Frosticus

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I can appreciate your liking of a melee centric pet. jack and pooman are identical in behavior up to a point. They both use their ranged attack(s) once and then close to melee. They then proceed to punchasize things in the face, but when Pooman has no melee attacks recharged he will use hurl from point blank range. Jack on the other hand will stand there and do nothing until ice sword or GIS are recharged.

Just as a blaster can use ranged attacks in melee, so can a pet, but Jack is not.

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Jack being kb'd for 5 seconds wouldn't magically subtract 15-20 seconds from the kill speed so that it is faster than earth by the amount it is supposed to be .


Weatherby is correct though this is not relevant to the thread beyond it originally being noted that Jack was not WAI.

I've PM'd Castle regarding Jack failing to cycle his attacks properly.

Looking forward to the results from your other trollers Magicj.

I think you are missing the entire point of magicj's testing tbh.

it isn't about factoring in a secondary, IO's or optimal set specific slotting. It is about slotting every primary with SO's and seeing how they do on their own in the damage department.

And no even with speed boost frosty would still do significantly more damage if he actually cycled his attacks. Unless you believe 50% recharge could get an attack with a 14+second cycle time and an attack with 6 second cycle time to fire off continuously without any massive gaps.

Jack's performance would be significantly better if he cycled his attacks regardless of secondary choice. Like over twice as much damage better. Not sure why someone wouldn't want that... Unless that person likes seeing pooman do more damaage than Jack while taunting and being practically unkillable?

As for the rest of your post. I apologize if you have assumed I'm upset, but you are the only one visibly getting bent out of shape. So perhaps taking your own advice of "mellowing out" would be adamant. I really don't care what the results of this test indicate one way or the other beyond satisfying curiousity, but I do care when powers are bugged; especially when the bug is resulting in sub-optimal performance.

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I haven't taken the time to read the entire thread, but the time for Illusion without PA bothers me . . . and I think I figured out why.

Spectral Wounds has huge burst damage, but the spectral damage heals back after a few seconds. On a boss, you might as well not have the spectral damage in the first place, since there is always plenty of time to heal back.

However, on a minion, one shot of Blind-SW will often finish off a minion BECAUSE HE DIES BEFORE THE SPECTRAL DAMAGE HEALS BACK. The net effect is that Illusion actually does a lot more damage than this test would suggest, but only if he is able to kill off the foe quickly enough to avoid the heal back. An Illusion controller will therefore kill off minions quickly, probably more quickly than other controllers, but will take longer on higher HP foes.

In playing an Illusionist, this is important to understand. Why? Well, when PA is out, they will randomly attack whatever foes are around. If you kill off the minions, which the illusionist can do quickly, the PA are more likely to focus their damage on the higher HP foes, helping you kill much faster.

This is an example of where the test may not be taking into consideration the unique properties of a particular powerset.


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It is worth noting, but in this case the test is just straight up st damage vs a moderately high hp target (boss).

Generally an Ill will have PA up for most boss encounters, but maybe not, which is why it is appreciated to show w/ and w/o.

A test that depicted spawn to spawn performance might be ideal, but that will likely be a "build" test rather than just using a primary powerset. And in being a build test, would be open to even more debate than what is currently being done.

Also my experience with blind+spec wounds is that it does not two shot minions without significant boosting from a secondary. Not sure if that is what you are saying, or just that you will usually kill them off before the healback, which I can agree with.

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Something is wrong with Jack ( I don't have a high lvl ice troller to test myself) he isn't cycling his ranged attacks in melee (pooman does) and once his ice sword is out he never puts it away, so no freezing touch (just like pooman used to do once he pulled out the mallet) so he only uses freezing touch once and each ranged attack once and then the sword comes out and he never uses anything else again.

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Sounds like something right with Jack to me. By not wanting to cycle his ranged attack and keeping his sword out, he's not tempted to stay at range where he only does a fraction of as much damage. This was probably done deliberately by the developers to encourage melee behavior in Jack.

The lack of freezing touch is a little bit of a bummer, but hey, how often does a full-fledge controller really the pet throwing an occasional hold? I can tie up several spawns all by my lonesome.

That said, it is a little odd Earth is outperforming Ice in the tests. It must be Volcanic Gasses or Stalagmite being used or something. Jack's love of melee should be providing an edge.

[Ah, I see why. At one point during the test, the Boss kicked Jack away (about 3:10 - 3:15).]

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No you aren't understanding. Stoney does more damage than Jack right now because Jack is only using TWO attacks. he has 5 attacks that he is supposed to cycle in melee range. He is supposed to use his iceblasts in melee range just like stoney uses hurl in melee range.

jack is supposed to be a damage monster to offset the squishiness, he is clearly not wai in the video as he is outdamaged by pooman and pooman is pretty much indestructible.
*the few seconds he was blown back aren't what is important in this case.

jack is doing EXACTLY what pooman used to do before he was overhauled and given a new attack so he would work properly.

I can assure you it is not "right"

I hear what you are saying. Blasters can't exceed 20% def though, no matter what.

with frozen shield they get 30% elusivity to s/l/e/n/p while still having a hole to fire and cold.

Unless it was a blaster in pff (20% def and 80% elusivity)? then you simply missed with your widow because of bad luck. You very likely had capped, or near capped tohit chance. Just like rolling 3 crits in a row and winning a fight, it happens.

Personally I have an entire separate tab just for tohit rolls and I watch it like a hawk. I know if I missed/hit because of luck and I know when I missed/hit because of def+elusivity is too high, or not high enough to stop me.

the numbers are what they are. It is very difficult to balance def so that the user feels rewarded and so that the attacker doesn't feel ripped off.

Under the current ruleset I believe it is actually the lack of dr on acc (uh I cringe just writing that heh, as I don't like dr much at all) and attacks having higher base acc that are preventing def from being properly balanced. It is very difficult to attempt balancing with such large variance at hand.

just use and slot power push for kb, no others.

the auto buff from phalanx fighting is not enhanceable, but the buff you get from close teammates is.

it is 5% base for tanks, mids assumes 1 person in range. You have 61.8 ranged def. And 58.1 aoe def. And 40.6 melee def when you are all alone.

Might I ask why you have built up so much aoe def for a pvp build?

I guess it really does depend what end you are on. My storm/sonic/power def cranking off pbu+kistmet+tactics+aim (used to be in excess of +180% tohit) is now capped at 30% tohit thanks to DR. In fact doing all of that nets me like 1-2% more tohit than just using my slotted aim.

w/ 30% tohit and 80% acc slotting and 40% global acc I can hit a toon w/ 35% def+ elusivity 69% of the time while that amount of tohit is up.

I've actually found more success cycling pbu (+ all my other junk) until it expires and then aim, as that gives me a much longer window of possibly hitting.

that's vs 35% def though, which tbh is pretty decent for a solo build w/ no tier 9 (say fortunata). However if the def toon has the ability to add defense and hit 55% def (say NW in elude), I can NOT exceed 38% chance to land any attack w/ the above mentioned build.

If I were to crank up my acc to 90% in powers and 90% global (at this point we are talking a billion dollar build likely, just to combat a SO'd widow in elude) I can get my chance to hit up to 49% during my tohit buff windows.

Maybe that is acceptable and maybe it isn't. These numbers are true for every AT trying to hit a high def AT w/ elusivity unless they have attacks with higher base acc (say KO blow w/ 1.2x). That particular attack would land 58% vs elude and capped outside of it w/ the super acc build. A non billion $ build w/ enhancing like my def would land 46% in elude and 83% outside of it with that one attack.

Long story short def w/ elusivity is way too strong vs builds that aren't extremely IO'd for acc and tohit, but likely still too weak vs one's that are AND have higher base acc attacks.

We know that for w/e reason the devs didn't put a dr curve onto +acc (or if they did it is tiny). Where it used to be massive tohit that ripped apart def it is now capped tohit, absurdly high acc, and higher base acc attacks.

To remove the variance the easiest solution is to remove the higher base acc that some attacks have (mainly looking at the ones with 1.2 modifiers, as 1.05 ones don't seem to really make a difference), put a harder DR curve on +acc, and then take another balancing pass at def and elusivity.

That isn't fun though, but really with such variance of builds and base acc in attacks it is almost impossible to prevent the scenario from being unbalanced one way or the other.

I think we can all agree it shouldn't take 5 people to drop a SO'd out widow, scrapper, or tank, but at the same time how easily should one be able to do it?

Why is your def more important than my tohit? Why is my tohit more important than your def? Who's right? they already made the decision for us w/ control stating "your control is not more important" and new we have 2-4 second mez.

See they started down a slippery slope w/ normalization and dr because once you start heavily equalizing everything you need to actually equalize everything or else there will always be haves and have nots.

Rather than embrace the chaotic balance vision of team based pvp in i12, they decided to gear everything more toward individual performance. That decision means that as long as your brawl does more damage than mine, we have a problem.

this brings up a pretty good point. As a def user one would likely feel they should rarely be hit, say like 5-10% of the time (like pve has tought us is ok to believe).

As a person fighting a def user we feel we should hit them often because our toon is awesome heh (say 70%+)

The value right now is somewhere inbetween (usually around 40% hit rate) and that might very well be "fair" mathematically to both sides, neither feels it is fair.

I call BS on it though, that hit rate would be acceptable in a situation where you couldn't base run, phase, hide in mobs or w/e to effectively make you untouchable unless you decide to be hit.

I also call shenanigans on your account of your experiences. I've played my fort a few times now and it is barely even frankenslotted at lvl 34 and it felt like one of the easiest pvp toons I've ever played while ML is up. I can only imagine that IO's would take the toon from ridiculously easy to uber easy.

And while I know you to be honest and not make things up, I'll suggest carefully observing what is killing your widow so easily and bare in mind that psy blasters are reported as bugged to f**k right now, doing both unresistable and untyped damage (haven't confirmed myself, just citing reports).

quite right, forgot about confront. Very high priority too under the new rules.

earth ftw!!!

pooman didn't miss a single attack which is certainly a + for the set in long term performance.

Something is wrong with Jack ( I don't have a high lvl ice troller to test myself) he isn't cycling his ranged attacks in melee (pooman does) and once his ice sword is out he never puts it away, so no freezing touch (just like pooman used to do once he pulled out the mallet) so he only uses freezing touch once and each ranged attack once and then the sword comes out and he never uses anything else again.

I thought all that was supposed to be fixed for him? He is doing a fraction of the damage he should do if he cycles his attacks. Assuming he is hitting with his attacks (w/ two acc SO's he will) ice should be beating earth in the post 32 tests, but Jack isn't functioning correctly.

Wonder if anyone has bugged Jack's behavior recently because he is doing exactly what pooman used to do that got him overhauled.

Great tests though and great work.

in i13 barb swipe is your most damaging attack (from your primary)

jump kick (if you're picking leaping anyway) does 112 base dam and flurry (if you're picking speed anyway) does 170 base dam.

Which means, flurry would be your hardest hitting attack by a fair margin and jump kick would be fall in behind barbswipe and impale.

Three powers I'd use: impale, barbswipe, and flurry.

Any other powers and you will just be doing less damage.

For post sirens I'd add: lazer eyes (130 base dam) and trow spines (crappy damage, but another ranged attack).

Ripper is trash now and your powerpools should be:
speed - hardest attack, hasten, and speed = good
leadership - can't hit what you can't see and everyone has at least a stealth IO
leaping - not nearly as vital as before, but sj is still really good
fitness or concealment - considering you will never shut of sj or superspeed under the new suppression rules hurlde and swift are much less useful. If you find you are having end issues then stam is still good. If you can get by without stam, just using QR and IO's then phase is still very good as is stealth+stealth IO.

imo of course

looks good. the only thing I don't like is that such a low hp target doesn't really give an opportunity for the pets to get into their grove.

what I mean is that take ice vs earth for instance. Both pets hit similarily hard (w/ jack doing a bit more damage), but jack has more attacks he can cycle. If the target dies so fast that the pets only run one chain it doesn't give an opportunity for the pets to really distinguish themselves.

Hopefully that makes sense, and I realize we face a lot more low hp targets than anything else it is just something I thought worth observing.

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He is right, but wrong. Defense in large amounts isn't OP. Elusivity though is.

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High amounts of defense is still powerful because tohit caps at 30%. Admittedly it's with the addition of elusivity that it becomes a problem, but if you can get a lot of defense build up, it becomes meaningful.

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The same DR that stops you from getting a lot of to-hit stops you from getting a lot of defense.

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sort of, everyone caps at +30% tohit, but squishies cap at +20% def and tanks/scraps/brutes/stalks/forts cap at 50-55% def +elusivity.

works for me. I'm fairly confident grav will do better w/o propel if it has a fluid attack chain. Certainly a build with damage procs would, but that isn't being considered at the time.

Reason I suggest it is because while propel is a fun power, the amount of corpse blasting it does is just staggering. Similar to "shout" from sonic I drop it as soon as I can seamlessly stream my "weaker" attacks and actually outperform the set had I included the "big hitter"

I just like to see it with evidence because to me nothing says a high damage - heaviest attack in a set is broken better than it being excluded in a min/max build.

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32 as in default 1 slot in the pet 32? or 32 as in post 32 fully slotted primary?

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All the toons will be at least level 35, allowing the powers used in the level 32 test to be fully slotted.

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sounds good. Just to point out though you may want to avoid using the recharge intensive pet sets. As I said earlier afaik they aren't enhancing acc or dam, which was clear in your early vids with the imps doing far less damage than they normally do.

my fire troller matched the 34 seconds of the ill troller in your tests and considering one of my imps ran away for like 5 seconds and my ring of fire has no damage slotting I'm confident we'll see some different numbers this round.

*your ill pets' damage seemed correct from the vid. I'm guessing 90% ish dam slotting on PA and full dam slotting on phant?

If it isn't too much trouble do you want to run it with and without hasten? In particular I'm wondering if grav would be faster w/o propel w/ hasten running.

Anyway, good stuff I'm looking foward to the results.

32 as in default 1 slot in the pet 32? or 32 as in post 32 fully slotted primary?

what do you feel is missing?

CoD operates the same as it always has in that each power has a breakdown. Unfortunately there is no drop down selection that says "sort by pvp elusivity values"

yep. Arcana mentioned one time that /ea can stack another 20% elusivity found in overload (not listed anywhere though) with the rest of the set, but who knows.

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this seems much more like a pve guide than a pvp guide.

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What he said.

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Seems to work fine for me so far. What changes would you suggest to make this for PvP over what appears to be PvE?

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I dunno, a lot. I'm not trying to crap on your work but the devs made pvp a completely different environment than pve in i13. Whereas before it was the same ruleset, just hyperactive, intelligent opponents so most pve crap didn't work.

I wouldn't even put the two on the same page, let alone in the same guide now.

I dunno, could just be me.

haha, ya. Good thing Jack is badass.

this seems much more like a pve guide than a pvp guide.

ok I just did the same test with my fire troller using:
imps - 3 acc/dam HO's
ring of fire - 5 purple immob set (no dam enhances)
hold - 6 from hold sets (no dam enhances)

Starting the timer from the instant the icon starts spinning for imps and stopping it when the lvl 50 death mage dies:

34 seconds

I suspect a dam slotting ring of fire would increase kill speed by another second, maybe 2.

*just for giggles same test, but utilizing my storm powers (starting with spinning icon for imps)
19 seconds (forgot to run hotfeet too)
With epics and imps already out I'm confident I could get it under 10 sec.

Something is off in your original analysis, I've heard that the new pet sets aren't actually enhancing acc or dam, so that could be it.