Fireheart
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Feral Kitty is the new 'Gallagher'? Instead of a Sledge-a-matic, she asks "Will it Shred?"
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Fireheart -
There have been no significant changes to Fire, lately. This post, and the guide by Grey Pilgrim represent the current state of the art.
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Fireheart -
Tanker takes more damage and has better AoE, Scrapper does more damage and has better single-target.
Tanker takes a bit longer to dish out the damage, but he can stand it longer. Scrapper dishes the damage faster, which is good, because he can't stand it for as long.
Be Well!
Fireheart -
Quote:Okay, thanks for reposting this, so we all can get some clarity.Originally Posted by Fusion_7
1. For soloing purposes what build or builds would allow for the best AoE powers to do "more" damage to groups of foes versus "key mashing" on one foe at a time?
2. Based on my prior toons, my Blaster which i love because of the damage she does and being my first and my favorite toon, what tank build/builds will allow for the most damage and when I say damage, I mean knock-out lights out "no wakie" "no stunnie" of foes damage? This might be a signature power that is pretty must the best in tank land as a Nova would be for a Blaster.
3. Speed. When I think of tanks, I think of a tree stump just standing there taking the heat for the team. When solo, then the tree stump gets pummeled to death being they are not doing enough damage or not enough AoE powers to take more foes out. Granted, tanks are designed to be the anchors in "team" missions and to draw aggro away from the squishies, but when soloing, then this is where I am having issues. So, maybe having more speed to react better in situations that may require a quick exit?
In a nutshell, I am looking for:
Speed
More AoE Powers
Tank build that has the best knock-out power, be it AoE or Melee (Signature Power like Nova to Blasters)
More defense but will sacrifice defense for more AoE damages
Do you guys think I would be better off trying to build a Scrapper instead...
1. There is no Tanker capable of the sort of 'boom, it's dead' stuff that a Blaster can do. The nearest you can get are Shield Charge and Lightning Rod - which turn You, the Tanker, into a nuke and can Usually 1+2-shot a Crowd of minions, while seriously upsetting lieutenants and bosses. The next closest thing is Energy Transfer, which is a melee-range, single-target nuke.
Solo Tankers succeed by grinding up the enemy into little pieces - somewhat slowly, which means you are going to have to push a bunch of buttons. If you're primarily interested in Soloing, then you can build your tanker more like a 'Heavy Scrapper' and focus on your Secondary, at first. More attacks for you to 'button mash' your way through.
If you Must push buttons as a Tanker (and you do) then the best thing to do is develop a good attack-chain, so at least you're 'dancing' the buttons, rather than ham-handedly 'mashing' them. Dual Blades practically has the attack-chain built in, but other powersets have them, too, you just need to discover them.
2. As I said before, no Tanker can match a Blaster's performance in the 'everything dies now' category. The secondary effects built into Most Tanker attacks are designed to take enemies out of the fight, temporarily, until the Tanker can get around to smashing them flat. Knock-back/down and Stuns are primary examples of this, but also the Slows in Ice and -To-Hit in Dark mitigate the effectiveness of enemies that have been struck. One Tanker attack-set has No extra effects - Firey Melee... or rather, the 'secondary effect' of Firey Melee is a DoT of extra damage.
For 'knock their lights out', your best bets are Battle Axe, War Mace, and Super Strength, but Energy Melee also gets two huge 'nuke powers' as tier 8 & 9.
3. Speed... Only Stone Armor gets a speed debuff. Electric Armor gets a 20% speed Buff. 'Standing there, like a tree stump' is a playstyle issue and not a feature of the Tanker AT itself.
I'd invite you out to duo with one of my Tankers, to give you an idea of how a Tanker who Moves can operate, but I think the best thing would be for you to actually DO it yourself. A Tanker 'dances' with crowds of mobs, pulling more of them into his aura, lining up melee-cone attacks, smacking that one mob who thinks he should go fight the Defender on the back of the head, so he focuses on the Tanker instead. That crowd of baddies surrounding the Tanker are in his aura, either making the Tanker Stronger, or slowly dying. A Tanker on top of his game is like a Border Collie, herding and pulling enemies into lumps to be exploited, guarding against 'leakers', and otherwise defending his team - even when solo.
....
So, your nutshell:
Speed - A Tanker does not have to stand still, however, a Tanker is not going to defeat his enemies (very) quickly.
AoEs - Axe, Dual Blades, and Mace have 3 AoEs, Fire and Stone have 4. Of the Primaries, Invulnerability, Shield Defense, and Willpower have PBAoE toggles that Buff the Tanker and Debuff enemies, the others have PBAoE toggles that Damage enemies and usually do some debuff. Fiery Aura has an extra PBAoE attack, and Shield Defense has Shield Charge, which is a targeted AoE mini-nuke.
Signature Power like Nova to Blasters - All Tanker attack-powersets have 'signature powers', which do (relatively) massive damage. So do the Primary defensive-powersets, with most Primary 'signature powers' being some form of 'god mode', or a self-rez, and Shield Defense has Shield Charge.
....
In the end, if Doing Damage is more significant to you than Surviving Damage, then perhaps you really Should play a Scrapper, instead. If you want to explode in a frenzy of death, rather than taking the time to do a proper job on each enemy, then perhaps you should be a Scrapper. However, if you want to stand in the middle of the battle and Laugh at the puny villainous 'mortals', then pound each one into a pancake, then a Tanker may be right for you.
Be Well!
Fireheart
PS: Another problem you may face is that most Tankers don't start to really Shine, until they can slot with SOs, at 22. Stamina is also a critical power (unless you have Willpower), although Fire and Electric can mitigate this. So, if you can manage to Suffer through the first 20-some levels, then you finally earn the reward of awesomeness that comes from being a Tanker. -
When will we get to see Part III, MM?
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Fireheart -
Quote:Yes, yes! Feel your anger! Give in to the dark side of the Kawai. Join Hello Kitty and rule the Universe!Originally Posted by VirtueX
Laughs uncontrollably at Hello Kitty Vader. Urge to pummel rising.....
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Fireheart -
The one-word name should be Committee.
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Fireheart -
Spines is superb at taking down multiple enemies and not bad at single targets, either. Invulnerability gives you the toughness to excel and multiple enemies actually buff its defenses, once you have Invincibility.
I'd say it's a great combo and not hard to make 'awesome' - IO sets just add to the awesome.
One weak power is Barb Swipe, so I suggest skipping that and replacing it with Boxing at L6. That will lead to the rest of Fighting Pool (in the 30s, or so) which amplifies your already potent defenses.
Call Me Awesome posted a terrific guide to soft-capping Defense with Invulnerability - Although it's intended for Tankers, the guidance is still useful to Scrappers: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=126983 . I'll just add that going the 'Full Awesome' as described in this guide may be more than you want to do, as it leaves you weak on other aspects and costs a bundle. Find your own balance point.
Be Well!
Fireheart -
Regardless of AT, but particularly on Tankers, I enjoy the feeling that I am helping to shape the encounter/battle, that my presence is significant, that If I was not there, then things would be much worse. I practice Tanker Vision, where part of my attention is always on the location and condition of my teammates (sometimes to my own detriment, because even my best Tanker is not completely bulletproof). I use aggro and my various tools for shaping it to control which enemies are attacking and who they are attacking, and Yes, I try to destroy the enemy quickly with my own attacks, because That is part of my job, too.
When Tanking, I enjoy being the focal point of villainous aggression - as well as the focal point for my teammates' efforts - they drop the bombs on Me, because I'm where the enemy is. They throw the buffs and heals on Me, because I'm the one who's taking a beating, so they don't have to. I'm serving up the enemy for their banquet of destruction, bringing the courses and making sure nobody goes without, or has too much. And when we Do get too much, then I'm in the middle of it, working to contain the chaos, until we end in triumph, or defeat.
Be Well!
Fireheart -
If you don't mind, I generally like to examine the aggro, before jumping into it. Granted, on a full team of 8 competent players, a Tanker's role is to be the Anvil that holds the mob, so the others can destroy it. However, on smaller teams, or ones without overwhelming damage, breaking up mobs into smaller-sized chunks and using aggro control intelligently is a great survival technique.
I Always prefer to pull the mob onto ground that I've Prepared for their demise, rather than charging onto Their ground and possibly being overwhelmed by a couple of bosses I didn't notice at first, or Snipers from the next group over. This means that I spend some few seconds at the doorway, checking to see that there's not a surprise, waiting to jump my backside when I step through and I'm swinging wide, to see that there's not two or more spawns of mobs, in close proximity. I'm checking the angles, to see if I can draw five or so out of the big tangle, deliver them for destruction, and then go back for more.
Also, even before SSK and the new threat scales, there would/could be certain missions, or team dynamics, which would cause tougher than ordinary spawns. Charging into THAT is pure stupidity. Sometimes the best answer is a 'Long Pull', where you string out the spawn through half of the map chasing you, Lose aggro (deliberately), and then run back and pull off the last stragglers when they return to their spawn point.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that there are a LOT more tactics and strategies for effective Tanking, than simply charging in and taking the alpha. For me, mobility, adaptability, situational awareness, and team communication are more critical than how much aggro you can handle and how much damage you can survive.
Granted, these factors make you more effective, Regardless of AT - and the OP's example groups lacked such things. They are hard to Teach with a large team, which forces a different dynamic... until you crash into a particularly difficult spawn, perhaps with a bunch of CoT plus Shadow Cyst Crystals... At which point, good strategy and tactics can resolve the issue without too many deaths - while lack of these factors leads to people quitting in frustration. A Tanker zerg-rush is Not always the best solution!
Be Well!
Fireheart -
That tail looks like... either an extra Threat, or a lure to bring you closer...
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Fireheart -
As for respecs, don't forget that the Devs are generous and pass out Free Respecs with just about every new Issue. Every issue, I take a survey of my toons and consider if any are ripe for a respec, either because of bad power-picks, bad slotting, or as an opportunity to upgrade Enhancements. I usually find one or two that need tweaking, sometimes more.
So I burn my stored free respec and then the new issue comes out and the Devs give me a new free respec... Easy and fun.
Be Well!
Fireheart -
Isn't there a bind load file 'silent' option?
LordXenite uses it in his post here: http://boards.cityofheroes.com//showthread.php?t=190418
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Fireheart -
If you want a good guide for Regeneration, read Evil Geko and skip the parts about Broadsword: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=122824
As for Kinetic Melee, we know Nothing about it, except that one video, and I hope to hell they speed up those animations, or you could get Dead before you have a chance to attack.
Be Well!
Fireheart -
Much as I hate it, the Fighting pool is going to make a big difference in your final survivability as Tanker (if you don't already have it - Posting a build would allow for more specific feedback). Swapping out Energy Punch, for Boxing will decrease your final DPS/DPA, but only by a little, and Tough will add a goodly bit of Resistance.
The question of Defense is a tough one, since you have no core powers that add Defense. Weave, all by itself, is kinda pitiful and while you Can stack up substantial Defense from IOs it's hideously expensive and tends to gimp other aspects of your build.
One solution is to make sure your team knows you expect some support from them and then bulk up on +HPs, +Regen, and +Recharge and power through on Healing Flames. The enemy is going to hit you and hurt you, but you just power up and go right back into the fight. You can drop a Burn patch to get a little respite, but be sure to slot some Taunt into Blazing Aura, to help keep them coming back, despite the fear.
You can also take Weave and maybe Maneuvers, and then Pay for the IOs to crank your Defense up to the cap - it Does work... Until the Defense Debuffs pile up, in which case I hope you haven't neglected your +HPs, +Regen, and +Recharge, because Healing Flames is gonna get a workout. And whoever is providing your support had best be on their game, or you're going to have another chance to use Rise of the Phoenix.
Be Well!
Fireheart -
With the new bonuses to Vigilance, a Defender might not be a bad choice, either. Or, wait for Going Rogue and team a Corruptor with a Tanker.
Also, I posted a good leveling build for a WP/DB Tanker here - having a super, tricked out build is great, but it won't help you Get There.
Be Well!
Fireheart -
And the Dalek just stands by, watching? Where's the 'Exterminate'?
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Fireheart -
Quote:Your export from Mids needs to be in php/Zetaboards format, since the official boards no longer use the 'official boards' coding.Originally Posted by Wiggz
I would post it below, but for some reason I can't seem to figure out how to export it without all of the coding gibberish coming up.
As for the question about Taunt, I have a +Taunt enhancement in RttC and my final build will probably have 2 (If the Devs don't relent and finally give WP a 'real' taunt aura). I also use my high accuracy to leverage Gauntlet against all targets I can reach, and I move about a bit, to improve that (even though it's not recommended with just RttC). I also use ranged Vet attacks and the Origin inherent, to extend the reach of Gauntlet, for those pesky runners and outliers. Finally, I generally tank only for a small, experienced team - They know how to deal with any aggro they steal from me and also how to let me get it and keep it first. And in my final build, I may be forced to take Taunt anyway, for the AVs & TFs.
Be Well!
Fireheart -
What I do is take a screenshot of my Enhancement Management window. Then I can transcribe it to the Builder - Yes, by hand, don't be a lazy bum.
I can think of any number of reasons why the Devs wouldn't want us to be able to export game-information, so I'm not surprised that they don't have this feature.
Be Well!
Fireheart -
I figured I may as well post the WP/DB build I'm using now. Yours could be completely different. He's only up to level 32 now, so just ignore the empty spots.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.707
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Rogue Nightwolf: Level 37 Science Tanker
Primary Power Set: Willpower
Secondary Power Set: Dual Blades
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fitness
Hero Profile:
Level 1: High Pain Tolerance -- Heal-I(A), Heal-I(5), Heal-I(7)
Level 1: Nimble Slash -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(3), EndRdx-I(9), Dmg-I(13)
Level 2: Power Slice -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(3), EndRdx-I(9), Dmg-I(13)
Level 4: Ablating Strike -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(5), EndRdx-I(11), Dmg-I(15)
Level 6: Fast Healing -- Heal-I(A), Heal-I(7), Heal-I(11)
Level 8: Indomitable Will -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 10: Combat Jumping -- DefBuff-I(A)
Level 12: Quick Recovery -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(15), EndMod-I(29)
Level 14: Super Jump -- Jump-I(A)
Level 16: Typhoon's Edge -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(17), EndRdx-I(17), Dmg-I(21)
Level 18: Rise to the Challenge -- EndRdx-I(A), Heal-I(19), Heal-I(19), ToHitDeb-I(21), Taunt-I(31)
Level 20: Mind Over Body -- EndRdx-I(A), ResDam-I(23), ResDam-I(23), ResDam-I(27)
Level 22: Heightened Senses -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 24: Blinding Feint -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(25), EndRdx-I(25), Dmg-I(27)
Level 26: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 28: Vengeful Slice -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(29), EndRdx-I(31), Dmg-I(31)
Level 30: Health -- Heal-I(A)
Level 32: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A)
Level 35: Sweeping Strike -- Empty(A)
Level 38: One Thousand Cuts -- Empty(A)
Level 41: [Empty]
Level 44: [Empty]
Level 47: [Empty]
Level 49: [Empty]
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
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Be Well!
Fireheart -
About Mids, you may have an older version, which has the wrong update address. I suggest you go to Titan Network, which is maintaining and updating Mids now, and download the latest version.
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Fireheart -
Quote:No he will not be able to Tank like a Stone, Shield or Invulnerability... But they can't Tank like a Willpower, either. No two Tanker sets perform just like the other and Willpower is fairly unique.Originally Posted by Wiggz
Thanks for the response. I gotta say, I'm loving the character. He's the first tank I've ever played that didn't feel like 'TAUNT... blah... blah... blah... TAUNT... blah... blah... blah...'
He's only level 12 so far, though and I'm curious - how will he compare with the upper level tanks when he gets there? With no tier 9 power to speak of, can he tank with the likes of Stone, Shield or Invulnerability?
First, you'd have to define what you mean by 'Tank'.
Rather than getting into a long discussion about that, let me just assure you, Willpower has the tools needed to perform Tanking duties. How You use those tools is up to you.
Be Well!
Fireheart -
I always make a point of slotting my builds as if I were leveling them - this makes it easier to see what I'm doing in those levels Before 50. By the same token, I create my builds (initially) with just SOs, then tweak them from there. My reasoning is thus - I can Haz the SO build, regardless of the market or recipe drops, so that forms my default. If I'm having trouble getting some of the IOs I want, it's not a big issue, because the character still Functions without them.
Quote:That's fine, but you didn't do that this time - or rather, you slotted up the wrong defenses first. But don't worry about it, that's why a third-party critique is useful.On my tankers I always slot my defenses with preference over my attacks, sorry I should have mentioned that.
I am continually disappointed in the levels of accuracy offered by most IO sets. They'll let you get +130% Damage (before ED), but skimp on the other attributes - Damage and Hastened Recharge, and all the rest, are Irrelevant, if you don't hit your target. The AoE blast sets are particularly egregious in that, since most of those attacks have nerfed accuracy already.
However, I've found that one can often compensate by adding 1-2 from another set, to balance those weaknesses. No need for a full frankenslot.
Be Well!
Fireheart -
Quote:Brouhaha sounds more like a Sonic...Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Since scrappers don't really get a good set that simulates fisticuffs, I'd say Donnybrook is better for a tank.
Brouhaha is a nice one too.
Be Well!
Fireheart -
Quote:I'm definitely not saying that it shouldn't be slotted, but IMO you have better things to do with your slots until the late 20s-early 30s. In my finalized build, I'm thinking Steadfast Res/End & Res/Def, plus a random Res/End from another set.Originally Posted by Soran
If you're saying that Unyielding doesn't need to be socketed right way, fair enough, but if you're saying that 15% doesn't matter I'd have to disagree. My tank is only vaguely aware of enemies that do s/l damage but that 15% is pretty helpful when surrounded by a ton of fire or energy users.
Temporary Invulnerability and Unyielding have an endurance cost of .26/second, according to my research, and Invincibility is cheaper still, at .21/sec. However, both Tough and Weave cost .33/sec each - that's an additional 30% more, or so, which is why I suggested more EndRed. Looking at the build again, I see that the OP actually did slot more EndRed that I thought, at first, so I'll withdraw this concern.Quote:End is a concern and we are talking about a lot of toggles, but it seemed odd to comment on Weave needing more end reduction when Tough and Invincibility have the same amount of reduction and they cost as much or more.
Anyway, if you need to drop endurance usage you are better off making sure you have extra end red in your attacks. 4 of the 5 attacks the OP is using have a base cost that is above or very close to their recharge time, meaning they cost 1.0+ end/s. Weave and Tough only have a base cost of .32/s.
On top of that he has Conserve and PP at high levels, so yea.
Hmm, I could have sworn he did have all 6, when I first looked at it. Now the attack is only missing a bit of Acc/End...Quote:Obliteration isn't giving him any defense at all, since he didn't get the 6 piece. Positional defense isn't all bad anyway, since it will help with Psi attacks. The Eradication/Scirocco's combo looks like a good pick out of PBAoEs, thought I might have used a 6th slot to get the negative res.
I meant 'attack values' like accuracy, recharge, and yes, damage, though with the low-damage, high-speed attacks in Dual Blades, endurance does become an issue, too. If you're loafing along at 'Tanker speed', it's not an problem at all, but when the situation goes wobbly and you kick it up to 'frappe', then even my WP/DB (with Stamina) notices the blue bar dwindling. Personally I 5-slot my attacks with Crushing Impacts - 5 slots of Kinetic Combat would probably bankrupt me.Quote:Oblit's are there for the recharge bonus and the accuracy bonus. Most of my attacks in there have capped dmg so I dunno what you mean by attack values. Remember invinc gives to hit and as such i can skimp on acuracy a little bit but I do see your point on blinding feint and will definately get more acuracy in that. The 6 slotting of temp invuln is for set bonus's as well as to put a little something there for psi protection. I put RPD where i did because i didn't see anything else worth taking that early. I'm actually gona go back this weekend and work on the build a little more and will repost it then.
As for Invincibility and Global Acc bonuses making up for weak slotting - I'm sorry, I've never found it so. Yes, they help, but unless you're traveling with a retinue of groupies to power Invincibility, you can't count on it in a fight. I prefer to be more accurate than necessary - until the enemy debuffs kick in and you start 'wiffing', at which point the boost from your other abilities compensate enough to win the day. And if you bump into a solo Boss/EB/AV, you've still got plenty of Accuracy to see him off.
Looking at your other power choices for level 12, I can see that RPD makes some sense. However, slotting RPD in preference to Temp. Inv. and not slotting Temp. Inv. until level 46 is NUTS! - um, IMHO. You might want to take another look at the relative values of the two powers and reslot accordingly.
Be Well!
Fireheart