FourSpeed

/unsigned.




There seems to be a lot of mish-mashed points in this thread...

To me, I'll itemize some things I think are (or should be) fairly self evident.

* PvP is always more challenging than PvE, and one reason it is often used
as "end-game" content. Even idiotic players consistently outperform PvE AI.

In CoX, a lot of players simply don't get that - the PvE game is designed
for anyone on any AT to solo, and for teams to run roughshod over the AI.
PvE Players spend 100's or 1000's of hours doing that, and when their PvE
toon of ultimate awesomeness gets whacked in 5 seconds and 2-4 hits,
it's a shock of astounding proportion. Many refuse to acknowledge or
adjust to that ... That has been true throughout PvP (both 1.0 & 2.0).

I'm not sure *why* that seems to be the case with a lot of our playerbase,
but I observe this simple fact, consistently, nearly every time I go into a
PvP zone.

* Many CoX players team, and many solo - both should be possible in PvP
(which, they currently are) with reasonable expectations of effectiveness.

To me, that point is one of the keys for me. Sure, it's an MMO, but that is
simply a business choice they made for business reasons. Were it a
standalone game, many of us would have been pleased with it that way
too. The fact that players can play it either way is a *strength* that I
would not want to change in PvP. Obviously, soloing in PvP has it's risks,
but I'm ok with that part.

I would like PvP content suitable to both approaches, of which zone is
just one example.

* CoH (and later CoV) simply wasn't designed for PvP, and to that end,
the game engine IS problematic. Many, many powers are binary (they do
nothing, or they kill you) -- Mezzes, particularily were bad that way, and
while skilled teams could offset those things to varying degrees, solo players,
were severely subjected to Rock, Paper, Scissors effects, moreso, I think
than other games having PvP. That seems to add to the first point as a
player disincentive for PvP.

I think this area is what PvP 2.0 was hoping to fix, or ease somewhat - so
it would be harder to be mez proof, or chain held, or unhittable, etc.

Unfortunately, it appears to me that they threw out the baby with the
bath water. Worse yet, they didn't actually fix the problem with the
changes.

* I don't know the devs thinking, but by every single imaginable measure,
PvP 2.0 can only be categorized as an unmitigated disaster.

The pre-existing PvP community was largely driven off, the players who
actually do PvP now are substantially fewer (and non-existent in some
zones on many servers), the barriers for entry level PvP are higher than
they ever were (including builds, re-learning powersets), and there are
just as many non-viable AT's and builds (if not more so) than PvP 1.0.

Additionally, there have been few meaningful changes or communications
from the devs regarding PvP since PvP 2.0 was implemented - I cannot
think of any metric that could rate PvP 2.0 as anything other than
supreme fail.

* Players will gain and use anything to achieve their goals in terms of
what their toons can do.

This is true in PvP certainly, but no less so in PvE with PL'ing, AE exploits,
marketeering, or even Base Building. This is simple human nature. If you
put powerful items in game, or sufficiently valued rewards in game - players
will get them, and use them - Most times, that is a good thing - gamers as
a class are overachievers (in the game at least). In PvP, that can be
(and arguably has been) a problematic balancing nightmare...

* Fault - does it really matter? If hollywood produces a movie that flops,
is it the audience's fault? If GM produces a PoS car, is it the driver's fault?
If a software house produces an MMO that tanks (TR, Auto Assault,
Hellgate London - to name a few), is that the player's fault?

Last I checked, I'm a consumer trying/wanting to enjoy a product - I'm
neither the designer or the creator of it. I'm simply an end-user. If that
product fails to meet reasonable expectations, I guess I simply don't see
how that is my fault.

Frankly, it falls to the manufacturer to either fix it, drop it, or ignore it...

In two of those cases, it's a concession that the product isn't well suited
to it's audience (for whatever reasons), and likely unprofitable, as a result.

While I think the overall product (CoX) is very good, it seems clear that
the PvP 2.0 product is disappointing, and, so far as we can tell, the
manufacturer's current take is to ignore it, going forward.

To me, it appears to be written off as a dead-end in the game presently.

As a player, I'm fairly active in PvP (not the hardcore tier, but not the once
a month type either) and have been since CoV came out (I didn't bother
with the I-3 Arena).

I agree with Arcana's point that we'd like a PvP product that is reasonably
fair, and popular enough to provide us with motivated players to compete
with and against.

Whether that is actually do-able in the context of the overall game, or if
the current folks are willing to bother with it at all remains to be seen.

Personally, if I were a designer, given this game's engine and approach, I'd
have used Guild Wars' idea for PvP with these basic features.

* make a subset of the base ATs that can only be used for PvP content

* make these PvP toons start at L50 automatically.

* make them use a subset of powers and slots (to help mitigate and
manage the balance headache)

* I'd make the powers that are allowed be as close to the PvE powers
as possible (subject to any balance constraints)

* make them slottable (for free) with Common IO's (ie. like Build #2 on a
L50 - kit it out how you want, and then save the toon).

* make PvPIOs bind on pickup - so it's non-tradeable junk if you don't
need it, and good if you can use it... I'd raise the drop rate to something
like rare salvage, so if you PvP for a few months, you have reasonable
odds of getting some useful PvP IO's.

* I'd make PvPIOs only available in PvP, and only for PvP toons.

* I'd add a bunch more PvP content like tfs & missions against other
player teams, etc.

* I'd forget entirely anything that was even attempted in PvP 2.0
(ok, I just couldn't resist - it really is that bad imho)


In the end, I don't know if that would be any better or more popular or
not, but I doubt it would be much worse than what we currently have
now.

The simple concession I'd make, is that PvP cannot be like PvE in many
respects, for numerous reasons, but I'd like to get as much of the feel of
the PvE experience of fast paced, high mobility, chaotic combat as close
as possible while minimizing the sheer number of combinations that need
to be balanced.

In the meantime, as a PvP'er, I'll occasionally tolerate what we have, and
hope that someday they'll actually provide a product that we'd prefer.

I simply don't expect that occur during the life-cycle of this game anymore.

That's the state of PvP in my mind.


Regards,
4

The hand's down fastest way to make inf is through the market - pure and
simple.

The even better news is that you can do that and *still* do other things like
farming, tfs, what-have-you.

The "farming" that I'm familiar with typically involves an AE map, or one of
several Ouroboros Maps, or even a mission you saved along the way.

Ideally, it would be a mission that you can run at higher difficulty settings
safely (anywhere from 0/4 to +4/8) on the particular toon you're running.

That nets you quite a bit of cash, along with chances for nice drops (or
large numbers of tix if it's AE) each time you run it.

That's pretty lucrative (if gindingly repetitive) over time. It's not as fast
as high-level marketing, but if you're market averse, it can be effective.


Regards,
4

A-Merit conversion...

4

In a way, I agree - which is primarily the reason I side with the idea of
making 20M or so via easy and minimal marketeering techniques as a far
more effective approach than having a gimped build throughout much of
it's career.

My interest in this thread is that I haven't *proved* that you'll have a
gimped build if you rely solely on drops, but I believe it's the likeliest
result, and I'm interested to see what the OP's experience actually was...

Alas, I'd guess (given the age of the thread) that the OP is no longer in-game,
or the toon/project was scrapped. Pity - it would be a useful data point.


Regards,
4

I'm not sacrificing acc or dmg - I'm 95% softcapped acc against anything
I run into in PvE and against most players in PvP (global acc buffs are
a Good Thing). Dmg is above 95% and well into ED reduction, so I'm not
losing anything meaningful there either.

I agree completely with the Bonuses part, which is also why I didn't go with
a 3rd HO. That allows me to get the extra Health Bonus from Glad Strike
that I wouldn't have otherwise.

You have a good point about Placate and I have mine 3 slotted with Rch,
so I do find that I get to use a 3rd AS occasionally, but I think the main
benefit isn't so much the 3rd shot as it is having it up 2X for every group I
deal with...

Is the 5 seconds huge? Nope. Useful? In my opinion, yes... YMMV


Regards,
4

(Edit) PS> I meant to add that if I were going to change
anything with my current slotting of AS it would probably
be removing HO's in favor of Hecatombs. I'd want to look
at that more closely in Mid's, but there are some nice
bonuses there - provided it doesn't reduce core acc/dmg

I've never done an LRSF ever. I'm a 90%+ solo player.

I do know how to use the market to fund and equip my characters, and with
a little bit of knowledge and effort, it's a lot less difficult than most people
seem to think.


Regards,
4

Yep. That's pretty much how it works with mid-level frankenslotting.

Typically, for my toons, I usually start putting in bids for those things when
I turn L15 (using about half of my slots). I'm mostly a solo player so I probably
level my toons slower than most, so that timing typically works well enough.

That said, a couple thoughts I'll add.

While I typically put out bargain low ball bids for those items, I also don't
worry too much about the buy it nao prices for the odd item or two if need be.

This is mostly, because even those prices are usually cheaper than the L50
price, and once bought in the mid levels, you don't have to worry about it
again. Overspending a little bit in this range is nbd comparatively.

The other thing is that my toons typically look for L28 IOs (for exemp to
L25), but I'm ok with an L26 - L30 because the difference is usually only
a few tenths of a percent which makes little noticeable, practical difference
in the context of a fully slotted power.


Regards,
4

As for the OP's post, I've no comment - there's nothing there imho worth bothering with...

As for your comment seebs, it's < 1.5M from scratch to equip a character
with traditional TO/DO/SOs including the L25s (bought at L22), and 18M
total to L50, per my "What's it Cost" thread (now idling on page 3 these days).

I'll add what I've always said regarding inflation - there is NONE in this
segment - in fact, buying power is at an all time high. The prices for
traditional shinies have not changed by a single inf since I-1 in 2004 while
income has risen by orders of magnitude during that same timeframe.

I have a hard time feeling at all sympathetic for a player that can't make
1.5M by L22... Seriously, a handful of vendored recipes or AE tickets gets
this handled in an hour or less.

One decent drop gets the 18M handled as well...

If that is too difficult for a player to figure out, and further, they're too
impatient, lazy, or proud to ask a simple question, or read a guide, TFB.

As folks know, I considered writing a guide based on that "Cost" post, but
in the end, I simply can't see a need for it that other guides haven't made
easy already.

Incompetent players should not constitute a dev problem.

Now, where there IS inflation is premium IO's.

Medium sets up and disappeared for awhile, and that *was* due to dev
changes - some of which have been mitigated in recent releases.

High-end sets are expensive, but also volatile for the most part. There are
bargains on these to be had every day (I know this, because I flip some on
most days).

Still, as I mentioned, merits mitigate the bulk of it, and even simple marketing
skills covers the rest. Additionally, supply in several areas is making a nice
comeback with all the L50's working the Incarnate Trail.

The only actual "problem" I'm seeing is with whiny, self-indulgent players
whose sense of entitlement far exceeds their intelligence and effort level.

That's *my* rant... (not at you, mind you, but at the players who feel the
game or market is busted because they can't be bothered to get off their
duff, and buy a clue first, and then shinies later)...


Regards,
4