FourSpeed

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't list for more than you're honestly willing to accept

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you mean "list for less"? Because both are good advice, but for different reasons.

[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed, I did mean "less" for that one. Good Catch. My Bad - duly edited.


Regards,
4

[ QUOTE ]
I find myself curious, as a marketeer, as to the number of my fellows who have
their particular niches in which they earn the majority of their inf, and the rest is just
fluff in the pillowcase.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm definitely in that category, and several of those niches (by toon)

Typically:<ul type="square">[*]My "active" hero and villain sell their drops and do recipe vendoring (guide in sig).
I play these guys almost daily as they're leveling through game content.[*]I have a couple toons that are purely crafters and they have specific (long-term)
niches. I log these in every couple days or so. My lvl-capped (L27) stalker is a prime
example. He PvPs (and these days) AE's only, and crafts in-between.[*]I have my Ebil Marketeers - they spend the most marketeering time, because
they troll the various items looking for opportunistic crafting/flipping. They log in
every week or so, but the market IS what they do.[*]I have 2 high level characters (one hero, one villain) whose job is to lowball
specialty recipes for my alts/SG[*]The remainder don't market at all, even though I do play a few of them occasionally.[/list]So, I have anywhere from 6-10 toons I play regularily, and they all have specific market
approaches based on their role and activity. I doubt most folks are that OCD.


Regards,
4

[ QUOTE ]
The point here is that there are about six simple things you can do to prevent
yourself from getting wiped out by market mistakes, or the Ebil That Men Do.

[/ QUOTE ]Some very good advice in your mini-guide. Once again, Nice Work.

If I could add a just few more points, they'd be:

* Treat the last 5 sales as pricing guidelines, not gospel ... but ...
* Don't bid more than you're honestly willing to pay
* Don't list for less than you're honestly willing to accept
* Always start bidding with a low (crazy low) bid - mine happens to be 111.
You might be surprised at how often it actually works.

Regards,
4


PS> OP's points ZERO and FIVE are very important - patience and planning ftw.

-QR-

It may also be the effect of a Day Job (if you were logged out at
Tram - ie. Commuter badge or a Black Helo - ie. Pilot badge).

I believe that both of those give a temporary movement buff



Regards,
4

-QR-

I certainly wouldn't want to say anything to dissuade your Guide efforts.

As the author of a guide on one of the easiest Marketing techniques there is, I fully
understand the desire to try to be helpful.

Unfortunately, when I read the amount of negative feedback that garnered, and I compare
it to threads here, and even the recent thread in the Base forum, all I can say is "Good Luck".

The totally emotional (and irrational) response of so called "market haters" shows
a mindset that has already been locked in and prevents any possibility of understanding
how things actually work for those people.

As Nightmission says, folks that can set aside that response (or at least contain it), can
already gain the knowledge that would get them the rest of the way past blind prejudice.

Perhaps your guide can be a helpful piece in that puzzle.

Unfortunately, there's also a real possibility that it might be perceived as "market
lies from a marketeer, trying to exploit/manipulate casual gamers".

I'd hope not, but sadly, some folks are certain that the Market is evil, and some folks
are certain the Earth is 6000 years old. Actual facts have no place in either group's
mindset.

Good Luck with your Guide - I hope it outperforms my pessimism.


Regards,
4

[ QUOTE ]
I'm hoping that was short circuit, but I still don't think I like the idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah - agreed.

Typically, on a boss (in Bloody Bay as alluded to earlier), I start with Aim (I don't
have Build-Up in there), and Zapp. That takes 1/2 of the HP and a nice chunk of end.

I follow that up with Lighting Bolt, Charged Bolt and Ball Lightning - because they're
quick, and then Short Circuit.

By that time, I've usually been hit once or twice, but the Boss is at 1/3 or 1/4 health
and drained of end, eliminating it's attacks.

It's all over from there.

The quick recycling powers have come back up and I even throw Tesla Cage in there,
(for the drain, not the hold) and those keep it drained until it's "arrested".

For LT's and Minions that doesn't make much sense because they'd have been long dead
by then, but for bosses, I find it works quite nicely, if not as effectively, without Power Sink.


Regards,
4

[ QUOTE ]
In summary, Deflation means people run around with better Enhancements,
and spend less time getting them. That means faster leveling, dogs and cats sleeping
together, and the end of civilization as we know it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Deflation means: earning rate &gt; cost of living == greater buying power ie. an increase
in the value of inf wrt item prices (purples exempted).

I'm less sure about the Ghostbusters allusion (although it did make me smile).

I'm pretty sure you've not made me see how deflation is a problem.


Regards,
4

[ QUOTE ]
From an economic point of view, CoH is suffering massive Deflation.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with the term Deflation (I was using Inf Surplus), but we mean the same thing.

I question the use of "suffering" though. I'd like some elaboration there.

I essentially agree with your historical perspective, and I think we may be in agreement
about IO's and Purples leading to different economic classes (sort of), but I tend to see
those as "luxury" items. I'm finding myself at some odds with your point of "cost of living"
as increasing though.

That phrase covers the expenses associated with normal activities. So, I'd assume
you're saying that IO's are now becoming the norm and SO's are gradually phasing
out. I'd agree with you about that.

Even so, on one hand you're saying that IO's cost more, but you're also saying that
income rates rose with the addition of salvage and recipes, and a lucky drop skews
it even higher. That income rise should offset the IO costs (perhaps even profitably
so) which implies a flat, or even lowered, cost of living for IO users, and a definite
lowering for holdout SO users.

Furthermore, these days, many common IO's can be had (with patient bids or crafting)
at near or only slightly above SO pricing. Set IO's vary a lot more depending on set,
but I don't think they outstrip the earning rates - again, tending toward a lower cost
of living, ie. greater buying power.

High-end sets and Purples are true luxury items, and they probably deserve separate
consideration just as RL luxury markets are, but I do agree with you that they are increasing.


[ QUOTE ]
2) Yes the Deflation is a problem, because it trivializes Inf.

[/ QUOTE ]

Along the lines of "suffering", I'd also like more elaboration on this statement.

Inf isn't being generated in any other way than it ever was - that's to say, inf is created
only when a content objective occurs (ie. mission complete) or a mob is "arrested".

To be sure, the distribution of said funds has changed drastically with the market, but the
creation mechanism hasn't changed an iota. So, I'm not sure what you mean when you
say inf is "trivialized" - I'd like to understand better what you mean here, and how it
constitutes a problem.

In an economy where the bulk of the population has a flat or lowered cost of living (imho),
I'm not sure how that is bad. In fact, I see it as a door to the luxury segment possibly
being opened (however slowly) to the average player - ie. that price gap may be holding
steady, or perhaps, even narrowing somewhat.


Regards,
4

[ QUOTE ]
useful analogy:


marketeer = white collar office worker

"regular player" = manual laborer


While some people may assign greater moral value to one set of skills or the other,
the bottom line is the system doesn't function without both of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

...and to follow up the analogy...

In RL, the office worker might be able to buy a BMW and the manual laborer probably
has a Ford Econoline van.

In-game, the marketeer has a Ferrari - and so could the regular player if they'd learn
to use the market even a little bit, without fundamentally altering either playstyle... &lt;shrug&gt;


Regards,
4

[ QUOTE ]
Try BL followed by a port in and SS

[/ QUOTE ]

...Try Ball Lightning followed by a port in and Super Speed... ???

wut????

[ QUOTE ]
Looks like someone won the lottery, though I guess someone else lost.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think we may have a new record here. The prior one I recall was in the 600M range.

Ouch.


4

[ QUOTE ]
So I guess this means a holy war between the two side can't be far off.
[/ QUOTE ]Oddly enough, from my perspective, they're both saying much the same thing, but
from a different viewpoint.

Both:

* Emphasize the 3 defining bubble powers.

* Are amusingly in sync with regard to: if you don't like those 3 powers and don't
keep up on casting them, you probably shouldn't play this set - in spite of one
saying "You're NOT a buffbot" and the other saying "You ARE a buffbot" (which IS the
amusing part)

* Appear to be in agreement about the team role and activity priorities within the team

* Seem to agree on the (meh factor) of an FF bothering with attacks, although PK does
cover some herding management concepts (that good storm/grav trollers are familiar with -
after all, it's good to have something helpful to do for the two minutes between bubble
casting)...

PK puts a lot more emphasis on the knockdown/knockback of the other powers in combat
whereas Fulmens tends to really hammer home the defining role which, rightly, IS quite
important for the player to understand if (s)he really intends to go through 50 Levels
of FF-dom.

I enjoyed both guides (re-read PK's when I read this one), but I have to say Fulmens'
did make me laugh out loud a few times (in a good, entertaining way).

Nice Work!


Regards,
4


PS> I really like the eggtimer tip, and maneuvers - good ideas both.

Edit: Hey Fulmen's, you can edit really old posts...

[ QUOTE ]
So, yeah, hate to answer your rhetorical questions, but "Yes. We were poor once, before issue 9."

[/ QUOTE ]

I too, agree with this assessment and the earlier part of the post supporting it.


Regards,
4

[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure it was Nethergoat who posted about eons ago, but influence distribution
and therefore price setting is heavily skewed towards actively played level 50's. They earn inf
faster and even a hundred million doesn't take that long to gain. They are heavy consumers
of the "good" stuff and I think that is why those prices are the ones seeing inflationary pressure.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Eons ago", that was probably the entire story as well. It may still be true now, but it needn't
be the case any more. Why? The market.

The market doesn't create *any* new influence. In fact, it actually removes it (through
fees), although, with hundreds of billions coming into the game normally, it can be difficult
to see that sometimes.

But what it does do, better than any other approach, is share/spread rich people's influence
around to other players (including, thankfully, myself). It helps distribute those billions
to players who aren't actually creating it in any appreciable volume.

The market is the #1 way of *evening out* the distribution of influence in this game.

Think about that for a second.

All those guys running all the tf's, grinding the Cimeoran wall with their perma doms and FOTM
fire blasters make massive amounts of influence through sheer time, effort, and power gaming.

But (and I love this), they also *share* their hard-earned (and deserved) influence with me,
and I don't even have to ask them to do so - because of the market.

They get rid of their excess salvage, recipes, SO's, etc. and they spend large amounts
on the market buying what does interest them at NAO prices - because they can.

Prior to the market, those folks still did those sorts of things, but where did the influence go?

Nowhere. Maybe to a costume... Maybe to some SG buddies, but not to you or me.

If I could make the so-called casual gamers (and Positron) see ONE thing in this game,
I'd want them to see this:

Without a doubt, the market is, in fact, the very best enabler for players in this game.

Anything that actually does break the market skews the influence distribution back into
the hands of the farmers, large SG's, full-time players who are creating the bulk of it.

That's why I find this thread interesting... We've seen a lot of recent changes and we've
observed the market effects. A healthy discussion of those changes, as is occurring here
(imho) is a Good Thing. Personally, I think the most recent changes have helped fix the
disaster that I13 merits was causing.



Regards,
4

[ QUOTE ]
A money surplus is not problematic; an severely uneven money surplus might be.
Nobody likes being the loser.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps. But now you're getting into an entirely different issue altogether.

I've little doubt that the influence distribution is non standard - ie. a relatively small
percentage of the population probably has a large percentage of the wealth.

That's true in RL as well.
RL is a much more difficult nut to crack, unfortunately.

In-game however, it has been demonstrated repeatedly on several occasions that the
L10 challenge is easily met with no special knowledge or techniques at all.

Also demonstrated reliably and repeatedly is that even a modest amount of effort
and knowledge is more than sufficient to easily equip any toon with everything except
the most expensive, top tier shinies.

It has been further shown that (arguably) obscene amounts of influence can be gained
with expert level knowledge and/or focused marketing strategies.

In the standard car analogy, Kias and Hondas are free, essentially just for showing up,
BMW's and Lexuses abound for next to minimal efforts, and even Lamborghini's and
Ferraris are there for the taking, given sufficient time, knowledge and effort.

I'm having a difficult time seeing "losers" here (except for the clueless/lazy) or how
it implies evidence of a poor, broken, game/economy model.


Regards,
4

[ QUOTE ]
They get much stronger after 25+. Just wait when your level 50 with at least 2 kins
while your running Elude with rech sets. You'll feel like your in Granite Armor.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mine's in the high 30's and runs exclusively in duo with my buddy's widow.

Together, they already feel nearly indestructible...


Regards,
4

[ QUOTE ]
FourSpeed, Ball Lightning only does as much Endurance Drain as Charged Bolts and Tesla Cage do: 7%. This is relatively unimpressive. Lightning Bolt drains 10%, and Short Circuit drains 35%. Sure, it'll add up, but it shouldn't be considered primarily a drain power.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Key word "relatively".

Keep in mind the context that it was draining prior to having Power Sink.

In that case, using all of those powers, you can still drain down a boss (I do it in
Bloody Bay all the time with BP Masks for instance). Once you get him there, those
7% shots can help keep him there between Short Circuit firings even though that
isn't their primary function.

You can't drain the boss immediately (like you can with PS & SC), but even with a delay,
the drain will help mitigate damage by reducing the mob's total number of attacks during
the fight.

Clearly, that contributes to survivability. For the riff-raff, it's simpler to just kill them,
but draining (even without PS) is still viable and helpful against bosses.


Regards,
4

[ QUOTE ]
I'd love to be able to get my alts into my solo SG, but I don't think it's going
to happen anytime soon.

[/ QUOTE ]

Depending on your willingness to trust, you can invite another player to your SG
temporarily, and then have them invite your alts 1 by 1 till you have them all there.

Then you can bid adieu to the player you invited and you're all set.


Regards,
4

[ QUOTE ]
More thinking in public on my part here. . . pardon my rambling.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's an interesting thread and discussion - thanks for musing aloud (so to speak, er, type).

I've only been back in-game since last June (having left around I7 timeframe), so that
limits my knowledge of baseline pricing to the past year, and I'll try to keep to that
scope.

Before that, however, in the absence of a refutation of the definitions, can we please
dispense with the term "inflation" for this discussion - that's *not* what we have here.

If Porsche raises the price of its Boxster line, I'm pretty sure "inflation" won't be bandied
about by the general public, when the cost of Saturns, Kia, SUVs, and whatnot are still
roughly what they were before (subject to RL "cost of living" increases which affect
everything over time).

What we're really talking about is market-specific goods, and largely just a subset of
what I would term the "luxury segment". With "store" items flat and the game balanced
about them, the staples and the buying power for them is undiminished. Caviar may be
spendier, but bread and butter aren't.

With regard to common IO's and common salvage, I'm not sure these are permanent
or fully clear trends yet. The past few issues (removal of base salvage, merits, tickets,
removal of tf random drops, ticket nerfs, and more) have had huge effects on market
pricing including some pretty wild swings (common salvage a 1M each at times).

I'm not sure we know if we're back at old EP's for those things yet, or whether new EP's
are firmly established. I know my common IO crafters did a "duck and cover" when
I14 came out, and I know that they're starting to go back to it again now and those
prices, while still a bit volatile, are much closer to what they were a few months ago.

I'm not sure that the same doesn't apply to most common sets as well. You also raise
an excellent point - more players are becoming increasingly aware of them. To that,
I'll add that I13 brought a *lot* of attention to sets, and more probably uniques - After
all the original published rationale for merits was to help the poor casual gamer get
that specific LotG that was out of his meager price range on the market.

Additionally, one might make the case that the AE has, or is, skewing game balance
a bit. On the whole, many of those missions appear more difficult (on average) than
the normal game content - this may be a contributor to a perceived need for IO's, given
AE's newness and popularity.

If so, that could also contribute to more demand, and hence, higher pricing for those items.
In the case of purples, there have been no additional means of supply (unlike Pool C's,
and set's), so, I don't rule out simple economics driving their pricing up (more awareness,
more demand, same limited supply, higher prices).

I'm intrigued by your idea of stratification, and I'd be interested in examining that further,
but I'm sure I've already written enough to glaze the eyes over, so I'll defer for now.

The last thing I do want to mention: @Stillhart

You're correct - we don't have a good handle on income rates so this is all speculation.

We can however, take a ballpark stab at it. It's often been said that an avg L50 can make
~1M / hr just playing the game normally. So, conservatively we can try to come up with
an average earning rate. I don't know what Level the average toon is, but let's cut that
rate 1/3 - call it 350K/hr.

Let's further say that the "average" player plays 3-4 hours /week ... call it 15 hrs / month.
That puts earning rate at 5.25M per month for the mythical average player (of course,
we can do that in an hour, but assume we're all mutants in here...)

Now, if we estimate the monthly subscription rate at 100K? 50K? 25K? - I don't know,
call it 50,000 players, we get a (very conservative imho) average of 262.5 Billion into
the game economy every single month. Personally, I'd guess it's quite a bit higher than
that, but we can call that a starting estimate. If only 1/2 of that hits the market, it's not
too surprising to me to see it hit the luxury segment in a significant way.


Regards,
4


PS&gt; Are there no takers for my question: What's problematic about a money Surplus?

[ QUOTE ]
but you've failed to take your conclusions to the next step. The answer is obviously
that we may have inflation on the things that aren't price-fixed: set IO recipes and salvage
(and by corollary, anything that uses these items, i.e. crafted IOs).

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I believe I did also raise that point. Only *some* things in the market have
rising prices while many things (common sets, common salvage) are returning to price
levels seen a few months ago, which are lower than recent prices in many cases.

The case I haven't seen reasonably presented yet is twofold: Items that are continually
(and permanently) trending upwards in price where the rate of that increase is *also*
higher than the rate of increase in income over corresponding time. Those cases would
represent inflation to me.

I'm not saying that cannot or does not exist, but I am saying I don't believe it is common
or widespread beyond a few specific items (or item categories - purples for instance).


Regards,
4

-QR-

I agree with the others that they improve noticeably by respec time.

That said, since you know you'll have a mandatory respec, my approach with mine
(early) was to load up on attacks and drop an end rdx in them.

One thing I learned by playing Blasters and Kheldians is that dead mobs leave you
alone.

More attacks, more damage and a little common sense about aggro management
makes widow survival a lot less problematic imho. My biggest issue was that they're
endurance hogs (which leads to the slotting mentioned above) until stamina.

Survival wasn't as much of an issue.


Regards,
4

[ QUOTE ]
So my questions:
1) Do you think that we have, truly, inflation? Most of the "middle class valuables" (Detonation Acc/Dam,
to pull an example out of the air) are about the same price they were a month after issue 9 hit.
Those may be priced at "round up to a nickel" levels, however. Recently I've seen people rounding
up to the nearest 100K for common IO's, and lots of them.

2) Do you think that inflation [should it exist] is a problem?

3) What tools are there for fighting inflation of this sort?

My answers are 1) Yes, and 2) Maybe.

[/ QUOTE ]

I replied earlier, and maybe I'm just a little dense this morning, but I'm still confused here.

Quoting the original questions, the first one asks if the current situation is "inflation".

I'm using definitions #2 &amp; #3 from this link - what definitions are you folks using?

Standard inspirations, along with TO's/DO's/SO's and IO recipes (from the crafting table),
are all flat in terms of pricing. Many market sets/IO's/salvage are also (roughly) flat.

Over the same period, with level smoothing, easier mobs, more powerful enhancements,
the market, and AE tickets, the rate of earnings has actually increased.

Clearly, this is not "inflation" according to the listed definition. Even at best, only some
market-specific items are increasing, and only if that increase is a permanent trend and
it exceeds the present earning rates can we consider those specific items to be inflated.

What we have (overall) is an influence Surplus - Average per capita, the player base is
richer now than it has ever been. They're not carting wheelbarrows of cash to buy a SO -
it costs the same as it did years ago. They just have wheelbarrows of cash on hand
now to buy whatever they want.

As stated earlier, I have no issue with inf sinks if they're a creative and interesting part
of the game, but I don't see them as a "solution" for a problem.

So, the question I'm asking is:

What is problematic about a money surplus?


Regards,
4

[ QUOTE ]
As i don't play or bother with all the market games, i DID craft a couple level 20 commons yesterday and sold them for 200k, today they are selling for 12k. LMAO. Stupid market.

[/ QUOTE ]

At which point you should probably buy more of them and relist them at 200K...

Or,

You can give some newbie in Atlas or Mercy the ~330K excess profits from bilking the casual
gamers lest ye be judged Ebil.

Or,

You can make another post on how difficult and time consuming it is making influence
using the market...


Based on your history, I've placed my personal bet on which way you'll go (purely
for the amusement value, of course)...


4

I typed my usual extremely verbose response in the other thread

tl/dr version...

1&gt; I don't think we have "inflation" here... Game challenges are still balanced to SO's,
and those (and even common IO recipes) are flat priced (at stores and crafting tables).

Buying power (imho) is higher than it's ever been, which to me, is the opposite of inflation...
I think there is a far larger segment of the population that has more inf than they can
spend than ever before.

2&gt; I don't see that as problematic per se. The Devs might if they don't want an influence
surplus in the game and/or if they feel it is too easy for players to equip their toons.

I have no idea about their take on it, but as a player, I *like* not having to worry if my
toons can afford the enhancements they want.

3&gt; Given my feeling on #2, I don't think we *need* more inf sinks. However, I'd have no
problem whatsoever with them if: A&gt; They creatively motivate me into *wanting* to
spend my influence. B&gt; If they don't impair the ablility to equip my characters to reasonable
levels (depending on the definition of "reasonable")


Regards,
4

[ QUOTE ]
... I've been attempting to think about this and I think we are creating influence
considerably faster than we're burning it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure.

We have been since the game went live minute one. In the very early days, apart from
enhancements, there was nothing to spend it on, and I think the breakeven P/L point
was somewhere in the early L30's.

A few questions that quickly spring to mind:

1&gt; Is the rise in inf supply accelerating?
2&gt; Is this actually "inflation" per se?
3&gt; If #2 is true, is this "inflation" problematic in the context of this game?

I've not read your other post (yet), but my off-the-cuff thoughts are these (in
Market Post #2 intent):

Looking at question number 2 first...

I think of inflation as the situation where prices are rising faster than the income supply
leading to reduced buying power.

I don't think that's the case here. Standard items (T/D/SO's, inspirations, costumes
etc.) are flat priced - to the best of my knowledge they've never been raised since they
were introduced so there's no loss of buying power on that front.

Further (at least in the several months since I've been back), there are a lot of items
that have tended to stay relatively flat (many common IO's for instance) barring 2X wkends,
major issue releases, significant market changes (no tf random drops / merits) that
have clear, but explainable, market impacts. I don't see this as "inflation".

There is no doubt in my mind that there *is* more inf in the game than any other prior time.

That would be true even without the market. In fact, just a simple (and extremely conservative)
napkin calculation using 100,000 subscriber base, playing 1 hour per day, with an earning
rate of say .5M / hr (1/2 of a casual L50) would generate 1.5 Trillion influence per month
for 5 years... That's 90 Trillion through very casual gameplay (less expenditures)even if
there isn't a market at all.

I don't know if it's accelerating though. The market basically just spreads that around
through the various servers, and along with sinking inf from fees, it doesn't generate
*new* money, but simply exchanges it with other players.

So, you've still got 1.5T being generated each month, flat fees for everything but the market
shinies, so increasing wealth seems unavoidable and increasing prices for coveted IO's seem
likely too under these circumstances...

So my gut feel is that I'd agree that income rate is probably much higher than expenditure
rate by a distinct margin (if my own toons are any additional indicator).

So, is it problematic? Maybe. Maybe not. I don't think buying power is in any way less
than it was earlier, and if we're making more than we spend (as I think we are from
question #1), our buying power is actually increasing, so until the hard inf cap comes
into play (stopping income for that toon), I'm not sure it's a problem from a player perspective.
Sure, the best things probably cost more, but there's more ways to gain inf now so it's actually
easier for players imho.

It may well be problematic from the Dev's perspective, but I'm not sure about that,
especially this far along in the game's life cycle. If they see it as an issue, then I'd definitely
expect more inf sinks (in whatever form) to come along...

I guess we'll see....


Regards,
4