Fire_Away

So is your agenda to solicit gut instincts, or talk people out of them? I thought your ground rules were just one short glance.

tl dr version: Be careful what you wish for because you just might get it.

I'll let you in on a secret. My biggest fear isn't that the save CoH movement fails... it's that the whole thing succeeds for like six months or less... and afterwards we the players find ourselves in the exact same situation we are now. After the self congratulatory hoopla wears off on how "we" pulled off a "miracle", the reality of the situation sets in in terms of what remains of CoH playablity, player population demographics, competition from other, newer games versus what CoH offers and the resources available to apply CoH improvements.

Nobody seems to want to talk about these factors and a "we will jump off that bridge if and when we get to it" attitude prevails. The mere mention that CoH may have already been irreparbly harmed from NCSoft's injustice is met with: "Stop urinating in my cereal" personal attacks and "I'm trying to save the game and you suck". And yet logic would seem to dictate that if things were not so rosy before that fateful Friday, they will most certainly be much worse after November 30th for some time to come.

Staying power survivability is a legit concern. I'll also point out that with the exception of that fateful Friday, I did not see from where I sat that NCSoft was especially dictatoral in their handling of Paragon Studios. And whoever comes next faces far greater challenges to make things work long term. Here's another secret: the "Freem 15" era was not really the "good old days" in terms of game development

Some people will stick with CoH if all it is is a website dedicated to recalling better times for the game. I admire that in a way. But more than anything I dread this type of announcement in our future: "It's been a great nine years. Thank you for all the blood, sweat, tears (and of course money) that went into making City of Heroes what it was. We gave it one heck of ride but it's not working out. Time for us to ride off into the sunset cause you know... in the end we are heroes that's what heroes do." That would hurt a lot of people more than a graceful Nov 30 exit ever will.

Anybody wanna discuss that and allay my fears here? Or is a cheapshot personal slam on how it's really people like me that's destroying CoH (even though I've been with this game through thick and thin for several years) more appropriate?

Good point. Can I be ranked Number Two with all my rants about bases? [That's an Austin Powers ref ftw not a bowel movement ref ftl]

I agree (with just about all you said in your post)... welcome to the "Killers of All Hope" club. Enjoy the great response from most of your fellow players.


Well, even though I chose not to participate in the save CoH movement for much of the reasons you have already stated, I will say that whatever momentum "we" do have is a result of the efforts of TonyV and company. It'll be interesting to see what comes of it.

Well, you are right of course (and I never meant to imply that any sort of hope is stupid). Maybe you should buy some lotto tickets... and use the millions to save CoH. That would be fantastic

Maybe. To use the back from the dead analogy, I'd say it depends on the the quality of life and longevity the patient has after being "saved". Some people are going to be "golden" with the ability to play CoH in any form for any amount of time after Nov 30. Ok, that's fine, I get that. And now I've probably opened the door for several "I'm sticking with CoH no matter what" posts. And that's ok too.

But... the truth is that before that fateful Friday we had, from what I hear, eighty some people that had a role in maintaining what we had and cranking out new shinies at a very high rate... all to keep the game (and I'll give you the benefit of a doubt) at steady state. How many (devs and players) have left and will not return? What's the impact of that? Is it safe to assume that if there are less people working on the product and less people playing the product things are looking up? That is one heck of marketing challenge for whatever comes next.

Is CoH post Nov 30 (if it does happen) going to be a gimped version of CoH? How badly (servers, stuff, bases, etc.)? For how long? Can it survive that long financially? Nobody can answer that right now. I understand that. But you better believe I'm going to look at it very hard before I determine my level of commitment to this game in the future... if it is still around. I've had the rug pulled out from under me once. And I will say "pass" after seven and a half years if the answer is the game is "alive" but on indefinite "life support".

Thank you for so eloquently and evenhandly putting into words many of the same things I've been thinking about lately too. Interesting times indeed.

Hey, go ahead and run Posi 1 and 2 as much as you like. That's your right. But, what's the financial damage of you doing that? Bad press? Pffft, NCSoft has been there and done that. So far, I'm not seeing any huge incentive for NCSoft to do or say anything more than what they already have with the possible exception of how non expired time is going to work . Actions speak louder than words and NCSoft has acted. People get that there is no Paragon Studios any longer right? And that the clock is running? And that City of Heroes has been irreparably harmed already with exodus (dev and player) and that it's only getting worse with each passing day?

I love CoH as much as just about anyone (have played nearly every day for well over seven years). And I love paragonwiki (and have proudly shaken TonyV's hand stating that). But I happen to hold the unpopular so called "troll's" opinion that Humpty Dumpty has had a great fall and all the king's horses... But, then again, I'm not spouting all the rhetoric about "fighting to end" either. Why are you worried about "nuclear"? Nuclear has already happened and it wasn't the players that dropped the bomb. You want to fight? Take the gloves off and fight. Otherwise exit gracefully and accept the fate of CoH has already been determined.

I'm with you. Civil is one thing. Trying to stifle (again) people expressing their displeasure over an "injustice" (hey Brian Clayton's word not mine) is quite another. Different people deal with injustice in different ways. I don't get where individuals expressing their opinions regarding their planned course of action regarding the purchase of NCSoft products is so out of bounds... or how a couple of idiotic posts in the forum are going to torpedo sensitive negotiations... unless you are going to hunt for scapegoats in the event of failure. Idiotic posts in the forum aren't such a new thing; telling people to pipe down multiple times kind of is.

Good luck to you guys (and I mean it). But these "you shut up cause we are doing stuff behind closed doors" stuff isn't endearing me to your cause... regardless of how noble it may be. Sorry Hyperstrike, nothing personal but I'm a free speech (within forum rules) guy first.

Ok so now I'm confused. When eighty plus people don't get their jobs back (or if you don't get your hands on the IP for all your efforts) is it ok then to hate NCsoft... or should I hate the NCsoft haters for a self-fufilling prophecy? What if I don't hate anybody? Tell ya what. It's a whole lot easier if you lead what you want and those who wish to follow do so and those that want to speak out differently also do so. Last time I checked that was how the forum (and this community) worked best.

Pretty much this I'm afraid. The topic is today's news blurb in a couple of places on the internet specializing in a specific form of gaming. Enjoy the fifteen minutes of "fame". As to changing the thinking of an entire industry... meh doubt it.

One of the many enlightening things to me of yesterday's Coffee Talk was how the devs, to a person, seem to understand and accept the transient nature of the business. I was also struck by the incestuous (sorry, I searched for a better word but could not find it) way devs interact (i.e., we play their games, they play ours, we know them, they know us, they come here, we go there, etc. etc.).

I predict the true and everlasting impacts will not be on "the industry". Rather, it will be the effects City of Heroes has on your heart, on my heart, on the community, and on the people (past and present) who brought us this wonderful game. That is genuine and endearing.

All the king's horses...

Ok Hyperstrike, that one cracked me up. My villains can't even get to Croatoa unless there are special circumstances (winter event)

I also support ops suggestion.

So the thing I haven't quite figured out yet is this: There are people like me, who have hounded the devs for improvements and results from like a few months after the original base code was put into effect until now without much success. Are we naive, idiotic, or eventual positive change agents? I guess time will tell.. but the multi year track record points more to naive at best.

Great discussion and I see your point from an artistic point of view as well (and thank you for the civility, much appreciated).

Don't want to thread jack too much so I'll take a shot at answering your question and split. How about picking a "simple" functional base improvement suggestion and actually implementing it (I know, I know... standard code rant with a "Jenga on fire chaser" applies)? But, for example, I know some people that would go nuts for some more supergroup emblems (including a permanent blank one). I could see some promotion potential there.

It is if you never tire of going "oooh and aaah" over the decorative talents of a few people (and there certainly is a place for that). But if you look behind a decorative facade and hope for more "meat on the bone" that would benefit a larger audience it's a sad story. I know others disagree, but to me this is just another example of PS promoting the wrong thing in the wrong way (while avoiding doing the right thing in the right way).

Nah, real men like their code like they like their Jenga... on fire.

Heh, I remember the days when an indefinite red name comment on bases like this would generate dozens of speculation posts on what's coming.

Now we have this one from the former head base cheerleader:


All I'm saying is a healthy dose of skepticism until if/when we see results is probably justified given the track record of this. And great catch on my Missouri reference earlier . Show Me.