EvilGeko

That's fair, but in this case, the DE and their defense spanking power predated IOs. And to put words in her mouth, my beloved Queen O' Maths has stated repeatedly that the person proposing the changes has the burden of persuasion (not the burden of proof).

As she has also stated, if all things considered the reward earning rates of defense sets are not heavily impacted by the existence of these NPCs, then at least on one metric of balance everything is groovy. Since defense sets able to soft-cap probably are able to earn rewards at many multiples of the rate of other sets, it seems to me to be a bit unwise to do anything which even marginally increases that.

And sure it wouldn't be broken to change the DE, but as Arcanaville, our dear Incarnate of Maths has stated to many a poster (as the EvilGeko giggled) it doesn't matter whether it "breaks" anything.

My view is that the defense sets (of which several of my 50s are) on the standard difficulty are still able to maul DE missions significantly faster than average even if they are at a relative disadvantage. Arcanaville isn't wrong about anything she stated. She's absolutely right. The DE are not fair to defense sets. I concede the point. But as she has told me many times, that's not enough.

That's why those missions are so full of awesome-sauce. Normally my Fire/Shield can run around at +2/x8 and maybe have to pop a green once in awhile. Try that crap against a mission of DE and they will instruct her about how much that shield really can take.

But that's just compensation for being able to trivially soft-cap don't you think?

SR has had that ability for four years. Almost 4x longer than Regen's heyday with toggle Instant Healing. So you got what's coming to you my dearest Queen O' Maths.

STAY STRONG TIM!! Your bud with the scaly skin has your back!

I don't think this is correct. There's some truth to it, but it's not the whole story. During Issue 19 beta, people told me over and over than the Honoree mission wasn't soloable unless you had a IOed out build and/or were playing a melee AT. I didn't buy it. And thus I and others proceeded to solo that mission with a collection of Defenders, Controllers, MMs and other squishies. Basically anything people said they couldn't do it with.

And I wasn't doing it with an IOed out build. I did it exclusively with SOs on base difficulty (didn't even cheat down to -1). It was mostly by learning the encounter. Paying attention to what the EBs were doing and how the mission spawned the enemies. I figured out a lot about how that mission worked and was able to use that to my advantage so by the 3-4th time it wasn't difficult at all. It wasn't the build, it was strategy, reflexes, all the things you're stating doesn't matter.

But you have to be open to the idea that those things matter.

EDIT: By the way, it was a hell of a lot of fun too!

No offense, but that's a cop-out. I'm arguing the point. And again, I wasn't responding to you. Just because I refuse to accept that the game should be easier doesn't mean I don't consider your point. I don't find what you find fun. You aren't considering MY point. You ignore it.

I believe that the game should have a baseline difficulty that is higher than what you would set it at. You disagree. That's OK, people can disagree.

Not to me. I think that conversion method is a capitulation. I've always said that any solo path should require doing content that is at least as difficult as the trials, but scaled to one player. If that took 2-3 issues to deploy, so be it.

Hopefully never. The Well keeps its own counsel on those it will grant notice and favor.

Haven't you all been saying that we're trying to attract new players? Perhaps they on average have better skills?

Agreed. We need to move quickly to deploy that level of difficulty across the whole game. The Issue 17 arcs are decent on that score. It's a rough patch of easy until the 40s however.

I agree. Let's do that.

I do. They warned us. Nice long beta. My son goes to an elementary school where they teach two grades every year. They have an ungodly amount of homework. It's ranked as the number 1 elementary school in the State of Illinois. (yes, I'm bragging on my boy. So?!) High expectations and ramping up the difficulty creates excellence.


I have the vet rez power and have MoG down to a great recharge. I'm not scared of you.

DON'T LET HER STOP YOU TIM!

I absolutely do. I absolutely reject the notion that any MMORPG should allow its default difficulty to be so easy that anyone can complete it. It creates a ton of problems for the game. There is really only one risk in a MMORPG and it's psychic. It's the risk of defeat. People like to say that it's about the risk of losing time, but I don't even buy that anymore. People play these games for years and it's all to waste time anyway.

Games shouldn't be so hard that only 1% of your playerbase can advance, but by the same token a game shouldn't be so easy that players become bored. I very often read about this game on other sites, and the #1 mark against it is that it becomes boring.

I think the whole game should have a decent level of challenge to all players. Frankly, I find Praetoria just as easy as Paragon from 1-20. But I recognize that there are tasks and missions that press just a bit harder on the player. Not as much as is being stated here. Some of the Vaz missions in Paragon are wickedly hard at low level.

We can agree to disagree on this, but I simply do not believe that there needs to be any changes to the Praetorian content. Yes, it pushes you. I think the answer is PUSH back. I don't expect everyone to agree with that view. But my view is much more mainstream OUT of this game that I think many of you recognize. People keep talking about new players. Well new players might have more of an appetite for risk that you all give them credit for.

I've said it more times than I can count. Adding more NPCs and upping their levels doesn't make the encounter more interesting. Yes, it makes it 'harder' but not in a good way. Not in a way that is memorable.

You shouldn't give me or anyone that much power over you. As I understand it we live about five or six time zones away. Screw EvilGeko! He's a jerk. And that's not some rhetorical flourish. It's me telling you that I am a jerk and that you shouldn't feel the need to avoid the boards because of anything I say.

The folks that were telling me to wait for the endgame, that Going Rogue is great for casual gamers made me feel the same. I didn't retreat though, I continued to press for what I wanted for the game as I did on multiple issues over their years.

I get that you don't like the new content, but again, I do feel strongly that you're not opening yourself up to the possibility that the Incarnate trials aren't for you. This last issue added an arc from Ray Cooling from 20-29. I finally did that in Ouro last weekend. Most boring crap I've ever played. But you know. It wasn't made for me, so I'm not going to complain about it. I'm tired of that kind of content. I like what the devs are doing. So yes, I'm going to argue against you and others when you try to turn it into content that I don't like. Why can't we all have some things we like in the game?

Of course, but by the same token, the devs need to know that not everyone feels the same way as you all do. Typically, I believe the devs actually discuss these things and I'm sure that there are constituencies arguing for your position and for mine in Paragon Studios. I argue as I do because the folks arguing for a vibrant, difficult endgame, need to see that people on the boards support them too. If all the devs get are, "Oh this is too hard." "The game is cheating, stop it." Then they are going to act accordingly. By contrast if they see that there is a substantial number of people who are having a good time, then perhaps they will act to allow BOTH types of playstyles to exist.

I like to argue. As you all know. And look on the bright side. I'm bumping your thread!

If you're tired of fighting with me, then don't respond to me. Listen, Arcanaville and I have had EPIC fights when we've disagreed in the past. Oftentimes only ending when one or the other decides to stop talking.

But know, that I will respond to any thread I see that I disagree with. As I said I'm an unrepentant jerk. I certainly wouldn't allow myself to get angry at anything that jerk EvilGeko says, but only you control your emotions, not I.

The Praetorian encounters aren't too hard for their context and I didn't say anyone wanted an "I Win" button. People are asking for the difficulty to be lowered by lowering, removing or changing the ambushes. Which would make it significantly easier. I do not wish to see that happen. I don't mind being defeated once in awhile. I do mind having content so easy that defeat is barely even possible.

The difficulty slider is not legitimate fix for that. That ups the numbers, not the difficulty. The difficulty is basically a side effect of creating more and higher level enemies. Debuffs, ambushes, interesting encounters are fun difficulty.

Gear has always been a progression metric in MMOs. Incarnates are more of an alternate advancement system than leveling. So far the Alpha slot doesn't have near as much effect on a character than a decent IO build.

Frankly, I'm starting to feel similarly. I haven't put anyone down. Read the quote again. I insult no one. I'm responding to the suggestion that this has anything to do with casual gamers or soloers. Just because someone is a soloer or a casual game doesn't mean they want an easy game. You're reading insult into my vigorous disagreement with that idea.

I was not particularly happy after GR. I felt that the devs had basically ignored our request for an endgame. I was wrong. The devs have come back strong and I feel the need to defend their efforts because I'm more excited about the game than I've been since Inventions. But so much negativity because people are being asked to take tip toes out of their comfort zone.

Praetoria ramps up the difficulty and quickly, but honestly, that's not a bit different than many MMOs. I've played MMOs that by level ten you run smack dab into a wall where you really have to learn. Sure that's not what CoH is all about, but neither then is Praetorian anywhere near that difficult. I've said it before. So many times, folks complain but when you drill down on their tactics you see deficits there that can correct the problem.

It's more difficult that comparable content in Paragon or the Rogue Isles, yes. It is not difficult however. I've seen similar ambush style encounters in multiple MMORPGs. MMORPGs that tend to be significantly harder on average than CoH. As I argued during beta, high expectations force you to improve.

Our devs are TIGER MOMS!

Brutes are pretty easy mode there as well.

A little frustration is good.

STAY STRONG TIM!!

Your bud with the scaly skin has your back!

I soloed through Praetoria with multiple squishies. What does that have to do with anything?

Didn't say you did. I don't recall responding to your posts.

Praetoria isn't difficult. It teaches you QUICKLY to stay on your toes. +0/x1 shouldn't be a snoozefest. The only quarrel I have about Praetoria is that it does make the slowest part of the game slower. The fitness changes help with that. There are other things I would do. Lowering the difficulty isn't one of them.

Please pass along that some of us relish the added difficulty of the Praetorian content and greatly wish that it would be extended to the upper levels.

My teams often sit the team leader next to LG in the first mission. You save at least 10-15 seconds over the Self-Destruct strategy!

See e.g. Meridian 59, Ultima Online, Everquest.

I agree. Just say no to easymode.

Where is the cut-off between "encouraging teaming" and "forced teaming?"

Given all the reports of 30 min. or less Kahn's this week, not buying that excuse. Not all are powergamer teams either. The powergamer teams are beating 20 min.

Serious question. Do you think they should just remove the second option? Would some option that's doable solo be better than no option. I'm not trying to set up a false dilemma. I recognize that the devs have set the bar very, very high. Perhaps too high. But assuming they aren't willing to budge, do you truly believe that this is worse than nothing?

Good luck with that. As has been explained over and over again, that wouldn't be a particularly ideal balance point. It would lead to devaluing the WST and over-rewarding team based players.