Futurias

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It really doesn't matter. So long as there are differences (either effectiveness or cosmetic) between the Patron Pools, and there will be, then a permanent choice is a bad decision.

I don't say this off the top of my head. I've played about ten MMOs and five seriously and in everyone where you get a choice of power or attribute that's permanent, it causes problems. Most have been detailed in this thread. Few people are ever happy with such a choice.

I think developers like the idea because for them it forces the character down a certain RP path. It also forces diversity because at least some people have to be the pioneers and choose first. Developers tend not to like people being able to change with the wind. BUT, many players hate being locked in to a particular choice. Most people don't mind paying their way out, see WoWs and EQ2 paid respecs. But people like that out.

This is a choice the devs have made. I promise you this issue will not go away until people have some choice. I may not bring it up, but others will. People will be calling it a dead horse around I8, but it still won't go away. Like many other hard fought issues people are going to complain and complain. I promise you this will come to pass. It's so unncessary too. There is a reason that modern games don't go down this road. There is no reason CoV needs to.

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The developers have always stated that they wanted some content to be exclusive so that you can't 'try" it all.

And as this is happening near the end of your characters carreer, it is unlikely to heavily affect you if it is "nerfed" either.

What you say? Yes, I said that. Even counter to everyone yelling that it will.

Because when you hit fifty, you really don't have a lot to do with that character. Some (emphamis here) people PvP a lot, but even they can't change their power selecting all the time. Even if the developers found a bug that lowered one of the powers by 5%, they aren't going to offer a respec for that.

Heck, they never offered an AT respec for fixing Smoke Grenade even over the device blasters whines.

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You aren't looking at it from the fact that this is the result of completing your Patron story arc. That means they are giving you a badge/souvenir for completing it.

Which is utterly meaningless.

Badges can't be *undone* with the current technology. They are permanent part of your history, what you have done.

So? I have a badge that says I signed on with Ghost Widow. Then I betray her and join Sirocco. Now I have two badges. Collect the whole set.

Souvenirs are even less meaningful, since no one but the owner can see them.

Also, it's false that badges can't be undone. If you cash in your CoH earned respec, your badge changes. If the Patron badges aren't implemented the same way -- the Patron badge changing to reflect your current allegiance -- that's because the devs chose not to do so.

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I believe this also caused problems in CoV with an unlockable contact.

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And that's why the patron powers are permanent, because they are tied to that history.

That is simply no excuse.

Actually, if they added "patron" arcs and four-five patrons on the hero side, I'd really be tempted to pick one, as that means my character was basically a serious side-kick to one of the FP.

Considering that the FP have been portrayed as a bunch of incompetent jerks, I can't see why anyone would want their character to be a second fiddle to one. I'm not happy about having a "Freedom Phalanx Reserve Member" accolade -- my main wants nothing to do with those people, he thinks they're a bunch of dangerous would-be dictators with delusions of godhood. He only did the "Hero's Hero" arc because the Praetorians are even more dangerous.

Your entire argument is predicated on the notion that it is "cool" for player choices to have permanent consequences. From a pragmatic (as opposed to aesthetic) perspective, that argument is without merit. Future changes to the game, even changes not directly related to the choice at hand, can invalidate player choices, thus those choices should be provisional insofar as it is practical to do so. Since this entire system has been implemented from scratch, there is no excuse for Patron choices to be permanent. If the developers have painted themselves into a corner with a short-sighted implementation, they have no one to blame but themselves when the players tell them how much the system stinks.

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Well, except it's only *some* of the players that think that. And CoV already has consequences for choice and failures.

If I was one of the patrons and I just heard her #2 flunky was wanting to defect I'd accept that gleefully, kill/inconvience her and *then* kill you for surity.

I mean, you already betrayed one patron, right? What's to stop you from doing it again?

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Patron Powers are truly permanent. This powerset, once chosen, is as much a part of your character as your Name, Primary Powerset, Secondary Powerset, Body Type, and Origin.

There is currently no way for us to let you re-spec out of them and into a different one. This is because it is tied to specific content for that Patron.

Because of this, hard numbers are given, in-game, about the powers and what they do before you even choose which arc you wish to partake (and will most likely be available on the website as well).

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This makes positively no sense whatsoever.

Why?

Because it's not true for Heroes.

Several times now changes to the game have made it worthwhile to me to re-evaluate the EPPs I chose on my heroes. There is no tie-in on the hero side to any patron. You chose the EPPs at will, each time you respec.

I am extremely disappointed that this is not an option on the villain side. I honestly don't care at all that its tied to content. I consider that an eggregious mistake on your parts.

Our characters are our toys. They are for us to play with, not you. More options are good, not less.

Take this back to the drawing board. It's a bad idea.

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Actually, if they added "patron" arcs and four-five patrons on the hero side, I'd really be tempted to pick one, as that means my character was basically a serious side-kick to one of the FP.

And that would be cool.

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Its a lazy decision from the devs. Really lazy.

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Um, I'd say it is just the opposite. They want your choices to make a difference in your character.

They probably had a good idea of the flack this would draw.

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The patron is set because of a story-arc where you choose one patron above all the other. The fact that you can't unpick a patron is because it's now part of your *history*.

You keep harping on this like it's some kind of conclusive proof. It's not. It's not even relevant.

People betray patrons and switch factions all the time in the real world. Shifting alliances are a permanent feature of any political situation. It is even possible for (e.g.) Fred to betray Barney to Wilma, then betray Wilma to Barney and end up working for Barney again. History is rife with the stories of double and triple agents. There have even been people who managed to screw everyone in the domain of discourse and gotten away with it, or even ended up in charge. Arachnos would not only be no different, it has actually been shown to be a breeding ground for cutthroat politics.

Locking players into their initial choice of patron is not logically necessary. It is a fiat decision, and it is a bad one.

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You aren't looking at it from the fact that this is the result of completing your Patron story arc. That means they are giving you a badge/souvenir for completing it.

Badges can't be *undone* with the current technology. They are permanent part of your history, what you have done.

And that's why the patron powers are permanent, because they are tied to that history.

(minor nitpick: You can test the first two power or one half of the PPP at level 41 quite easily. You get two choices to begin with.)

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You have to stick with one choice at the end of the game. A choice with a consequence. CoV has a lot more "consequences" than CoH does, to add more flavor to the game.

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Oh, whee! How wonderful that there are story-based *consequences* for your gameplay-based power selections!

Hey, you know what, all you... Empathy Defenders? You can't do any of the Striga content. Just plain can't. /Emp controllers, too. You want a certain set of powers, you're locked out of content. Reroll or suck it.

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Nonsensical. You can play *any* character and choose any patron. You just are stuck with that choice, once you have made it (barring Epic ATs, of course).

You are only being barred from taking the other patrons and their power pool choice.

That's it.

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So, the only solution I can see is to have a second option available: a way to progress through a completely neutral story-arc/TF that grants epic powers but no NPC master for those of us more concerned with concept and story (our own concepts and stories, I should add).

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DO THIS. Have the standard CoH APPS unlocked from doing a different arc. Hell, you could even add Patron Powers to CoH at some point to balance the two games.

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I could totally get behind this, actually.

Of course, it would be nice if the Patron (CoV or CoH) are slightly cooler than regular APPs.

{Edit} But it would have to have a consequence too, that you could not take the Patron Powers later. You basically gave them the finger so you can only try to use "regular" powers.

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Well, thats more or less what I'm driving at. Permanent Patron Powers is a terrible idea. The only way I can see this working is if all the pools have essentially the exact same powers in them, which would make the choice irrelevant from a power's perspective.

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The powerset choice is based on and determined by your patron. But actually taking any powers out of it is based on your level 41/44/47/49 levels.

The patron is set because of a story-arc where you choose one patron above all the other. The fact that you can't unpick a patron is because it's now part of your *history*.

You have to stick with one choice at the end of the game. A choice with a consequence. CoV has a lot more "consequences" than CoH does, to add more flavor to the game.

I was really upset to find out that not interacting with a glowie *before* the insane tech does makes that contact tell me to take a hike, but it was cool because my failure actually impacted me more than just a bit of debt.

I've actually heard a friend complain that because he didn't take one of the combat hostages back to the entrance and it died that he failed a Technician Naylor mission (and won't be talked to again.)

And of course, failing to rescue Naylor from the Nemesis dimension shuts off that contact too.

Consequences.... how *novel*.

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If the powers are unlocked by mission content, and that's a big if, then they'll likely fall into the usual 40-45 45-50 division.

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I'd say unlocking new powers via missions is anything but the "usual" so I don't see why the level range for the missions would be the "usual" either...

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I think it's an all or nothing content. You talk to Arbitor Rein, make your choice do the patron content and now you have your patron power pool. You don't have to actually *take* any power, but you can at level 41.

Oh, and that means the content will have to be level 40 for sure, as you get a new power at 41.

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But it doesn't matter how it works! What if I decide, for example, that I actually hate the way Scorpion's Mace looks with my character?
Now I'm screwed in the A. What the damn Mace does doesn't make any difference.

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Then you have the choice of not using the mace and just using normal pools (just like heroes.)

I'm 99% postive that the reason this isn't respecable is that it ties into your badge/souvenir rewards for the Patron Story Arc.

You do the story arc (now the *history* of your character) you have officially pissed off all of the other patrons and only the one you picked will be your sugar-daddy.

A decision with a consequence! My gosh!

How CoV where if you fail a mission, the contact tells you to take a hike and won't *ever* talk to you again?

I'm quite happy to see it, myself.

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Now that's an assumption. I've never seen the devs say that you get a generic ancillary pool if you don't go with a patron. If you mean that a person who chooses not to consume this content is stuck with just their basic four pools then I don't think that's a good idea.

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I never mentioned a generic ancillary pool at all, I just mentioned that you don't have to pick the powers from your sugar-daddy if you don't want to.

It really does make sense *story-wise* that after you've committed to be Ghost Widow's lackey/henchman/whatever that the other patrons are going to consider you an enemy and won't give you squat.

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I agree with you for on the 'how it works doesnt matter' argument.

The only thing that really matters is, since these things are permanent for the forseeable future what will happen when they are tweeked for balance.

Everything else is moot since it can be tested on the test server.

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Do you really find the APPs in CoH to be unbalanced between the different sets? They all seemed to do what they want.

I've never even bothered to switch mine on test on my one 40+ character, just get different powers within it. (Currently having all of them.)

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Actually, most of the Hero APPs haven't been touched since they first hit the Test server in issue 4. As a matter of fact, the only Hero APP power that's been altered at all is the Blaster Force of Nature, IIRC.

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Well, i5 and ED too. I know I lost some resistance on my Dark Armor power in Dark Mastery.

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I agree with you for on the 'how it works doesnt matter' argument.

The only thing that really matters is, since these things are permanent for the forseeable future what will happen when they are tweeked for balance.

Everything else is moot since it can be tested on the test server.

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Do you really find the APPs in CoH to be unbalanced between the different sets? They all seemed to do what they want.

I've never even bothered to switch mine on test on my one 40+ character, just get different powers within it. (Currently having all of them.)

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But it doesn't matter how it works! What if I decide, for example, that I actually hate the way Scorpion's Mace looks with my character?
Now I'm screwed in the A. What the damn Mace does doesn't make any difference.

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Then you have the choice of not using the mace and just using normal pools (just like heroes.)

I'm 99% postive that the reason this isn't respecable is that it ties into your badge/souvenir rewards for the Patron Story Arc.

You do the story arc (now the *history* of your character) you have officially pissed off all of the other patrons and only the one you picked will be your sugar-daddy.

A decision with a consequence! My gosh!

How CoV where if you fail a mission, the contact tells you to take a hike and won't *ever* talk to you again?

I'm quite happy to see it, myself.

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Then how about waiting until it hits Test and see how many powers or how much flexibility you have with doing a respec? Your answers will come when I7 hits Test and the devs clear things up better. Instead of jumping to conclusions, see what happens before claiming they completely screwed something up you dont have a clue what it is yet.

I reserve judgement on things like this until I actually see and try it. Then I make a clear post for or against it rather then just bluntly saying they dropped the ball.

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It doesn't matter how many powers are in the set, the point remains you can't choose a different one down they line should you feel the need to.

And it's not because they want it that way - it because they didn't take it into account when designing the content.

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Realistically, it won't matter "game-wise".

Let's look at what Ancillary Power Sets "basically" do in CoH.
[*]Tanks: Mezz or missing self-buffs plus ranged attacks.[*]Scrappers: Basically, ditto.[*]Blasters: Armor, self-buffs and possible attacks.[*]Defenders: Armor, self-buffs and a possible mezz.[*]Controllers: Armor, attack, self buffs.

I think we are likely to see that Patron Power Sets follow the same steps.
[*]Corruptors: Get very similar power sets thematically to Defenders and blasters.[*]Master Minds: Ditto, I think.[*]Dominator: Armor, self-buffs, self-heals.[*]Brutes: Missing self-buffs, ranged attacks and a possible mezz.[*]Stalkers: Missing self-buffs, ranged attack and a possible mezz.

For a "random" example, my E/E brute is missing a self heal and has no ranged attacks. Most likely *all* of the patron powers have a ranged attack(s), mezz or debuff single target and a self-buff of some sort. But GW's will be a ghostly power, Sicciro (SP?) will be lightning bases and so on.

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Conjecture? It's possible that each patron set will have a few powers for everyone and the actual patron choice is more asthetic.

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More than likely, each Patron Power pool will be AT specific for ATs that get a power pool (which I bet leaves Kheldians in the cold after the crossover goes live).

So each patron power will give brutes and scrappers a ranged attack, flavored by the patron.

Corruptors, Dominators and Master Minds will all get a "shield" power and self-recovery powers.

Probably slightly different based on ATs, but that's about it.

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So getting a Patron Pool involves doing an arc? What happens if I decide that I don't like that patron and want to respec into a different patron pool later?

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It's pretty obvious how the Patron Pool is going to be unlocked... by having the story arc completion badge for your patron.

That's why it's permanent per se. You can't respec badges.

Is that including the -5% DEF debuff on Unyeilding Stance? That seems a bit high with only one person in melee.

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With Enhancement Diversification comes a benefit for ALL City of Heroes powers.

Every power, across the board, is getting a 13.33% reduction in its Endurance cost.

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That helps but some of my characters notice the pinch even more after ED with out stamina 6 slotted or Conserve power six slotted as well. Even with END reductions in all my attack powers its more noticeable than before. I would carry more blues to cover the gap but universally i need to carry more greens because I take more damage and the amount I dish out is lower. Granted with recharges DPS might be able to stay the same but when I need to put down that one hard mob and it takes 4 of my attack chain instead of say 3 (it used to) its noticeable. END and incoming damage wise.

Just my two cents after many months of testing.

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I'll have to chime in, Conserve Power just isn't up enough to even think about doing without Stamina.

While I think that ED was pretty good for the most part, some powers (with really long recharges) need a bit of tweaking to be useful again.

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Here's the current numbers in testing (subject to change):

Base Entry Room: Free
Workshop Room (2x2): 100,000p
Lowest Power Empowerment Station (requires 0 Energy, 0 Control): 15,000p
Salvage Rack (requires 0 Energy, 0 Control): 15,000p

Total Cost for working Salvage storage and a working Empowerment Station: 130,000 Prestige


EDIT: Added in Energy and Control numbers.

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:Bah. Hit the submit:

So we now have to incredible extremes. You have something within the reach of a single person (I've earned more than 150k of prestige) and then the costs for actually making a useful base.

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The problem, in a nutshell, is that some people don't think they really mean it.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

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That's not an ad hominem in the slightest. Some people are doubtful that the Devs are going to deliver. Saying so does not amount to a personal attack.

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And the reason for that disbelief (in this case) is that Prestige costs for items are incredibly out of wack for super-bases.

Almost everything SBs are balanced around the utmost min-maxers, even though they just retooled all the powers towards the *median* players.

In the several SGs I've joined recently, the average SG has about 20 people. Not 50+ that play regularly.

They really goofed on their numbers here and it totally shocking to me that they can't see it and are not taking any steps to really fix.

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The additions sound great but they certainly do sound ridiculously expensive. Especially the ones where you can create your own special buffs for your SG.

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OK, stop there. Positron has explained that the whole POINT of the empowerment stations and the storage devices is that they CAN be afforded by a small SG, to make their bases more functional. This is supposed to be the boost that small SGs need.

The one thing they won't be is ridiculously expensive.

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I think the players have a very different definition of "ridiculously expensive" than the developers.

Millions of prestige for a room? Sheesh.

NO MORE HAZARD ZONES! EVIL!

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Since AS is practically a melee snipe, shouldn't it follow the rules for snipe attacks and have it's range and line of sight checked twice? Once when the attack is initiated and once when it is resolved. Not like now, when people can start up AS and kill someone 100 feet away because the target moved.

If not, can someone tell me how to interrupt a stalker running Elude or similar powers? It's impossible to hit them even if I can see them perfectly fine.

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This has been brought up a couple times internally. The problem with making AS check Range twice is that it would be virtually impossible to land in PvP. It would also make it unique in that all other melee powers only check range once, so even if your target is running, you will still land the attack, no matter how far away they get.

It DOES check line of sight twice, so if you constantly take routes which break LOS frequently, you can stop Assassin attacks.

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I think what most people hate is that AS can "land" even if you teleport out over 155yds.

Perhaps the second AS range check could be something like 30' for TPers being *gone* and yet people still in melee can't break AS lock just by moving two feet?

Does anyone know why this bind isn't "good" anymore?

"/bind lshift+lclick powexec_name teleport" teleports me to the location and then leaves a target reticule up.

I even *copied* my hero with teleport self's binds to my villain and it didn't {explitive deletect} work.

WTH?

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Then is there any chance of the drop rates for lyso's and enzymes being reduced to better even out the "economy"?

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Heck, I'd like an actualy "reward" screen to pick the right HammiO.