40 on Training Room to come PvP with. That sounds like it might have some good broad appeal and make for a pretty darn fun weekend. Of course, I haven't investigated it with the dev team and it might not be possible, but still a good idea to follow up on. Besides, I'd like to play a few different Archetypes myself at lvl 40 with a hord of other folks to blast at or along side with. Let's try and focus the discussion on things we can do under the current systems?

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if the Arena was fixed...then it would make ALOT of us PvP'ers happy

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And thats exactly why the Devs aren't doing it.

PEEEVEEEEPVEEEEE pwez!

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You were forced to PvE???

But... You do not need to PvE. Skip Outbreak and go directly to the arena. And then Have fun.

Hm. Ok. The run to the arena counts as PvE. But thats like the PvP contacts you need to visit while pursuing PvE missions.

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Go home. I dont like that in my food.

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Forcing pvp is probably not that wise. However, introducing more adaptive npc's could help usher people into a more pvp style of play.

They already started with nightwidows using powerful -perception. Bane spiders with their "AS" power. Succubus using confuse. These kind of things force the pve'er to think beyond tank herd, we nuke.

Take it further by introducing *some* mobs that react according to imput. Held.... it pops a bf. Acc debuffed.... it pops a yellow. Give it a limited amount of these "npc inspirations" of course. Make a few npc's specifically target "support" like pvp'ers do, so they learn to evade and support. Then maybe they won't wonder why they get AS'd ever 5 seconds while they stand in the middle of the street casting RA

Mainly pvp needs dev attention though. Yes fixes are absolutely needed and paramount, but even with the broken system dev sponsored events draw tons of players. Red names can advertise pvp in this game far better than even the most determined group of players ever could.....

Frosticus

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They forced me to PvE. I say get em back!


*YAAAAA !