Filth_EU

I had just the same problems pre-stamina with endurance. I am guessing Ice Sword Circle causes problems for a lot of */Ice doms and Arctic Air adds to them. I'm used to having to manage endurance coming from stone/stone tank so it wasn't too much of a shock, and as it turns out Thorn is pretty cheap compared to the other secondaries.

If you want to compare the endurance values you can do what I do and just read Character Builder, it pretty much supports what you're saying, but it also shows you the horrific costs of some of the other sets

[ QUOTE ]
You, Filth, should go play an Ice/Ice and come back to say that endurance isn't a problem. Where are you taking the numbers from anyway?


[/ QUOTE ]
Be careful what you say I said ;>
My figures are from Character Builder I'm not at all sure that all the figures it uses are correct, however, the ones I have been able to check are spot on, not that means anything else is right.
Edit : so it's right of you to challenge what I'm saying about costs/damage etc. but you're also in a position to check the figures I can't.

I don't doubt that Ice/Ice together may have endurance problems. Ice Assault itself does seem to have higher endurance needs than Thorn, it also has higher damage - in some cases much higher damage than Thorn. If you take a look at the other assault sets, ice doesn't look too bad. if you look specifically at the high-end powers Ice is not the most expensive, it's actually the second cheapest.

[ QUOTE ]

It did become much more manageable after level 22 when I got accuracy SOs and Stamina. Before that I could and regularly did run out of endurance when fighting 3 even level minions using just my single target hold and the 3 first single target attacks from Icy Assault.


[/ QUOTE ]
I did as well using Thorn. After testing the AoE/Cone powers I decided I wasn't going to use any of them since the damage wasn't good enough and the endurance cost was too much of a problem. That's one of the reasons went with taking and slotting only 2 (single target) attacks.

[ QUOTE ]

Add Arctic Air and you have the ultimate end hog. You can't keep that power running without 2-3 endurance reduction SOs and Stamina if you wish to do anything else at all.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't doubt it - but you have the option to use it or not - it seems pretty powerful to me and is an option I don't have so there's that tradeoff; so sure, Ice/Ice can be endurance heavy but it looks to me that it also has more control in the primary and higher damage in the secondary. Did you know Ice Assault has the second highest damaging AoE attack and gets it at level 4? (the highest is Psionic at level 38).

[ QUOTE ]
Ice doesn't get good damage till level 35, then the end cost goes through the roof too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most of the assault powers are like that (except Energy). As far as high end power endurance use goes, Ice is actually cheaper than Fire, Energy and Psionic - only Thorns is less endurance intensive than Ice.

[ QUOTE ]
Dominators were supposed to have damage dealing powers as compensation for containment (the inherent power) and containment (the ability to contain the baddies)


[/ QUOTE ]
Aha, you mean both containment and containment then?
I'm not sure the assault set was put in as a secondary for Dominators as "compensation" for containment. Assault is there for attack! not because the designers were thinking "sorry guys, Domination is a bit [censored] - you can have some wacky tanker/scrapper/blaster attack powers instead!"

[ QUOTE ]

in reality they got the raw end of the deal and are way outclassed 99% of the time by a troller.

[/ QUOTE ]
Personally I have no problem with the primary set, or how Domination works (it could do with improvement in PvP). The likelyhood of the Assault powers actually being changed is zero - look at what happened to blaster secondaries (nothing) - even when Cryptic have admitted they were perhaps ill-considered.

If anything I'd like the damage buff to be increased further during Domination this would increase the temptation to fire it off more regularly, it wouldn't need changing the set or changing anything under "normal" circumstances and it would be completely in keeping with the AT. It would also finally make sense of the Assault set.

[ QUOTE ]
It's endurance per point of damage that is the issue.

It goes like this for a solo boss fight:

1) Activate domination, hold boss, kill minions
2) Refresh hold on boss, use secondary attack to damage boss
3) Repeat 2)
4) Domination expires
5) Endurance runs out with the boss still at 10% hp
6) Boss kills dom

ant that is just for 1 equal level boss.

[/ QUOTE ]

I tried doing a careful test myself using your situation. I'm level 34 plant/thorn. I deliberately didn't use the Flytrap pet or Confuse in order to not get any damage help from either.

I've got 2 main attacks 6 slotted - Skewer and Impale with 2 ACC, 3 DMG, 1 Recharge, I also have the base attack with the one slot for ACC. All three of these attacks are single target, both Skewer and Impale are supposed to be 'moderate' damage - Skewer does more damage and is melee. To an even level no-resistance-to-Lethal minion at this level I'm doing around 100 points of damage with Skewer and (I think) 74 with Impale.

Anyway, I didn't have the fatal problems with Endurance / Damage that you're describing. I could Hold the Boss, use an AoE control power on the group (Creepers) and dispatch the minions/Lts whilst keeping the boss Held, then switch to the boss and finish him off.

This is without using Domination. If I do use Domination I seem to get a +40% damage boost along with the Mag & duration increase. Maybe it's just a difference in tactics or power use - I don't use or have any AoE/Cone attacks from the Assault set and this certainly saves me endurance. Impale and Skewer are the only attacks I've actually chosen so far.

I just took a look at comparing Ice Bolt+Ice Sword+Ice Blast with Thorny Darts+Slewer+Impale (so the 3 basic single target attacks) and they are very close - ice is very slightly more endurance intensive and does very slightly less damage. If you figure in the Cone/Aoe attacks it gets more complicated - ice starts doing more damage and ramping up the endurance use.

[ QUOTE ]
/psi is so poor, none of the first 7 attacks have anything higher than moderate damage, and then you need to spend decent slots on them to get them up that high, meaning you're taking away from the control side.


[/ QUOTE ]
Psi does seem a little weak, but this is true of all the assault powers if you look at them. I still only have 2 attacks in Thorn that are any good and I'm level 34. Psi is also hardly resisted or defended against by anything, the -Recharge is pretty nasty as well.

[ QUOTE ]

The fact that a Controller can hold for twice as long...

[/ QUOTE ]
They can? With Domination you can hold at twice the magnitude for a longer duration.

Bilharzia on Union.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've long suspected that the endurance problem is specifically an Ice thing. I've yet to meet an Ice/Ice that doesn't complain about it. Some others do too but not with same regularity, and again others say they're fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Possible, Ice is the only kind i've gotten past level 4 with.

I'm hoping things will look up a bit once I hit 32 and get my pet.

[/ QUOTE ]

It could just be Ice, I have End problems but I don't recognise what you're describing so much, however, the Confuse in Plant means you don't have to do so much damage, and the Aim in Thorns gives you a damage and accuracy boost.

[ QUOTE ]

Do you have any suggestion with reagrds to the secondary. We would like to hear them ??

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, your Majesty, my suggestion is to "make it better". It could be just me not liking a few of the Thorn Assault powers. For one there's some delay switching back and forth between Plant and Thorns (none of the other sets have this delay I understand). A good attack like Impale has a long wind up animation which gets annoying and the other low level ranged attacks are not that great - a cone and a PBAoE. The damage is low and endurance cost fairly high. There are two more powers in Thorn I haven't tried yet so I'm looking forward to them, maybe then I'll be OK with it and happily go back to stabbing heroes with poison.

I've tried Fire at low level and it seems much faster at dishing out damage than Thorn which is fine, fire is supposed to be like that. So perhaps there's not much wrong with the secondaries, other than the fact that I keep hearing from other people who have tried Doms they aren't impressed with the secondaries either. I think this is partly because of the higher damage and faster pace of CoV - it's not that the Dom secondary is bad compared across CoV / CoH, it's more that it feels low in comparison to other villains.

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

This applies not only at a character level but also on a class level. Because make no mistake once the Controllers hit town, our PRIMARY will seem like an acorn to their oaks.


[/ QUOTE ]
Except we have Domination, which makes our control abilities much more powerful than any Controller when activated.


[/ QUOTE ]
Sure, we do BUT for such a limited space of time. For the vast majority of the Mish. our holds e.t.c are lackluster at best.


[/ QUOTE ]
I just don't think this is true - I have no problem with my holds and control powers throughout the mission. In addition I have the option to use Domination which gives me significantly more control power than a Controller for a time. You may not like this mechanic but it seems to me that this is one of the things that works best for Dominators as an AT; not only that, for me it's the best realised of the inherent villain powers.

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

It is our SECONARY that we will need to fall back on, and the combination of control / damage that only we can offer. This in some small way may ensure our survivability.


[/ QUOTE ]
It's the Dominator's control ability that is on offer, no (other) villain gives a toss about a Dominator's damage ability.


[/ QUOTE ]
The Dominator's do - this is their forum, read some of the previous post's.


[/ QUOTE ]
I'm aware of that, I have a Dominator. My point is I can't see Dominators wanting to "fall back on our secondary" as you are suggesting, especially since it's second rate and will almost certainly remain so. No villain team is going to say "hmmm...we lack damage...let's get a Dominator!"

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
It seems that the set is all about Plant/Plant - no problems there, move along and nothing to see for the rest of us……………..

[/ QUOTE ]
I think you mean Plant/Thorns. Thorn assault is pretty awkard to use, it's slow and the AoE & Cone attacks are weak. It does has a couple of late strong attacks post-34. In my limited experience it's outclassed by Energy and Fire for usability & damage. Plant is interesting, but, it's out-controlled by Ice and Mind and out-damaged by Fire.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is precisely the point, Plant/Thorns (many thanks for picking me up on that) seems to be well balanced . It is almost as if the Dev’s came up with the idea of this combination and hashed together an archetype around it

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm a little slow, I don't really understand your point about Plant/Thorn, precisely

[ QUOTE ]
How'd you calculate 18?

Normal holds are Mag 2 aren't they? Domination doubles as does Power boost. Thats Mag 8.

Even if they're Mag 3 I can't figure where 18 comes from. 12 max by my reckoning.

[/ QUOTE ]

Strangler (Mag 3x2) = 6
Vines (Mag 3x2=6) = 6
...five seconds after Strangler was activated it has recharged....
repeat Strangler (Mag 3x2) = 6

I've put out a single target Hold of Mag 18 in under 10 seconds.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If buff/debuff/heal isn't needed I would go with a Dominator.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes Heal is sometimes not needed, but when is a debuff (such as -res) ever not helpful?

Why have someone who can do a little damge instead of someone who can make the whole team do a whole lot more damage?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes... I think you're talking about Corruptors

edit: grr spelling.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Except we have Domination, which makes our control abilities much more powerful than any Controller when activated.


[/ QUOTE ]

Much? I don't think so, slightly perhaps, and only occasionaly available.

[/ QUOTE ]

Twice as powerful, which means a Mag18 Hold in a few seconds using standard single target/AoE Hold.

[ QUOTE ]
Trouble is the dominators power comes in 90 second bursts, where as over time the controller has a better average. The AoE holds are an example, a controller cant stack them anymore, a dominator is lucky to get a use once every other group.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, and this is what makes the Dominator the more powerful at control - a Controller does better 'on average' but the Dominator can be always at the point of exploding into something which doubles their control power and being much more effective at a crucial moment. It seems to me this works very well.

The problem with the Dominator for me is that there's just something wrong with the secondary and I'm not even sure it's a question of upping the damage on what's already there. It could be I don't have enough experience with more of the sets other than Thorn which is pretty awkard to use and has lacklustre AoE/Cone attacks.

Some Corruptors seem to have far worse Endurance problems than Dominators so I'm not sure Endurance is the issue.

[ QUOTE ]
Having teamed with a fair few controllers, and a fair few dominators controllers tend to actually add more to your offensive ability. Containment makes most (not all) builds into damage machines. I dont think many dominators can compete with that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't clear - when I say "offensive" I do mean control and not (necessarily) damage. A Dominator has potentially more powerful control powers than a Controller. Controls are directly offensive, unlike buffs or even debuffs which are defensive. This is the whole point of Domination and this is what makes Dominators better at control than the 'care-bear' Controllers.

[ QUOTE ]
The real crunch will be when hero villain crossover is enabled. What team would take a Dominator when they could have a Controller?


[/ QUOTE ]
Depends on the team, Domination makes a significant difference to your offensive ability. If buff/debuff/heal isn't needed I would go with a Dominator.

[ QUOTE ]

I'm not that worried though, I'm reasonably confident Dominators will get some love in issue 7.

[/ QUOTE ]
On what basis?

[ QUOTE ]

I agree - My only hope is that the new power pools, that incidentally will be the same for all Villainous archetypes. Will contain one set, which in some way increases our level of survivability, through self heals and self buffs.


[/ QUOTE ]
So...like a controller then? Not really bothered about this, the medicine pool has a self heal and it's good.

[ QUOTE ]

This applies not only at a character level but also on a class level. Because make no mistake once the Controllers hit town, our PRIMARY will seem like an acorn to their oaks.


[/ QUOTE ]
Except we have Domination, which makes our control abilities much more powerful than any Controller when activated.

[ QUOTE ]

It is our SECONARY that we will need to fall back on, and the combination of control / damage that only we can offer. This in some small way may ensure our survivability.


[/ QUOTE ]
It's the Dominator's control ability that is on offer, no (other) villain gives a toss about a Dominator's damage ability.

[ QUOTE ]
It seems that the set is all about Plant/Plant - no problems there, move along and nothing to see for the rest of us……………..

[/ QUOTE ]
I think you mean Plant/Thorns. Thorn assault is pretty awkard to use, it's slow and the AoE & Cone attacks are weak. It does has a couple of late strong attacks post-34. In my limited experience it's outclassed by Energy and Fire for usability & damage. Plant is interesting, but, it's out-controlled by Ice and Mind and out-damaged by Fire.

[ QUOTE ]
Acrobatics is nice and all but it's a pity to be shoehorned into taking a certain travel pool because of something unrelated to travel. Don't get me wrong, I love Leaping pool, but I'm getting to the point where all my toons have it - inconveniently, it fits best the concept and playstyle for the one who don't really need it for mez protection, eg my scrapper. Even my Brute has to take it for knockback protection.


[/ QUOTE ]
I was pointing out that mezz resistance is already here, yes it's annoying that you have to get 2 pre-requites to get it.

[ QUOTE ]

And anyway, that still leaves stuns, sleeps, confuses and fears, and stuns and sleeps drop Acrobatics.

Controllers can get mez protection in epic pools so I don't see why doms shouldn't.

[/ QUOTE ]
Controllers get one power in one Ancillary pool that covers some of that ground - and they don't get resistance to Confuse or Fear (or Knockback) with it. It's also a click power - good for not being vunerable to toggle drop, bad since it has some down time.

Not that I wouldn't like greater mezz resist for Doms, (Acrobatics is pretty pathetic) but it's easy to think of the Hero Ancillaries as giving huge advantages.

Can't see any of your suggestions happening. Domination build up seems about right in PvE, PvP it's a little trickier. Self heal - Medicine pool? Self rez - Awaken? You don't need a 40-50 Epic power for those. From what I've read the new powers from 40-50 will be available across the ATs, can't imagine it won't include a shield, I'm guessing though

Someone else mentioned Mezz protection which again is already available from the leaping pool as Acrobatics. It will protect you against a single Hold in both PvE and PvP. It also gives you Knockback resistance. I've found CJ and Acrobatics a huge help.

As far as people's experience goes in missions - it depends entirely on the difficulty you set and the size of the team so it's pretty meaningless to compare experiences without saying what you're fighting, at what level difference etc.

The big issue for me is damage in the secondary - it's just not that great compared to the other villains.

[ QUOTE ]
Hello all.

I'm a new player to the game and have spent much of today playing with the costume maker (You sure can get stuck there!)

But anyway, I was just curious if there is an overabundance or lack of certain kinds of characters? As right now I'm feeling pretty open on what to play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Teams will love you if you play a Corrupter with either Kinetics or Thermal as a secondary. I have seen a bizarre number of high-ish level Corrupters with both these secondaries who haven't taken the powers from their secondaries.

I've done a bit as Bilharzia in Siren's Call (on Union), you'd have to ask the heroes whether I've been effective. I haven't seen many other Doms there when I've been on but I have been around when there have been some reasonably sized fights.

As far as surviving yourself goes it's pretty hard to do anything if you're not in a team for support, I used to take a few BFs with me now I live with it if held or rely on a Corrupter to assist. It is frustrating to see heroes pump BFs and run away (if they can) but that's just the way it is. I chose the leaping pool which has Combat Jumping and Acrobatics - these powers are extremely useful since you can get away from Immobs and single Holds with them. Against co-ordinated Controllers they won't help much but these powers will give you an edge.

The problem with a Dom especially in PvP is that our secondary is pretty weak and we have no support powers. I'm Plant/Thorn which means I have to get close to use the best of my powers and I'm extremely squishy so I have to time attacks, hit and run - CJ and Acrobatics help here again. I've also found the Confuse from Seeds can be very effective, as are the immobs. Although the secondaries aren't great I've found my two main attacks to be surprisingly heavy hitting so when I can I get in there and stab away a bit.

Domination is what sets us apart - it's difficult to build up since your life expectancy is pretty short, but I've done it several times in PvP. With Domination I can break a tank using Granite Armour, and by extention any other mezz resist I know - Granite is unique since it can't be toggled dropped as far as I know. I can put a hold on with a Mag of 12 very quickly and stack Mag 18 in a few seconds - for a single character to do this is pretty powerful. As a single Dominator without Domination I wouldn't bother throwing a Hold on Scrappers or Tanks, though immobs will slow them down and attacks will hurt them and if you have Plant - seeds may Confuse them.

More Doms (and probably more importantly Corrupters) kicking around Siren's would be great since there isn't a shortage of Controllers, and the bane of Dominators - Empaths.

[ QUOTE ]
Is Hand Clap worth taking as a soft control power to improve survivability?

Does it do Knockback, Knockdown or Knockup? How often does it disorient?

[/ QUOTE ]

I tried it on test with my Ice/SS tank. It does massive Knockback to anything it hits, the stun is supposed to be 50% Mag2. The problem I had with it is that it throws anything around you out of Chilling Embrace/Icicles - so I didn't take it. It's probably best used with an Inv tank or as a panic power, I would take it as an Inv.

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I was torn between Handclap and Jab. But I'm not sure about dropping Swift. If anything I'd drop Hurdle, as I already have combat jumping.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know if you're interested in PvP but - Hurdle does not get suppressed (like SJ does) after an attack - this can have advantages.

CJ+Hurdle do go together but there's a difference - Hurdle boosts your horizontal jump distance and CJ the vertical.

Looks good Empath, the things I might consider would be maybe finding space in your build for Handclap - replacing either Jab or Hurl, it's useful to have a decent Mezz power even if it has disadvantages, and Handclap does have enormous knockback but the Stun is good.

I would take Hurdle and Health from the fitness pool rather than Swift and Hurdle. Health might not seem like much but it will boost your regen.

I have a DM/EA brute and I slot 2 ACC, 2 EndRed, 2 RechRed.; of course you have the benefit of Rage to help ACC.

[ QUOTE ]
I have done the 1st respec as a MM, 3+ months ago. The pets need control when there is an enemy in their range, and you dont want them to attack. Yes it is a bit intense controlling them but that doesnt have anything to do with the AI.

This has gone off-topic, will anyone organize the 1st respec again?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why don't you organise it Manf?