Giant2005
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Posts
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Joined
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I don't mean to be rude but your attempts to do it all have made your build kind of crappy at everything.
You have underslotted Ball Lightning's recharge and have very few Global recharge bonuses to compensate. Your aoe attack chain will have some serious gaps in it as a consequence which really pushes your dreams of being a decent farmer out the window.
Secondly, you have used a lot of expensive IOs and a lot of slots to get yourself a fairly average amount of defense. That defense isn't game breaking. You don't even really need it at all unless you plan on main tanking and if that is the intention, you will not succeed. I'd be fairly confident my pure farmer would be more survivable in regular content due to the fact that everything around her is dead.
Corpses generally don't attack and therefore I don't need defense.
Lastly, don't 6 slot Rise of the Phoenix. Just don't... -
Sebastian Shaw.
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Didn't know which of your arcs were downgraded so I just 5 starred them all.
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Wow I figured that VIP server was going to be a ghost town lol.
My vote goes for /Elec btw and if not that, /Dark. -
Lol thanks TopDoc!
You are right, the funny looks sure don't seem worth it. -
It is as simple as Damage / Time.
Add up all the damage in your chain and divide it by the amount of time that chain takes to complete. -
Quote:This isn't quite right. Burn doesn't have any fear component. The reason they run is because there is a morale mechanic involved.Originally Posted by Arbegla
Which is very true, but the main reason for that is that [burn] causes so much 'fear' due to breaking moral which causes the mobs to flee. If you didn't have burn doing so much damage, mobs wouldn't run from a /FA scrapper, and would usually stick to said /FA scrapper more often then say a /SR scrapper.
Namely, if you are killing a lot of mobs fast without taking much damage, the mobs morale will break and they will run. The damage aura contributes at least as much to breaking their morale as Burn does and generally, a /FA Scrapper will be causing more runners than a /SR Scrapper would due to inflicting more damage. -
I have a question.
I am making a farm and was thinking of limiting the mobs to level 51 which would mean at +4 it would auto exemp me down to level 47.
This is what I currently know:
1: When exemp'd to 47, I keep all my powers, Incarnate abilities and my level shift.
2: When Exemp'd to 47, I keep all my set bonuses regardless of the level of the IOs involved.
3: Enhancement power modifiers are only reduced when exemping below level 45. So at 47 it shouldn't alter the strength of my abilities.
This is what I don't know:
Does it make a positive difference? I am assuming the mobs being 3 levels lower means 3 levels less worth of HP for me to kill but would the base damage of my attacks be scaled down relatively to the point it doesn't help at all? -
Quote:I'd say Kin.Originally Posted by Sir Ladboy
For a duo with a SS/Fire brute, what (Im looking at a fire/* corruptor specifically for thematic reasons) would go the best with it?
Someone boosting both your recharge and damage is awesome.
Less time spent popping reds means more time killing things. I am pretty sure that is more beneficial than chucking out a -res debuff on a pile of corpses. -
Quote:Actually Freedom makes it much worse.Originally Posted by Father Xmas
That is the reason.
If the store is down, it seems the game servers have no way of knowing how many slots you have other than the standard 12 per server, unless there is already a character in them. So if number of characters is greater than 12, you have no free slots. If you delete at character and you still have 12 or more, you still have no free slots.
I hope this will be fixed in Freedom.
The store seems to go down a lot and when it goes down, it stays down for an inordinate amount of time.
Currently the only thing it effects is your character slots, when Freedom launches it also ties a whole lot more into that mechanic - you would lose the ability to play your Veats, Eats, Controllers, Masterminds and lose access to everything you have purchased. -
For me what is relaxing depends on my mood. Sometimes I find killing everything in sight hard and fast relaxing, sometimes I find a nice, easy, slow pace relaxing.
My Crab caters to both my needs. My Crab is an aoe beast when I feel like slaughtering small societies or I can just chill back and let my pets carry me if I am after something a little more mallow. -
Quote:Eviscerate hits harder per activation but it's DPS is lower than Shockwave. DPS is far more important than burst in a Farm.Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
It's not double the damage. Shockwave does the same amount of damage as Strike. Exactly the same amount. Eviscerate hits a LOT harder than that. Like 3 times harder.
Shockwave has higher DPS and it hits twice as many targets. It doesn't do double the damage of Eviscerate, it does MORE than double the damage of Eviscerate. The difference becomes even greater when you consider Eviscerate has a longer animation and more burst, it means it is more likely to overkill a target rendering more of it's damage obsolete.
Other than the fact that you need to give your victims Imdomitable Will to counter the annoyance of Shockwave's LB, Shockwave is superior to Eviscerate in every conceivable way: it does more than double the damage of Eviscerate, a higher chance of hitting it's target cap and it has less wasted damage from overkill. -
Quote:Undeniably trueOriginally Posted by Linea_Alba
[*]In all non-ambush-farm content, the SS will pull ahead.
I don't see how this is possible. As both builds gain more recharge, the advantage has to fall in favor of Claws considering all of my suggested attacks are either superior or equal to the SS chain. Being able to have more choice off attacks due to them recharging faster can only favor the one with stronger attacks.Quote:Originally Posted by Linea_Alba
[*]As recharge increases, SS will pull ahead, and this build is farily low recharge.
This is an advantage I have already admitted to. It is just very situational and I'm not sure it is worth the lessened damage.Quote:Originally Posted by Linea_Alba
[*]If you use rage, SS will pull ahead. However, I wouldn't use double rage in AE Farms, and even single rage can be questionable depending on the length of the levels vs the rage crash. If you can max tickets in 120s or less, or time your use of rage such that the crash happens while you're between missions. This will vary depending on build, farm, and playstyle.
I haven't actually farmed on Claws before so I am having trouble debating this point. I do farm on my SS and my farm of choice is Chick Magnet which happens in a narrow corridor and I have noticed that I am always surrounded by considerably more than 10 enemies within 8' of me except near the end of the farm when there are very few enemies left and if I have a bunch of noobs with me who have decided to die in annoying places scattering the ambushes. With that in mind, I tend to think the radius isn't going to matter a hell of a lot but I don't really know so I won;t contend your point any more than I already have.Quote:Originally Posted by Linea_Alba
[*]Radius IS an advantage, even in ambush farms, more-so in all other farms or content.
I don't know what you mean by easier to build exactly so I will ignore that point. Also I don't know how it would have more slots available? I'd like you to clarify that too.Quote:Originally Posted by Linea_Alba
[*]The SS is in my experience easier to build, has more slots available, but costs considerably more since recharge is the primary leverage point.
I also tend to ignore the point about recharge - if I were a Claws Farmer, I am pretty sure I'd be slotting an extreme amount of recharge anyway, there isn't really any reason not to.
This is true but the point of the comparison is to see what they can do top end.Quote:Originally Posted by Linea_Alba
[*]Counter Point: Claws can get good performance cheaply.
Cebr is awesome at what it does but it isn't as effective as a fully slotted 50 build. It does mean Claws would have a bit of an easier time getting to 50 and getting the cash required to IO that 50 for a new player but it still doesn't change the comparison of their potential when at 50 and fully IOd.Quote:Originally Posted by Linea_Alba
[*]Further Counter Point: See CEBR (link) for ludicrously cheap but still good performance. -
Quote:I feel like a bit of a Pancake for quoting myself here but I went ahead and worked out the data for these chains myself.Originally Posted by Giant2005
If anyone is capable and able, I'd love to see some spreadsheets of the following attack chains including redraw and reactive procs at the target cap for each attack (which without having actually played a Claws farmer, I am still confident they would hit with ease):
Super Strength: FS, Burn, Ball Lighting and Elec Fences.
Claws: Shockwave, Spin, Burn and Fireball.
Claws: Shockwave, Spin, Ball Lightning and Elec Fences.
I am not 100% sure whether my values are correct - I took as much info as I could from Bill's spreadsheet and used Mid's values to fill in the blanks for the attacks he didn't use. I also took the 0.63 second redraw from his spreadsheet, I assumed the redraw would be the same whether using Evis or Shockwave. Please correct me if that assumption was false.
Here is what I came up with:
SS: Footstomp, Elec Fence, Burn, Ball Lightning
ArcCast 7.128
Max Targets 41
Dam W/ Targets 2123.905
Damage Cap 18053.1925
DPS: 2532.71
Claws: Shockwave, Spin, Burn, Fireball
ArcCast 7.26 (7.89 with 0.63 redraw)
Max Targets 41
Dam W/ Targets 2536.505
Damage Cap 21560.2925
DPS: 2732.61
Claws 2: Shockwave, Spin, Elec Fence, Ball Lightning
ArcCast 6.468 (7.098 with 0.63 redraw)
Max Targets 46
Dam W/Targets 2273.7
Damage Cap 19326.45
DPS: 2722.80
The first Claws chain has a very slight edge over the second in terms of DPS but the second also hits 5 more targets in it's chain which means more Fiery Embrace damage, more Reactive Procs and more Proc damage from IOs. I have no idea how to quantify those aspects but I assume they would push the second claws build ahead of the former.
SS however, doesn't seem to compare as well.
Edit: don't know why but these forums are completely destroying the format of my table... So I shortened them down to the totals. -
Creating a farm where the minions have KB protection isn't a difficult task you just give them Indomitable Will. I'll agree the damage of Shockwave is only marginally better than Evis but the big difference is the target cap. Shockwave hits twice as many targets and consequently does double the damage. It also has a massive range boost on it, I'd consider it far more likely for Shockwave to hit 10 targets than I would Evis to hit 5.
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If anyone is capable and able, I'd love to see some spreadsheets of the following attack chains including redraw and reactive procs at the target cap for each attack (which without having actually played a Claws farmer, I am still confident they would hit with ease):
Super Strength: FS, Burn, Ball Lighting and Elec Fences.
Claws: Shockwave, Spin, Burn and Fireball.
Claws: Shockwave, Spin, Ball Lightning and Elec Fences. -
Quote:Yes I remembered that spreadsheet which was the bias I mentioned in my opening line.Originally Posted by streetlight
Bill Z Bubba ran a test of Claws/FA against SS/FA not too long ago, convinced Claws would win for many of the same reasons. It didn't, partly due to redraw, and the example data didn't use a pure AOE attack chain for the SS/FA.
Claws is much better than SS for minimum-level farming, though.
I did however just take another look and I think my assumption of bias may have been a little misplaced. The attack chain for Claws used in that comparison was: Eviscerate, Spin, Elec. Fence, Burn and Ball Lightning. That attack chain is far from optimal. Elec. Fence isn't necessary and Shockwave and Fireball are superior to Eviscerate and Ball Lightning. The choice of Eviscerate over Shockwave is particularly baffling - they have the same Arc but Eviscerate has a bigger range, more DPA and double the target cap of Shockwave.
That comparison wasn't really fair to either set which in a way, I guess it makes it fair to both
.
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Ahh redraw.
Forgot about redraw...
Is that enough to lower Claws's DPS beneath the SS attack chain? -
Sorry guys, I know this topic has been beat to death and the information is probably out there somewhere but a lot of bias and false tests have really skewed the results (The genius idea of putting KO blow in the attack chain for SS to lower their DPS for example).
Looking at the sets and their aoe chains, I just don't really see why SS is better though...
Comparing the ideal chains of:
SS: Footstomp, Ball Lightning, Burn and Electrifying Fences Vs
Claws: Shockwave, Spin, Burn and Fireball.
When it comes to straight damage per animation, it is easy to see the advantage falls to claws: Spin > Footstomp, Shockwave > Electrifying Fences, Fireball > Ball Lightning and Burn = Burn.
All of those compared attacks have the same target caps.
There are however a few differences:
1: Footstomp has a much bigger radius than Spin and can more easily hit it's target cap.
Rebuttal: I'm not sure this matters, I don't have a claws farmer but the mobs pack so tightly on my SS I couldn't imagine not hitting 10 of them with an 8' radius.
2: Rage.
Rebuttal: Unless you have more than two passengers on your team, you have more than enough inspirations dropping to stay at the damage cap, in those situation using Rage is only handicapping yourself due to it's crash. I only ever use Rage towards the end of a farm when I have a full team and I am running short on reds, so as far as I am concerned this is only a small win to SS.
3: Shockwave sucks
Rebuttal: Shockwave doesn't suck, the knockback sucks and it being a cone is a minor annoyance. However, there is no reason the mobs can't have KB protection and the cone isn't bad - 90 degrees plus a decent range, I'm fairly confident it will hit it's target cap consistently.
Am I missing anything else?
If I am not missing anything, the only thing I see that SS has over Claws is ease of use and for that ease, it is giving up 3 superior attacks...
Edit: Figured out another advantage of SS
4: Survivability: Footstomp keeps the enemies off their feet fairly well, due to Shockwave needing mobs with KD protection, claws doesn't have that layer of protection.
Rebuttal: Generally survivability isn't really an issue... It does have it's advantages though for example: right now while browsing these forums I am sitting in the fire troll farms with footstomp on auto. I can be sure I'll survive but I am fairly confident I couldn't do that and expect a happy ending if I were Claws/. Still don't know if this is enough to tip things in favor of SS though, it is obviously situational and I am sure many people aren't as lazy as me. -
Quote:It seems we have both misjudged one another.Originally Posted by Selina_H
So if I'm flipping an item in order to make enough inf to supply the "lowest socio-economic classes" in my SG with IO builds, doesn't my charitable intention trump your selfish one? After all, you're only buying those enhancements for *yourself*... and taking them out of the hands of an entire *group* of people. For shame.
For one thing I very rarely buy enchancements for myself, the last dozen or so builds I have IOd have not been mine.
Secondly, what you are describing isn't morally ambiguous in the slightest - it is very noble, charitable and commendable.
I have said all along I have my problem lies with those who do it simply for the sake of swimming in influence. They have more than they need - if you are spending it then awesome. If you are spending it on others, that is even more awesome of you. If you are stockpiling it for no reason beyond making sure others don't have it, that is slightly less awesome but still relatively commendable - I have enough trouble juggling the influence I do have with these caps, adding an excessive amount to that would just make it more problematic.
As an aide, I am also not criticizing those who buy cheap recipes, craft the IO and re-sell it for a mark up. They have earned their cut. -
Quote:This is where our opinions differ.Originally Posted by Selina_H
Taking away someone's ability to insta-buy a luxury item by buying it first isn't immoral.
It is my opinion that taking away someone's ability to do ANYTHING for no reason beyond personal greed can only be considered immoral.
Whether I am taking someone's IO or their ability to feed themselves for a week doesn't matter - it is one's intentions not actions nor circumstance that define morality. -
Quote:Actually stock broking is a little more complicated than that.Originally Posted by Bionic_Flea
What do you think stock brokers do for a living?
Buy low and sell high.
Does that sound familiar to you?
It is completely legal (barring insider trading).
They are effectively providing a loan to companies most in need and gaining returns based on that service.
Flippers and scalpers aren't providing a service for their mark up, they are merely profiting off the misfortune of others. -
I have a question.
If there is nothing inherently wrong with flipping, why is it so frowned upon in the real world?
Why is it illegal to scalp?
Why do producers feel the need to add a recommended retail price to their products?
Why is flipping treated differently? -
Quote:This is irrelevant. Whether or not I know it is happening on a case by case basis means nothing. Ignorance doesn;t change the morality of the situation.Originally Posted by FourSpeed
For all you know, that particular item was actually used in a toon by the purchaser.
Maybe it was re-listed - there's simply no way to know with any specific item.
The key point you're missing is this:
This is called scalping and is illegal.Quote:Originally Posted by FourSpeed
Undervalued, high demand items will sell out quickly, and produce a supply shortage.
Think of iPods/iPads, Beanie Babies, Transformers, Super Bowl tickets or any
number High Demand items that were simply unavailable because the price
was low enough (or the supply was restrictive enough) that more people
bought them faster than other people were able to produce them.
So, in those cases, what usually happens? You get a finite number that sell out
instantly, and you get a few on EBay for crazy prices.
The very laws designed to force mankind to live ethically are telling you that what you are doing is wrong. Sure you might like to see this as play money and differentiate it from genuine earned cash but I don't see the difference.
Their value to an individual is determined by the amount of effort required to get it, this is as true with real money as it is with influence.
It takes me two minutes real time to earn a dollar.
It takes me an hour real time to earn 10 million influence if it is generated purely through grinding.
Due to the time invested, for me 10 million influence is worth 30x more than a dollar.
This would be true if you had an impact on supply or demand but a flipper doesn't.Quote:Originally Posted by FourSpeed
There is a name for this: Volatility... Which, in practical terms, means extreme
price swings, and extreme levels of availability or shortage.
The "service" that flippers provide is to reduce Volatility.
To be sure, he is compensated for his savvy and patience, but those are
actual skills, just as the doctor or the tax guy, or the electrician get compensated
for their specialized knowledge as well.
They aren't generating any new goods for sale nor are they reducing demand, they are simply moving the goods along the graph beyond the point of equilibrium.
That isn't a service.
And what right do you have to define what the "normal" price is?Quote:Originally Posted by FourSpeed
In actual fact, flippers narrow the extreme price ranges, by bringing the price back
into the "normal" range where producers are supplying the item at roughly the
rate that people are still willing to buy them, without creating a shortage.
What you "lost out" on was a bargain. Getting it "on the cheap".
Next time, bid earlier...
What the flipper did was make sure you could *still* get one, if you really needed
to have it (and by "need", we mean "pony up and pay the normal price these
usually sell at").
I can assure you if people stopped flipping, prices would be noticeably cheaper. They would revert back to their default equilibrium value.
The fact that you are pushing the prices beyond that does not make those prices "normal" actually, by pure definition, it makes those prices abnormal.
This is just something I can't understand. You are taking something available to all and artificially inflating their prices so they are out of reach to those lowest socio-economic classes. How can that be considered anything but immoral?Quote:Originally Posted by FourSpeed
It has absolutely nothing to do with morality - believe it or don't.
Regards,
4
With respect to the scalping that you brought up, would you think it okay if you desperately wanted to go to the once-affordable Superbowl but the Scalpers bought all the tickets up and pushed them beyond your price range? What of the organizers of the event who quite purposefully set their prices because they wanted to fill the stands? How would they feel about those empty seats Scalpers took from the public?
It might be a good way to make a quick buck but that doesn't change the morality of the situation: that quick buck is coming at the expense of others.
Marketing follows the exact same principle. It might be "play money" but morality doesn't make that distinction. -
Quote:That brings me back to my initial post.Originally Posted by DevilYouKnow
The problem with your argument is that you are placeing a higher moral value on your need over Fulmens. You have not proven (and cannot prove) that this is so. It is not so.
He's need to sell it for a profit is not more or less moral than your need to slot it NAO. Both are are self satisfying needs ancillary to the play of the game. It's something that you do to make the game more fun for you.
What if a dozen people all show up wanting to buy it for a million inf? How does the market determine the one with highest moral need? It can't.
To take in-game, merging the markets means that items from blueside are constantly being boughtt by villians for immoral purposes. Is it moral to even list an item that could be used bya villian to spread evil?
This isn't the real world. Huge amounts of coin in COH is not causing wild and reckless behavior that is resulting in the devaluing of COH's Bond rating nor is it forcing Pargon City residents to make cuts in welfare and Medicare.
The difference lies in the excess, if I am buying something to relist it for a profit. I am denying someone else a fair deal simply to hoard away a fortune far beyond that of my needs then I am denying someone else's need for no reason other than greed.
The market can not determine who's need is greatest but if my need is 0 I can be sure someone out there has greater need than I do.