EvilGeko

Yup. That was some good writing there. Also made me wonder if Statesman is a better constructed character than we've given them credit for.



NAW!!!

There's always an element of "in-character" because I'm trying to get into the head of someone who lives in Praetoria. On that basis, if it were ME, I would probably be an undercover Warden like Luke Larsen. I would probably try to talk the Crusaders out of some of their more over the top schemes. But not on the hysterical bases presented here.

Taking this completely objectively, everyone in Praetoria has blood on their hands and a lot of it. I simply do not understand how you all can argue with a straight face that the Responsibility path people could ever be what anyone would call a "hero". I don't think the Crusaders are either just to be clear. They, like most characters in Praetoria are something neither hero nor villain. I would call them 'human' and leave it at that.

EDIT: Just to add, the defense lawyer in me feels the need to defend the Crusaders because I do think the devs presented a fair argument that any of the four paths could be considered justified. But people here seem to reflexively recoil at the extreme violence and cruelty that's on display in the Crusader arcs (while ignoring that the same or worse happens on and off camera on the Loyalist side).

Because he want's loyal subjects to fawn over him and create statutes of him and have posters that say "Our Guardian" on it. I would think a cursory tour of Praetoria would have made that obvious.

A good man would have stepped down once Hamidon is defeated. If his goal was simply to protect humanity, he can do that without running everything. In fact, like George Washington, he would have been celebrated for centuries had he done so.

No, he engineered his ascension to power and couldn't care less about the people so long as they worship him.

There are two instances in game of Wardens working actively to stop the Crusaders. One is Cleopatra working undercover and the other is the Luke Larsen arc. There's no evidence that the Wardens even know about everything the Crusaders do, but there's direct evidence that they are kept in the dark about some things.

You hold the Wardens responsible for everything the Crusaders do whether they know about it or not, but do not hold the Responsibility folks liable for anything Cole and his mad Praetors do even though you're doing it at their behest.

How can you reconcile this because it screams hypocrisy to me?

BULLPOO!

Tyrant allowed cities to burn to serve his agenda. You're just making stuff up. Tyrant does not care about the people of Praetoria. He was ready to let half the City burn to prove a point. His end goal is simply for him to run everything.

I'm not going to argue with what you said above, although I do take issue with that characterization. I ask simply,

What do you do? How do you fight Cole and ensure no one will ever get hurt? Are you saying that it's OK for Cole to remain in power?

What do you mean by fighting? Is the only acceptable fighting against Cole and the Praetors?

I ask again.

If the Resistance is not acceptable to you morally, then are you saying that Cole should simply be left in power? That with all the evil of his regime, it's preferable to a war to shake Cole from power?

I don't understand your reticence. Do you believe that there is a boy scout way to defeat Cole? I mean, sure, I suspect that's the plot of Issue 20, where our heroes, now powered up into Incarnates DO just beat Cole up and save the day without excessive bloodshed. But right now, what other options are there, given what information is available to the people of Praetoria?


(Because, I would note, that out of character, the smartest thing to do at the end of the Praetoria arcs is ask Statesman and his folks to just go in and beat Cole up. Perhaps bring a few hundred Primal heroes with them. But looking at the story chronologically, that option isn't available at level 5 or level 15 where all you know is what your own world is about.)

Let's say you could nuke Praetoria from orbit. You take out everyone but Cole since he can survive a nuclear blast.

You've now eliminated:

Mother - His psychic muscle and the means by which he locates opponents to his regime;

Maurader - His enforcer and most of his Powers division thugs with him;

Duncan - His girlfriend/dominatrix/progeny

Chimera - His master spy and black ops guy

Neuron/Anti-Matter - And these are the big ones, he loses the two guys who's inventions and science make all this possible.

Tyrant is a reasonably smart guy and he's immortal and super, but he can't do it all alone. He loses the capital he has to start all over and without his Lieutenants. That's not going to be easy. At that point the rest of the world would have to fend for itself completely while Cole tries to build up a new power base. And during that time, it's completely foreseeable that many will decide they don't need an emperor. Perhaps even rebuilding the countries that existed prior to Cole.

Low level before you have those procs, it does over twice as much damage and still is an easy part of an attack chain. At high levels, it's DPA is much better and it's still an easy place to put procs.

EDIT: I just did some math on it too. Using every damage proc available to that power and slotting it to the ED soft-cap (1.95) you wind up with a DPS of 46.4 and a DPA of 116.16. Compare that to my proposed version which has a DPS of 44.65 and a DPA of 178.6.

As we know the DPA is much more important at high level, but you lose almost no DPS and this is without recharge slotting. Once you consider recharge slotting, the proposed version pulls ahead with one SOs worth of recharge (.33) where the numbers go to 54.79 for the current version and 54.95 for the proposed.

You're better off no matter how you slice it.

There are no rules in Praetoria about legitimate targets. Next.

Gosh darnit, no they are not powerless. Normal people have always stood up and risen up to defend themselves. The Crusaders are mostly normal people, not super, but they found a way to fight.

The leader of the Resistance, Calvin Scott is just a man. Not a superman, just a man.


I think they're damaged people, but their damage comes from having to do horrific things to survive. The two you mention in particular have reasons for who they are.

The boy scouts are not going to defeat Cole.

Tell that to the ghouls or the seers or the people killed for speaking for their rights. They aren't being kept alive. The first two have their humanity stripped from them, possibly forever. The last are never heard from again, but you all keep ignoring them because it doesn't fit your lunacy that the responsibility path characters who support this nonsense are evil.

Killing a group of people engaged in oppression is neither evil nor unjustified. It's absolutely heroic.

Goodness, please stop with the hyperbole. The Capital City does not equal the whole world no matter how much hysterical screaming.



They protect nothing other than the tyranny of the state. They act as nannies for a dictator. The heroes of Paragon act as deputies of a true law, a law created by the people being governed.

Again, all I can hope is that you're RPing here. Because if you can't see the differences between the United States and Praetoria, then you're deluding yourself.

Agreed. But that's always been my point. You can't look at the Crusaders and scream "Evil Terrorist" unless you're ignoring that the Crusaders are in an armed insurrection. War changes the rules about what it a legitimate target. There is no Geneva Convention here. No "rules of war." And Cole wouldn't follow them anyway.

Like with Japan needed to be shown that they can't win, the people of Praetoria must be shown that the social contract that they made with Cole is false. Cole cannot protect them. Tyranny can NEVER protect you. As you stated regarding the American revolutionaries, had they lost, another revolution would have come along later. There is no legitimacy to the argument that "You can be safe so long as you follow the despot." You won't be because there will always be people who will not countenance living in slavery. Revolution is inevitable, conflict is inevitable.

The Responsibility Loyalist are evil for all the reasons Cole is. They have no right to set themselves up as the nannies to the people. They have no right to choose to for everyone else (to turn that silly argument around) that Cole gets to lead everyone else. Had a government chosen by a free and fair election brought Cole to power (and returned him to power at regular intervals), the perhaps that argument would have force.

At least the Power Loyalist don't feel they have this right, they're just in it for the glory. Selfish, but nowhere near the culpability of the Loyalists.

I think he meant:

Since VEATs did not receive ancillary power pools in Issue 18/Going Rogue; Kheldians should not receive Patron Power Pools.

It does make one wonder what the Circle of Thorns are up too. They were dead before the Hamidon wars and should still be down in Orenbega doing whatever ghosts do. And what about the Carnival of Light? (Or did the retconn them?)

Even if that statistic is correct, what possibly makes you think it's relevant? Tyranny isn't suddenly justified because there are less people. That makes no sense whatsoever.

Told you did I, reckless is she...and now, matters are worse.

Yeah seriously!! I'm trying so hard not to discuss current events in this discussion!

You all cling to a life of slavery so strongly. You see death as the ultimate harm. I do not. We will all die. We're mortal (Cole isn't, but then that's part of the problem).

The life you lead before inevitable death is more important than just being alive. We aren't cockroaches. Life is more than staying alive. I can only hope you all are RPing here and you don't really believe what you're saying. You dishonor the founders of this great nation and their fight for liberty.

The drugs haven't stopped the wardens or the crusaders or the syndicate or the destroyers or even the non-combatant protesters.

Enriche may push the sheeple into being a bit more docile, but they are already half-way there on their own.

The people of Praetoria are not innocent. You can't hide your eyes from tyranny and claim innocence.

Only those who support tyranny my friend.

Resorting to personal attacks again. A pity. Well, it's not like you have any meaningful arguments. I don't blame you. Supporting tyranny is a difficult proposition.

At that point he's in charge of only himself. And his evil will have caused the death of all those people, not anything the revolutionaries did. Dictators cannot be given quarter nor those who are willing to trade liberty for safety.