Extremus

I'd be happy to lend my advice and experience to try and get interest up a bit.

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Yes, blasters melee attacks can guarantee dropping one toggle, not all - which is what happens if held.

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Hmm sorry I think we should all get on the same page here..
My en/en blasters combo of Bonesmasher,energy punch has a CHANCE (albeit a small one, like %5 or so) of dropping FIVE toggles with just those 2 attacks.. Regardless of whatever mez resistance they may have. The chance is small for 5 but the chance for 2 toggles must be like 100% and the chance for 3 toggles is very high. Those 2 attacks are also very fast, propably it takes like 2 secs.. After that I have found that in almost 100% of cases the targets mez resistance is gone and I follow up with power thrust or something else.

I remember having an experimental arena duel with my friends lvl 50 ice tank (who didnt have much pvp experience), and he said he jumped outta his pants when I smashed right thru wet ice + acrobatics and dropped all of his toggles in a blink of an eye stunning him in the process..

So far I have had little problems with defenses considering the self-buffage of energy combo. Defense-orientated sets are of course problematic. Proper bubblers (/ff MMs for example ) are difficult, but possible. For instance I faced a traps MMs force field generator which did absolutely nothing to protect the poor fella... Wham Bam 3-shotted.

I don't actually even need to be in melee range, since superspeed+combat jump allows me to skim past the target from low altitude with bonesmasher queued, I will land some 20 yards away and bonesmasher will hit.

I admit Im not the most experienced PVPer yet, but still.

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Just by reading this u should all realise how dumb this discussion is. Limitate troller holds? More?? If a troller manages to hold u (which is not an easy task, i can tell u) popping a break free u r free to go. A blapper with the bonesmasher+energy punch combo will kill everything but a tanker or a dulled pain scrapper, but yet will mez scrapper, and all tankers but granite ones. Yeah they can pop a break free, but while they do bonesmasher and energy punch should be charged again, so it means no real time for him to use break free and run away (trying and counterattack would only make things worse). Besides theres the fact that u dont even need to run into melee range, since u can just target, and jump to hit safely at range when u land... and yet im hearing that troller holds should be nerfed cuz after having stacked 3 or 4 of them they detoggle u, although they would need 8-9 more attacks to kill a squishy after that? and besides popping up a break free will ruin all that hard work! How can a troller attack a blaster that pops a break free, BU+aim and jumps over u to land 50 miles away and 2shots u with melee attacks from there?? will it do with one insp then???. If trollers cant hold propperly, thus detoggling, and IMO they already cant atm in pvp, how are they supposed to kill? with fire ball at a 40% dmg blasters one does? cuz i think thats the highest dmg attack a troller can have. A break free used on pvp is to me, like an insp that would give u 100% dmg resist against a blaster. If a blaster means dmg, trollers mean holds... but lately trollers only mean nerf.

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One BF counters the troller?

During my Mag testing last night, Xanthus (Grav/Emp) managed to stack 9+ holds on me in a about 10 seconds, over two Break Frees, maybe three.

PvP at Level50 will be interesting, especially with troller's having access to Power Boost in their epic.

Just tried Blaster and Defender holds, I'll grab the others tomorrow. Seems ONLY conts go through Acro, wonder if they auto crit now.

Interestingly enough, you're right.

Wonder if this is WAI or a recent change, because I sure as hell know I've shrugged off a single hold in team fights before. *sigh*

Come to think of it, I think this is a little off, especially as so many people seem to be taking Acro on Scrappers for that extra hold protection. :\

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Acrobatics provides protections against Magnitude 3 (as in, it'll take one Mag3 hold).

Your base resist is -1, and Acro is an additional 2, you'd have to be hit by 2x Mag3 holds.

Blaster holds and Controllers holds are both Mag3 (IE, they'll hold an Lt or Minion, or any AT without Mez protection, but require more than one application to get a Boss, or someone with Acro).

Now, a controller can hold straight over Acro if he crits for an additional Mag1 (totalling Mag4). I think it's 1/5 chance, or something to that effect. That is probably what you're seeing when a troller goes straight over it.

Dominators with Domination auto-crit to Mag4 with it, which is why when Domination is up, you can hold a boss with one Mez. Likewise, you'd go straight over Acro.

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No, you are wrong on both counts.

A controller will break through with one, single, ST Hold. (I've just tested this with Char). Acrobatics *will* help against Blaster style holds like Freeze Ray.

Dominators do not auto-critical with Domination - their Mag actually doubles (in this case to Mag 6).

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I find your former point interesting, as I've resisted singular Grav and Ill holds with Acro without issue.

And as for Dom's, I may be wrong there, aye.

Acrobatics provides protections against Magnitude 3 (as in, it'll take one Mag3 hold).

Your base resist is -1, and Acro is an additional 2, you'd have to be hit by 2x Mag3 holds.

Blaster holds and Controllers holds are both Mag3 (IE, they'll hold an Lt or Minion, or any AT without Mez protection, but require more than one application to get a Boss, or someone with Acro).

Now, a controller can hold straight over Acro if he crits for an additional Mag1 (totalling Mag4). I think it's 1/5 chance, or something to that effect. That is probably what you're seeing when a troller goes straight over it.

Dominators with Domination auto-crit to Mag4 with it, which is why when Domination is up, you can hold a boss with one Mez. Likewise, you'd go straight over Acro.

Edit: When most people refer to 'Mag', it means Magnitude and references the Hold Resist people have. There is, however, an annoying trend to associate 'Mag' with applications, IE Acro resists one hold, so it must be Mag1. I prefer the former as it's a lot more accurate and accounts for things like critting, and resists.

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Oh, you have Xanthus...hmm...not sure if I could be in an SG with him

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Well, not after last time... oh God, the horror... the horror!

Remember we were also told that I6/CoV would receive extensive EU Beta Testing.

Now, we didn't exactly get that (Hardware problems, if I recall correctly), but we still got I6. Now, I7 there's more of a lax approach as it's not a stand-alone release, but I don't really see them dropping this requirement down too far in advance of I7.

Still, there's always that chance that they're giving us all these I7 changes first, so that the actual 'big patch' is just GFX. Ya know, so we run through all the bugs and cries of DOOOOM before I7.

If your team is taking out the 'troller because he keeps stacking over Mez resistance, yet the Blaster's still splatting your Tank/Scrapper's, then why don't you pay the same attention to the Blasters?

It's hard prioritising targets, but Blasters are squishy, and in a sustained fight they generally go down.

Yes and no.

Yes in that it gives us a taste of L50 PvP outside the arena, and it'll make Hero-vs-Hero raids a lot more interesting.

No in that villains, even auto-sk'd to 50, lack the slots and patron powers needed.

Still, I expected this to come in with I7. But, if it's in now, how long away is I7, actually?

The US has a larger PvP community, yes. But I also get the impression, that as a whole, the EU community is a lot more friendly.

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Toggle knocking isn't the death knell for Scrappers and Tankers in PvP, it's just something that you need to adapt to.

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I agree, but the fact that it is very effective cannot be escaped. I think we should just remind ourselves of the importance of teams Imo tanks need a proper buffing and possibly detoggle defense given to them. Its is primarily tanks who are suffering imo, since all other chars are effective at fighting back.

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Exactly! The whole AT system in CoX is designed to promote teams, as there's always something another AT can lend to a team that will be a benefit.

Tanks have lots of HP, and when buffed, a lot of damage. A good tank in a good team can get kills, a surprising amount infact.

What I would like to know though, is whether you think toggle drops in Zone PvP are worse than in the Arena?

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[...] and to be perfectly honest, you guys should retoggle when something important gets knocked off. The amount of Brutes and Scrappers I've killed because they don't retoggle is silly.

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Pretty difficult to retoggle when you're mezzed.

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Two words.

Break. Free.

Just because you've Mez protection, doesn't mean you're not going to be held/stunned/immob'd etc...

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Three words.

Not. Always. Available.

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I know, which is why I edited my original post. But if you're constantly being taken down by a (lone?) blaster, then you should stock up on Insps, or develop tactics to counter them (web grenades, mez them first, knockback, bring a team) etc...

Toggle knocking isn't the death knell for Scrappers and Tankers in PvP, it's just something that you need to adapt to.

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[...] and to be perfectly honest, you guys should retoggle when something important gets knocked off. The amount of Brutes and Scrappers I've killed because they don't retoggle is silly.

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Pretty difficult to retoggle when you're mezzed.

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Two words.

Break. Free.

Just because you've Mez protection, doesn't mean you're not going to be held/stunned/immob'd etc...

Edit: OK, that was a bit harsh. Yes, I agree toggle knocking needs a bit of balance, maybe drop the duration of stun/sleep, and you could always get a reduction in the chance of the second toggle knock from one power too.

memEXTREMEber?

Some sort of uber member?

Fact is a good controller can overcome Mez protection in a matter of seconds, from range. That means you've no toggles AND you're locked down.

Other fact is, the blaster has to get in to melee and drop all your toggles, sometimes one by one, and to be perfectly honest, you guys should retoggle when something important gets knocked off. The amount of Brutes and Scrappers I've killed because they don't retoggle is silly.

I like the speed. It sounds odd, but I like playing fast, the PD's (and some Monkeys!) PvE incredibly fast, but PvP is a different game. You've got to think on your feet, adapt (especially when there's skilled players to fight against), and generally go all out.

PvP is great because it's against other people, and I don't mean that as an excuse to shout 'omgwtfpwned' and some such, I mean it's less formulaic than fighting critters. If someone knows there build and how the game works, there's a bigger chance of being surprised by them. Being beaten by something new/strange/surprising in PvP makes me improve my own game, to get that bit better, so I can get round the same/similar tactic if it comes up again.

I also like hearing Imaginary shout on TeamSpeak when he dies.

Sounds like a deal.

Hey, Smooth, when's a good time for you? How about the weekend, I think we can do that.

I'll be there for the pentad win!

It's not just those AT's.

Defenders will be high on the list as they're easy kills (mostly), Blasters new to PvP will go down so God damn fast it's not even funny, Controllers will drop a hold or two and then die because people know to bring BF's.

Yes, PvP is a big learning curve, but that's no excuse to make toggle dropping sub standard. Thing is, reducing the chance for one toggle knock will mean that a bad attack chain will mean the Blaster's going down. Hell, without buff's, they're pretty easy to take anyway.

Actually they're very, very good players.

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So, because some sets can't handle certain abilities those abilities should be nerfed? I don't know about you, but I actually prefer boosting innefective powers instead of powers that work properly. Give Dark Armour some inherent resistance to toggle knocking instead for example.

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...which is the same thing as making toggle dropping less effective.

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No, it's not. What Mes is suggesting is that certain toggles (like mez reistance) are harder to drop than others. Toggle knocks will be just as effective, but it'd even the playing fuild as you couldn't hold+toggle knock a scrapper and just violate him quite so easily.

That's different from lowering how effective toggle knocking is accross the board.

Web grenades have quite a hefty -recharge iirc, plus the minus jump will annoy most blasters that kite, and a handfull of good hits will drop a Blaster.

The problem with this debate is that people continually whine (I'm not saying any of you guys, but the US boards are full of people saying toggle knocking is one of the worst ideas ever) without actually thinking that it's down to skill/knowledge to combat said toggle knocking.

I know I can't take down a good scrapper on Extremus or Frozen Electrum, for example, Night always takes me, among a few others (freaking Elude).

Do I think that it should be reigned in? Yes, a bit. Especially as /energy and /elec have sleeps/stuns on their toggle knockers. Maybe reduce the duration, or the chance to drop two toggles?

It's 100% chance to drop one toggle, with decreasing chance for another 'knock'.

I think that's fine, the reason /Elec and /Energy are so prevalent in PvP (besides the damage and self buffs) is because they've more than one power that'll knock toggles properly.

Tanks and Scrappers have a lot of toggles, sure a good /em or /en blaster could take those toggles down in an attack chain or two, but what's stopping said scrappers from using things like web grenades, or, you know, actually hitting hard and fast whilst kiteing? And as for tanks, a lot of those secondaries can hit hard, not to mention there's usefull things like knockback/up, stun etc...

(PS, Ice is the toggle knocking sux in PvP as it's got basically no damage to back it up, nice slows though).