Frosticus

I think he means the much stronger damage buffs that defs have from powers like FS, aim, souldrain. It can very quickly close the damage gap. FS is maybe not the best case though because it is pretty easy to cap your damage with it at which point the corr is significantly ahead of the def due to having a much higher ceiling.

While technically true I also don't "have" to get the oil changed in my car. It comes with similar implicit risks that you are very likely drastically shortening the expected life cycle.

One could also make a very very strong argument that if no new content was being added the price would indeed drop because whether you (generic you) want to face reality or not there is more than one subscription based alternative on the market.

You'll have better luck doing this on a traps/x/dark defender if one were to read your def requirements literally

IMO it depends on the toon. If you have the juice to run DN it can make you significantly more survivable. Gloom is a pretty beefy attack, but as you say it costs a lot. The widow has a ridiculous number of attacks and even debuffs regen a bit. If you have the endurance to support it Soul will definitely make you safer and faster than the other choices in a single target scenario.

Granted the widow is made of stuff weaker than tissue paper, but your agro generation can keep a target off of it. It will easily get wiped if it does aoe's like footstomp though.

As an example if AV is hitting for 1000 damage and you have 70% s/l res it would hit for 300 damage. If you slap him with DN (assuming he isn't resisting the debuff) it would reduce that attack down to 790 and you'd then resist it further down to 237. Of course that is the expected 21% difference, just drawn out, but it also can let you exceed the 90% damage reduction cap of resistances. An /ela facing energy damage w/ darkest night is more survivable than an ela tank in the same situation. Well probably pretty close to even cause the tank has a larger heal and more hp regen, but hopefully you get what I'm trying to say.

The other nice thing is that if you can generate any -res through something like Achilles if available to you it will make the -dam of DN a bit more powerful still. Nice little side bonus of not only increasing your damage, but also your survivability.

I was thinking of a way to make it non-binary that would be numerically and most likely tangibly better than the way it currently operates.

I don't know how feasible this would be but (arbitrary numbers) I wouldn't mind testing out a system of end drain that operates through tiers of negations.
ie. Drain npc down to:
70% end and 1 random attack is greyed out and become unusable. It could be their brawl or it could be their KO blow. Random
50% end and a 2nd random attack is greyed
30% end and a 3rd random attack is locked out
20% 4th
10% 5th
0% as current

I think I'd start with a system that only counters "attacks", but who knows it could be expanded to include pretty much any power the NPC has.

That way it isn't an all-or-nothing set up like it pretty much is now and it would work a bit more consistently because even some powerful end sappers have issues keeping a mob floored constantly. It would also make set ups that can drain a bit of end, but nothing special (like elec melee/assault) get a bit more mileage out of that secondary effect. And a bit more predictable results when stacking -end sources rather than 100% danger vs 0% danger that it nearly is now.

Sort of make it work a bit more like -recharge where even a little bit actually does something and just like -rech as you get the target closer to the limit it becomes more and more potent.

The sequence does not matter. If the res is applied before or after it still boosts the -dam. It is pretty sweet at times.

I can't be bothered to check right now, but iirc Achilies is unresistable -res, so even in the event of a target having resistance it would still fully boost the -dam by 20%. Not really a huge issue except in cases like an AV using unstoppable it will help a bit.

I dunno the full explanation, but something like damage and resistance are the same thing so their opposites are the same too. Sometimes a bug will pop up where slotting for damage greatly increases the resistance value too.

Essentially if your seekers both hit and apply 53.2% -dam and you apply acid mortar's -res it will jump up to 67%. If you purchase a power analyzer it is really easy to see. I doubt it is working as intended, but I sort of doubt they can fix it, or at least not easily.

Basically it is really easy for a traps/sonic (or dark/son for that matter) to floor a targets damage at 10%. Which is essentially like having 90% resistance (ie tank cap). What I haven't tested is whether your resistance works on top of that, but it should. Reduce their outgoing damage and then resist it with your shield (ie app armor). In some situations toons like a traps/son can be one of the most survivable characters in the entire game, while also doing the same for everyone around them.

It's worth noting that seekers can stack too. The debuff lasts 40 seconds, so getting ~10 seconds of stacking on a tough target isn't unrealistic

Even something as simple as seekers+acid+howl can provide freakishly good aoe mitigation, (while also providing a lot of force multiplication). Like numbers that sonic resonance would kill for. Of course it requires in combat time to do though.

At the same time a target with resistance will resist your -dam effect. Ifit has 50% res it is going to cut all of your -dam in half.

A good example is an AV with unstoppable. Prior to popping it you can make them hit like a wet noodle, when they fire it off though they suddenly start hitting like a mac truck again.

Other traps combos can still provide a heap of -dam through things like achilies -res, stacking acid mortar and/or stacking seekers.

tbh, I don't even use mines. They are good if you lack aoe damage, but if you have aoe blasts I find it more enjoyable to do that.

Ya they are nice if you stack em up and blow up a tough enemy, but it depends what you define as "tough". I just did about 15 mins vs Stateman AV (no insp/temps) on my fire/traps with just triage as my healing source. With a little maneuvering I was in no danger. I haven't manage to kill him...yet. IMO there aren't many situations that are "tough" enough that a traps can't tackle head on where sitting and stacking mines will be more efficient of an approach. I'm sure they are out there though, but I just like playing my trappers really aggressively.

A well built trapper with aidself is nearly unkillable outside of getting def debuffed, or against mobs with high tohit such as Ralaruu.

If you hit softcap (either pure def or by adding in the tohit debuff of seekers)+ the dam debuff of seekers+ the -20% rech of PT+triage I figure you have 97.947% damage mitigation making you 48.7x more survivable than a 'naked' defender.
That doesn't account for the more intangible benefits of alpha absorption, the mez of seekers, or the mez of PT, or the aggro that Acid can soak, nor the avoidance affect of caltrops. And of course the more hp you get and more regen you squeeze in just makes it stronger too.
Swap is available at lvl 10 for defs. The "meaty" attacks come at 28 and 35.

I'm a big fan of pairing it with /sonic blast. The -res boosts the -dam* of seekers making things hit like kittens. That and /sonic is the best at facing tough (ie more hp) targets and generally you want to be in one spot for a bit to get the most mileage from your drops.

*If debuffed by acid and hit by both seekers it will actually do -67.3% damage vs an even con with no resistances instead of the expected -53.2%

I also like it paired with /archery. Many archers need to use obstructions to safely cast Rain of Arrows, but a trapper can just get right in there, PT the whole spawn and launch RoA without fear. Or if using it from range never worry about mobs running out of it as seekers will keep them bunched up and preoccupied while RoA animates and does its thing.

I don't have rogue, but I can imagine some of the complaints about using hail of bullets from melee range due to it being a pbaoe evaporate when paired with traps as it lets you be very safe even while standing right in the middle of it all.

I haven't seen ANY of that occurring in this thread. In fact the numbers posted have been for SO's, Hasten, Hasten+70% global rech. There has been nothing like what you are talking about coming from anywhere but your own mouth.

Like Nihili said this has primarily resulted in requests for improvements to Fire Armor so it can at least make a solid claim about its offensive nature. I've personally stated offhand that SC was more balanced with the old numbers. You can interpret that however you want. I'm just stating numbers.

I've reread the thead I don't see where I talked about pylons at all. I wouldn't because that is one specific scenario that in no way represents typical gameplay. I'm pretty sure you are the one that brought up pylons because it is an easy Red Herring to defeat any relevant discussion that was occurring. You were pretty successful in it too.

If you look over what was being talked about was burn vs SC, burn+FE+blazing aura vs SC+AAO. There was absolutely no discussion of single target performance at all until you dragged it into the conversation.

That said, you did cite an example of where an aura has achieved nearly double the typical performance and I explained why that specific corner case is possible. SC+AAO is possible on every shield combination. It is an important difference.

Totally irrelevent to what was being discussed. There are already discussions going on about Pylon solo'ing. In fact there is a 40 or so page one dedicated to it. The rest of your post is just you off on some tangent that while possibly worthwhile to discuss, it probably deserves its own thread.

Without being rude you are being asked nicely to tone it down as you are being very aggressive in your position. Prior to your arrival it was a very calm and collected discussion occurring that spanned quite a few areas, the very least of which was "pylon solo'ing".

My discussion of the actual range of the power was because you ignorantly said it had a 10ft range and like pretty much everything you have stated about traps is has been founded on very poor knowledge of the set. The fact that it has a very usable range isn't justification for the power, but rather an understanding of how layered mitigation works that is the justification for taking the power.*

And I've said nothing to contradict that position I originally took.

That said, for me to lose the regen debuff it means I have to jump outside of blasting range based on where I personally position it. When I make the decision to flee mobs then I suppose I accept that my stationary traps will not be coming with me. I can't recall the last time I had to high-tail it away though. I currently play my corr on +2/8/AV's on, and my defender is only at +1/6/ AV on until I get a few more IO's to get my AOE def up to par.

If I encounter a tough AV I turn it down to +0. The one nice thing is my def will have softcapped psy def when the build is done, which will allow me to breeze through things my corr struggles with such as rikti mentalists that hit with mesmerize constantly.

I don't recall ever saying caltrops was mutually exclusive from any power in the traps set, so I'm not sure why you are stating it like it is a coherent point for the second time now. If you lean heavily on caltrops for mitigation that is fine, but it is worthwhile to be aware that for most people the set offers considerably stronger tools for that purpose.

*Layered mitigation:
FFG+seekers+some other def in my build puts me at softcap = 90% reduction in damage.
Seekers reducers their damage by ~50% = 95% reduction in damage

If a spawn was going to do 20k damage per minute I've reduced that down to 1000 damage. Leaving me with 17 hp. Of course you naturally regen 4.2hp/sec, so I'd actually be at 269hp, aka deep orange health.

By adding in Triage beacon my regen goes up to 16.9hp/sec. Meaning that over the course of the fight the one minute fight I walk away suffering 3 damage. 1014hp>269hp, which means I don't have to stop before the next fight while the person with no TB would.

By layering my mitigation I can effectively survive 339 minutes of incoming damage that would kill a naked defender in 3 seconds.

edit: without TB I could survive 3.78 minutes. Hopefully I don't need to point out that 339 minutes>3.8 minutes?

At least you are being adamant about leaving your brain out of the discussion. If you need more mobility than that during a fight it is probably because you are relying on caltrops to keep you alive.

Most maps if you moved further than TB allows it would put you right into another spawn... Thankfully you have caltrops to mitigate them all.

You aren't using the power correctly then, put the recticle in the spawn, they don't fly quickly and will NEVER stray out to chase down some minion in the front. They only do that if you summon them at your feet and they will attack w/e comes at you first.
The highest chance to hit you can ever get is 95%, you shouldn't be playing this game if you believe what you say you believe.

I wouldn't call darkest night a "necessary" power either, but with full slotting it does:
29% tohit debuff and -37.5% damage.

vs
20% tohit debuff, -53% dam, -180% perception, 25% chance of stun x2 and the ability to absorb an alpha with zero risk to yourself. While not "necessary" I'd say it is pretty darn useful. I mean it is one of the best powers in the game if you use it properly. Unfortunately it is bound by the 95% tohit cap...ya you're right it is definitely not very good

Caltrops is in no way mutually exclusive from PT. Mobs flee from Acid mortar and caltrops, they don't tend to flee from poison trap. You use seekers to clump and then you use PT to hold them in that spot for awhile while you/your team drops them.

You are welcome to drop caltrops on them too, it will help prevent them trying to flee acid mortar. It's just nice if they are held for 10 seconds first.
its a 40ft radius, so an 80 range end to end. I'll attach sceens in a sec cause you obviously don't know what you are talking about with regard to this power.

This is just gibberish. I do agree though that FFG alone is not enough to mitigate a spawn, but seekers+FFG+PT+triage is enough. Layered mitigation. If you don't understand it then you can't be helped.

No there's just you playing it like a dev blaster, which is why you mentioned the two sets together. Everyone else is more or less agreed about where the sets strengths are.
So you're taking your toys and going home? I have 130 levels of traps under my belt, 40 of which is on a defender. An appeal to authority, which you are doing is an indication you don't have anything actually worth while to stand on.

Everything a corr can do with traps a defender can do better because they have much higher values on the key powers (acid, seekers, FFG) and PT is a smidge better for them too. If you are just relying on caltrops and tripmine then ya a corr is going to be much better lol.

if he want a powerful trapper he'd probably listen to us, if he wants a dev blaster with mez protection and less damage, he'd listen to you.

Hopefully he has a bit better reading comprehension than yourself and understands the difference between being in melee while it is completely safe and then moving out of that area to mow them down while they are still being neutralized.

Granted if you use all the mitigation available to traps you can stand in the middle of a spawn nearly indefinitely, but that is besides the point when you could just sit way back and blast away protected by caltrops.

You are aware you can use seekers from 60ft away yes? you target where you want them to go and they are summoned near that spot. I'm unsure of their threat modifier, but mobs will turn away from you to attack them even if you are spotted. They rarely self destruct instantly so mobs tend to gather around them and clump up a bit.

Seekers provides ample time to run in and drop PT and Acid. PT then holds them for ~10 seconds. What you do after that period of near immunity of alpha absorbtion and mob mezzing is up to you.

But it is worth noting that togther the seekers will debuff acc by 20% and damage by 53%. FFG is 20% def so if you are facing even cons (which is a nice idea before IO for def, just crank the team size up) you are already sitting at 40% defense and they are doing half damage after they come out of your aoe hold. That is a hell of a lot of mitigation.

Have you played traps? seriously. As soon as you put down PT you are allowed to jump back and blast them all to hell if you want. The reason it is nice to get in the middle of them for a bit is to get PT down and becasue acid mortar tends to cycle targets better from the middle than from range where it will just target the nearest enemy over and over.

You may not need seekers, but I can assure you that you move through mobs slower and with less safety than my trap builds. And you are far less useful to teams.

If by situational you mean useful in every situation, then I agree. Either you don't know what PT does or you aren't using it near mobs so that it fires. When it goes off it is very difficult to not see what it does to an entire spawn.

How is a 40ft radius confining you to a single spot? Have you even used the power? Heck if I cast it on the back side of a spawn I'm often still affected by it in the next spawn if I focus my efforts toward the front of them.

Do I need to upload a screen shot to show you how far you can move and still be affected by it because from what you are saying I'm questioning if you've ever used traps.