Folonius

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Your average player probably doesn't care too much if he can't use the burning forest map in AE anymore, but if you cut his experience, he's going to notice, and he's going to be pissed...

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I guess I'm not "average", since I very nearly drove down to Paragon Studios in person to [censored] at them over this one. Seriously, if they pull that [censored] again people will quit writing stories. After a point it becomes just not worth the hassle to rewrite every patch.

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Defendable objects will be getting a nerf too ... It's unfortunate since I really enjoy fighting 100+ enemies at once. It makes my toons feel super.

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I have been getting a lot of invites to AE teams, while I don't mind the missions, farming is, to me at least, very boring. Sure you get a lot of XP, but where is the fun in doing the same mission over and over and over? Just my opinion, hope no one blasts me too bad

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Carnage (if it's a good map), and rewards is fun for me. I've ran maps like this befure where half the team quits because they keep dying. I've also ran the same maps where the team is actually organized, and we plow through 6 or 7 ambushes at a time.

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I doubt we'll ever get to see who's wrong or right by seeing purple drop rates change.

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Like when Merits were created and players spent less money on Task Force and Trial Recipes? What happened to the price of other items (Purples and Salvage)?

Like when Mission Architect was created and players produced more defeat recipes like Knockback IOs? What happened to other prices like Purples?

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I've learned to accept what Smurphy says about the eco of Co* because whatever he predicts usually happens

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Soon, my main will be 50. (Sig is a bit iout of date). And I'd like to use him to raise inf for a SoA.

While farming funds and such for my SoA, I'd like to kill 2-birds with one stone by also having a decent chance for a purple drop here and there.

Are there any ideal reccomendations for a soloer to maximize chance to get purple drops?

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Run the demon map given by harvey, get 5 fillers so it will be spawned for 6, run it solo, and do it about 12 times. You should get one drop. Yeah it's that low of a drop rate. You'd be better off finding a niche to gain influence, and buy them off the market. It'll be quicker.

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is this another one of those threads where the op isn't being agreed with so he is going to totaly bypass any questions and just throw out numbers to try to make himself look smarter even though he is doing the exact opposite? if so i'm going to grab a big ol' bowl of popcorn and extra large soda and sit back and watch.

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Basically, this is the TL;DR of what's been said.

Me: There's a relation between tiers in primary and secondary
Umbral: No it's a correlation
Me: No it's a relation
Umbral: No a correlation
Me: No it's a relation
Umbral: No a correlation
Me: No it's a relation
...
...
...

So I'm giving up trying to convince him, cause it will never happen.

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Do you even know what balance is?


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Yes, and despite what you might think, it doesn't involve holding a pole while walking on a beam.

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You're constant inability to actually figure out what a power does is amusing.


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Your inability to grasp the simple concept of balance is amusing to me.

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Looking at how little you actually know about the powers, I'm amazed that you even think you're capable of determining whether powers are balanced.


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Funny, I said the same thing about you. Your grasping at straws trying to disprove that force bolt and power push are broken, yet you can't seem to be able to ... Just FYI, I'm done reading the garbage your saying. I'm just gonna pick out the sections where your trying to turn this into a flame now.

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Folonius, enjoy your thread. Right now, it's been explained enough times by enough people that anything further is a waste of my time.

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uh huh .... sure ...

*Continues to wait for a counter example*

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Fiery Embrace from Fiery Aura and any Scrapper Build Up. Fiery Embrace is a tier 8. Build up is a tier 4. Fiery Embrace is actually weaker.


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Fiery Embrace has 25% extra damage to fire, and double the duration of the Scrappers buildup. While maybe I'd make this tier 7, overall, it's still not that bad simply because the duration is double that of build up (20 seconds instead of 10)

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Spine Burst from Spines and Burn from Fiery Aura. Spine Burst is tier 3 and Burn is tier 7.


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These do completly different things. Spine Burst is an AoE Immob Attack that immobs targets for 12 seconds with a mag of less than 1. Prevents jumping, and flying for 10 seconds.

Burn does deal some damage, but is primarily a resist immob effect that lasts for a minute and 40 seconds. How could you even try to compare these two?

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Quick Recovery from Regen and Dark Consumption from Dark Melee. QR is tier 3 and Dark Consumption is tier 7.


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Quick Recovery is like stamina, and is always active. Dark Consumption is an attack that deals damage and recovers endurance. These aren't even similar either.

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Divine Avalanche from Katana and Elude from Super Reflexes. DA is tier 5 and Elude is tier 9.


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Divine Avalanche is an attack that only offers 15% defense for 10 seconds... Elude is god mode.

Clearly, you have lost your mind, or your just being stupid on purpose in using these as examples. Congratz on wasting your time looking for these.

Edit: And you've also proven without a doubt with this post you haven't a clue about how these different powers are balanced. Good thing that's not a P.E.R.C. requirement though.

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There is a correlation between potency and tier


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Change correlation to relation, and I'll agree with you.

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Think of it this way: ice cream sales and murder rates show a very strong statistical correlation. When ice cream sales are up, murder rates are also up. Does that mean they're related? No.


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Which makes this arguement irrelevant. There is a relation between primary and secondary powers in regards to their tiers. Show me one other example where there are two powers that do virtually the same thing, and are seperated by 4 tiers between a primary and a secondary, and I will stand corrected.

Every other powers which are similar I've listed earlier are balanced between primary and secondary. I'm sure I could find more if I wanted to.

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Power complexity is only tangentially related to power potency and effectiveness unless you interpret complexity as potency, as you seem to be


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Sort of. I'm interpretting complexity to be similar to potency. The less complex a power is, the less potent it is, but I admit that will not always be the case.

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Complexity has nothing to do with how strong a power is


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Disagree with this.

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No one would get or use early powers because they wouldn't be effective compared to the later ones


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That is impossible to accomplish. You are forced to take powers early, and the only other choices of powers at mid level would be from the power pools. They aren't always optimal for a build you are trying to create.

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And yet you purposefully use the basic/complex and weak/strong comparisons indiscriminately.


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I some cases, basic == weak, and complex == stong. That's why I agree with using basic and complex as it does more reflect how powers work.

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Inertial Reduction could easily be considered to be more complex than Ice Slick. Ice Slick is a PbAoE knockdown. It provides a basic function (control) to the AT (controller). Inertial Reduction is a PbAoE +jump. It provides a non-combat benefit. Non-combat benefits are more complex than combat benefits, especially when you consider that everything in game has to be examined from a combat perspective. How to gain benefit from Inertial Reduction while in combat is much more complicated than how to gain benefit from Ice Slick.


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And yet Ice Slick is more powerful than Inertial Reduction. I was using this as a counter example in showing that basic == weak and complex == strong doesn't always hold up, which is why I said in some cases it's true.

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Are you trying to make yourself seem like some game balance messiah by bringing up completely pointless comparisons and claiming that everyone else is oblivious to it?


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No, I'm not a messiah, but thanks for thinking that.


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Your reading comprehension skills must be incredibly lacking if you think that's what I was saying. If you need a quick primer on "How to Read Intent", here's a sample:

If someone questions you asking whether you are attempting to make yourself seem exceedingly grand, the person does not actually believe what you're trying to do. They're seeing through it.


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*cough* Sarcasm *cough*

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The damage is not "almost the same". The damage is twice as much.


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7 and 14 are trivial.

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You're also ignoring the primary/secondary disparity issue. If a power in a secondary were just as potent as that of a power that same AT's primary, that would be completely broken, not to mention that it ignores the fact that balance is done for a power set as a whole not as a series of independent powers.


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I disagree with this, and invite you to show me another example where two similar powers are a 4 tier spread. As I've stated, all sets are balanced between primary and secondary that I have found. I may be wrong, but no counter-example has thus far been presented.

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Your inability to actually accept that powers from a primary and powers from a secondary shouldn't actually be equal is incredibly exasperating.


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Show me another imbalance between a primary and a secondary. I have plenty of examples of similarities. All I'm saying is that for all possible primaries and secondaries, there is a less than or equal to a 3 tier spread on similar powers except for FF and NRG Defenders. There is no reason there should be a 4 tier spread between these two powers. Unless you are arguing that by chance, all other primaries and secondaries became balanced by chance.

TPAM has DD's .... she told me so!

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OMG! Let me lick your ear!


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Kinky!

Castle Sharted.

Castle knows, but isn't gonna tell you.

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weave around the right mime .. he is my friend


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*hits the gas and runs over the right mime*

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1) I didn't say they're not related.
2) I said that what tier a power is has no effect on how strong the power is.
3) A power will not be made any stronger or weaker depending on what tier the power is.
4) If a power is strong is is more likely to be a later tier power, but there is no example anywhere in game of a power being weakened just because it is a lower tier or higher tier power.


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1 contradicts your entire argument. You didn't say they're not related, but then you go on to argue that they aren't related.

2 contradicts 4 and 1, 3 contradicts 4 and 1, and 4 contradicts 1, 2, and 3.

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People have been pointing it out to you this entire time and you're either too ignorant, oblivious, or just plain stubborn to realize it.

5) Castle, who is the ultimate authority on the game numbers, has refuted this idea of yours as posited by other people in the past.
6) He specifically stated that the strength of a power has nothing to do with when you get it.
6a) Basic powers come first. More complex ones come later.
That's how it goes. 9 powers are designed for a set and then placed in their various tiers. The powers are made stronger or weaker depending on where they are made available.


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5 contradicts 4, 1, and 6a.
6 contradicts 4, 1, and 6a.

A special note on 6a. You used the words Basic and Complex. These are two very good descriptors for the different powers. They can also be the difference between a strong power and a weak power in many (not all) instances. Fire imps is better than speed boost IMO, and is more complex. MoG is more complex than Divine Avalanche, and is better IMO. But it doesn't work in all cases, because saying Inertial Reduction is more complex than Ice Slick isn't correct. (I was comparing primaries and secondaries on a DB/Regen, Fire/Kin, and an Ice/Kin)

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Are you trying to make yourself seem like some game balance messiah by bringing up completely pointless comparisons and claiming that everyone else is oblivious to it?


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No, I'm not a messiah, but thanks for thinking that. What I'm saying is your narrow minded in not thinking that there is already a balance between primaries and secondaries in place. The balance between force bolt and power push is skewed IMO. The damage is almost the same, the recharge is slower on the tier 7 power, and has less knockback.

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Let's just give everyone the option to start their toons off at level 50 on test server with all the ultra-rare recipes on hand!


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Fixed the quote so I would say /signed. It's been awhile since I've been on the test server, have they done this yet?

Anyways, on the live servers, definitely not.

*Throws on some pepper*

Once upon a Positron there was a bug. It's purple Mankey liked saving walruses deaths. Until a green shoe fell off a pretty cloud of root beer fluff cleaving off seven little toes while chewing Bubblegum. After seeing the drunk Pinnacle-ite puke chunky bits of magnets, it stumbled into a garbage carafe. Feeling pretty depressed, it died a Lonely death.

Elsewhere, there were some hungry hippos dancing on me for every time one slurps from the fountain of Wayne. In the early dawn, sirens wailed under a pale little moon made of nothing. People thought they saw Ghost Widow munching on Doritos with Valerie. But it wasn't Doritos, it was a magical corncob that sexy Jay designed with care.

This time, she wanted 12 umpa-loompas and 5 slimy Pterodactyls with Listerine. Suddenly the wizard Spanksalot grumbled with great big annoyance. Dirty scoundrels sacked small vermin left by evil midgets wearing pink Fedoras and speedos. However, Elvis wasn't having cheesecake; he stopped to adjust Stacy's corset that had melted rubber down its frog but sadly, he died.

Cheney shot the lawyer in the buttocks with spitballs made of recycled garbage with asparagus. After blowing the mayor, he loaded up 12 hundred bucks obtained illegally so he licked garbage which

*Dumps something that looks like gravy on Healix*

Once upon a Positron there was a bug. It's purple Mankey liked saving walruses deaths. Until a green shoe fell off a pretty cloud of root beer fluff cleaving off seven little toes while chewing Bubblegum. After seeing the drunk Pinnacle-ite puke chunky bits of magnets, it stumbled into a garbage carafe. Feeling pretty depressed, it died a Lonely death.

Elsewhere, there were some hungry hippos dancing on me for every time one slurps from the fountain of Wayne. In the early dawn, sirens wailed under a pale little moon made of nothing. People thought they saw Ghost Widow munching on Doritos with Valerie. But it wasn't Doritos, it was a magical corncob that sexy Jay designed with care.

This time, she wanted 12 umpa-loompas and 5 slimy Pterodactyls with Listerine. Suddenly the wizard Spanksalot grumbled with great big annoyance. Dirty scoundrels sacked small vermin left by evil midgets wearing pink Fedoras and speedos. However, Elvis wasn't having cheesecake; he stopped to adjust Stacy's corset that had melted rubber down its frog but sadly, he died.

Cheney shot the lawyer in the buttocks with spitballs made of recycled garbage with asparagus. After blowing the mayor, he loaded up 12 hundred bucks obtained illegally so he licked

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That's not a strawman. A strawman is where I argue against something not related to the subject. [u]You are the one who said the in SOME CASES KB is as good as a hold.[u] Again, SOME CASES are the key words here.

What those two questions make obvious, is that a KB is in SOME CASES as good as a stun. But a Stun IN ALL CASES is as good as KB.


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You're either confused or dishonest. I NEVER said that. What I said was...

EvilGeko wrote:
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Yes, I think that in some cases a KB is as good as a stun. [u]It's not as good as a hold[u], but Ice and Electric are missing one or more tricks the other blaster sets get. (in Ice's case a targeted AoE, in Elec a strong ST blast.)


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I'm not going to bother to respond to the rest because you're just making stuff up as you go along.

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My bad, I meant stun where i said hold.

Edit: It's not making stuff up, and obviously, saying that a stun is as good as KB in all situations is opinion. It is, however, much more useful.

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I didn't say they're not related. I said that what tier a power is has no effect on how strong the power is. A power will not be made any stronger or weaker depending on what tier the power is. If a power is strong is is more likely to be a later tier power, but there is no example anywhere in game of a power being weakened just because it is a lower tier or higher tier power.


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Huh? I think you contradicted yourself like 5 or 6 times in that paragraph.

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People have been pointing it out to you this entire time and you're either too ignorant, oblivious, or just plain stubborn to realize it. Castle, who is the ultimate authority on the game numbers, has refuted this idea of yours as posited by other people in the past. He specifically stated that the strength of a power has nothing to do with when you get it. Basic powers come first. More complex ones come later. That's how it goes. 9 powers are designed for a set and then placed in their various tiers. The powers are made stronger or weaker depending on where they are made available.


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And you continue to contradict yourself.

The main problem I see going on here is people are thinking 2 dimensionally. I agree balance needs to be spread between each primary for each set, and each secondary to each set, but IMO 3 dimension thinking is needed to spread balance between a specific primary when matched up to a specific secondary. From what I've seen in the last several years playing various toons(or at least what sticks out the most) is force bolt and power push. I have yet to play every combination, so maybe I'm wrong, and there's others, but FF/NRG toon is the first I've come across.

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Yes, I think that in some cases a KB is as good as a stun.


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I knew that is what you would say .... So now let me ask you two more questions ....

1) for all situations, the effectiveness of Holds can be substitued for the effectiveness of knockbacks (true/false)

2) for all situations, the effectiveness of knockbacks can be substitued for the effectiveness of holds (true/false)

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This is a textbook strawman. I said in my post that holds are superior to KBs in most cases. Now you're asking me to respond to something I didn't say. What I said, and you can read it because you quoted it, is that IN SOME CASES, a KB is as good as a STUN.


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That's not a strawman. A strawman is where I argue against something not related to the subject. You are the one who said the in SOME CASES KB is as good as a stun (edited). Again, SOME CASES are the key words here.

What those two questions make obvious, is that a KB is in SOME CASES as good as a stun. But a Stun IN ALL CASES is as good as KB.

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Tier is irrelevant. For example, Quick Recovery is a Tier 3 power for Regen, but a Tier 6 power for Willpower.


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THAT is a classic strawman. I'm comparing Primaries and Secondaries. Show me a toon that can be a Regen/Willpower.

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Blaster:
Archery: Stunning Shot -> Energy Manipulation: Stun
Stunning Shot is a ranged, so it's tier 8, Stun is melee and forces a blaster in close, so it's tier 6. Both do the same thing, and it's balanced.


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Not quite. Stunning shot has a native accuracy of 1.155 native accuracy, which is SIGNIFICANT in hitting more stuff, and also has SERIOUS range. Stun may have the same duration, but it it is melee ranged and nowhere near as safe. What's more, Stun is part of Energy Manipulations primary strength - Disorient effects. Together with Total Focus, you can stun a boss for a LONG time.


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Not Quite? Does that mean you don't think it's balanced?

stun is tier 6 and a melee attack, stunning shot is ranged and is tier 8. Clearly, that is balanced.