EvilGeko

With Interface, I would agree with you to an extent. There is a substantial step up in power there.


Come on Dispari, I mentioned that very instance (weak hardware) in my post. This is what I'm talking about when I'm asking folks to be reasonable. I didn't call anyone losers, you did. Respond to what I write, not how you feel about what I write.

As I've said, this is the group that I honestly don't care one bit about. It's like with PvP. You want the rewards you do the content. If you're sitting on a Core i7 and ATI 6970 card, then you can do the trials, you just don't want to. That's cool, but then don't complain you can't get the shinies.

It's not, and again I didn't say that. I said, continually quoting that 10,070 number is disingenuous for the reasons I stated. There's a middle ground which you continuously ignore because it makes your point much weaker.

This endgame system is so unlike the endgame raiding of other games it's hard to imagine that you've ever actually raided in other games.

I've played games where you are expected to wipe repeatedly, dozens of times or more in service of learning an encounter. Think about that. A raid where 24-25 people should expect to spend hours of game time dying repeatedly before they have a shot at getting any reward at all. Then consider that right after that, you move on to the next named and repeat the process. A raid dungeon that can take months of failure before the raid force is geared and skilled enough to complete it regularly.

And we're not talking about a pick-up group. We're talking about a well crafted team where everyone knows each other, knows their role, and are using voice programs like Ventrilo or Teamspeak to communicate. We're talking about groups that have core groups of their best players who are the only ones allowed to even go on the raids of the new bosses. Other players are not allowed in until the guild has the boss on farm status.

And then, after all that, the raid bosses drop perhaps 2-5 pieces of gear for a raid of 24-25. Maybe a token that you can trade 40-50 of for a piece of consolation gear. Where we have people at T4 in all slots within a week, you looking at months, sometimes a year of raiding just to get your main team geared up. Then an expansion hits and you start all over again.

That's what Positron was trying to avoid, and gosh darnit, he did a magnificent job in doing so.

Conservatively it takes 50 shards to unlock a slot. Times 4 that's 200 shards. To slot a common takes 60 shards; an uncommon another 100. So to get uncommons in each slot takes 840 shards. Or about three months if you're converting every day (assuming you aren't sitting on any shards right now). Those uncommons get you the vast majority of the benefits of the four slots. You get a very strong nuke, good debuff, nice buff and a couple of pets. All the rares/very rares get you is bigger numbers.

For someone who refuses to EVER run a trial, that's not even nearly unreasonable to me.

You all have accused me of all kinds of horribles, but really don't you see how unreasonable your position is? Sure the devs picked a system that is grindy to excess. I'm not happy about their choice of a conversion path. I think it would have been better and more honest just to not have such a path. When I first saw these numbers, I immediately foresaw exactly the complaining that has ensued. I don't even think you all are wrong in your essential point.

But at the same time, continually quoting that 10,070 number is just as disingenuous to me. The trials have such a low time commitment that the only reasons I will acknowledge that someone could not ever do a trial would be the population on their server and their hardware. Both are regrettable, but also fixable by the player. When we add just one BAF to our poor shard converter we remove a minimum of 56 shards from the total as well as get free iXP. If one were lucky (as I was in earning a very rare on my first successful trial) you could remove hundreds from the total.

Your argument makes an assumption of an extreme case. A person who never can complete a trial. When you make a more reasonable assumption, say one Lambda and BAF in a week, then the time to complete drops precipitously.

This! A thousand times this!!

False. PUG raids completing your content on the first day is unheard of in other games. I assure you that in many other games if raids as accessible as BAF or Lambda went live, there would be howling and denunciations from the hardcore crowd.

lol

I've found on my Cold/Ice that she tends to do pretty well, but I do toss around my rain powers liberally even when buffing.

I'll use Arcanaville's standard reply. Because I'm not advocating a change. You bear the burden of showing that the devs' chosen path is in error. You haven't. You've shown that it takes a long time to do this solo. I agree with you. The design question you haven't shown is that it taking as long as it does is a bad idea.

I actually agree with you it's a bad idea. I think it takes entirely too long to do this solo compared to the trials. I wish the devs would create a hard, content based solo path that's still slower but not punitively so. But really, that's just my opinion about proper design.

The devs could easily feel that it's so important to create incentives to do the trials, at least initially, that they are going to maintain a period of de facto exclusivity in the trials. That may be one issue or five. Who knows? But if you're going to argue that the non-trial path should be much quicker, then I think its incumbent to prove:

1) Not having a faster path puts non-trial runners at a material disadvantage over those who run trials;
2) That such material disadvantage runs is hurtful to the game in some way that the devs should change their mind.

As to the first point. I don't think non-trial runners are put at a material disadvantage. I don't think the difference between an uncommon and a rare is large enough that a person who has one or the other is significantly weaker. I think your choice of primary/secondary, your build choices and your IO choices still make a MUCH bigger difference in overall power.

As to the second point, I'm not sure that anyone has shown any real harm to the game from some folks being effectively shut out of these rewards. Has it caused an exodus from the game? I don't know honestly, but the servers seem pretty busy to me. Servers that I rarely see in the yellow have been over the last week.

As compared to hard TFs, I don't see even a hint of elitism. Other than wanting one actual tank on the trials and a few controllers for certain parts, people seem to be pretty open to different teammates. Needing so many people seems to push folks into being more open with their selections.

So, it seems to me that the argument, "I wants the precious." While a valid and not unreasonable argument, isn't sufficient by itself to generate changes.

That's what I was thinking honestly. For example, handling the adds during the Nightstar/Siege fights might wind up being more rewarding.

I thought it was random too, and I still think that's likely, but that quote really has me curious.

I understand and agree with your point to a certain extent. But it's more nuanced than that. Persons who refuse for whatever reason to engage in the trials don't need to be treated as second class citizens, but they also won't really be able to leverage the additional power rares give you.

For example, I was doing a tip mission today and much of the power I gained from the Incarnate abilities this week were a complete waste. I herded up a nice pack of DE mobs and slapped a judgment on them. Of course, it wasted them. BUT, the damage was so beyond their number of HP and that's an uncommon Ion. A rare or very rare wouldn't have done any better.

I get the idea of wanting the shinies because you want the shinies. But at a certain point, there's really nothing the game is throwing at a solo character where a rare is that much better than an uncommon. But as we know the time differential between those two is rather high and higher still between a rare and an ultra-rare.

Second Measure's February Letter

I've been wondering why I seem to be particularly lucky on these trials. I've gotten multiple rares and very rares and only a couple of commons and ONE uncommon. Now I'm wondering if I was lucky at all. Is there something to this bit above. Can you guarantee yourself a rare?

I'm interesting in hearing from other folks' experiences. I'm don't have it in me to leech a trial just to test the theory.

OK, but let's unpack that. The Alpha slot debutted in Issue 19 and included content that more or less requires that you have an Alpha power slotted. Now, issue 20 debuts and the progression continues. So, of course, you must need the Alpha in order to do the new trials? Well, hmmm, it seems you don't. In fact, you can earn the Alpha through the new content.

So it really doesn't seem wise to assume that you'll need the new slots in order to move forward in the system. But let's say it does. When the new trials recently announced are released is it your plan to grind them out until you're not having fun playing anymore as well? At that point then, what's the purpose in playing? Grinding for digital shinies doesn't sound like fun to me. You should play to have fun. If you take your time, don't make it feel like an interminable grind, then maybe you won't be as effective as you could be when new trials come out. But as we see with BAF and Lambda, it doesn't take a very long time to catch up. So maybe if you do 3-6 trials a week instead of ten in one day, you'll wind up in the same place you would have anyway.

Just a thought. Ultimately, no one can define your goals and desires but you. But what you're describing seems like work to me and I don't pay to work.

Why do you need the abilities ASAP? The trials can obviously be done without them. Other content is not designed with them in mind. Why can't you just take your time, play a BAF or Lambda when you feel like it. Why are you putting the pressure on yourself to earn these abilities right away?

If you take your time and just have fun, the abilities will come when they come. It's something to work for. It's the chase that's important.

It sounds like we have the same definition of unrealistic. I don't think it's realistic either to solo grind for these abilities. Our difference of opinion is that I don't care a bit for those who claim to not be able to do the trials. I have no concern whatsoever for those who refuse because of playstyle choice.

You didn't read my post did you? Because I said the exact opposite.

While I have many issues with Sam's ideas, I don't think the sarcasm expressed above is anywhere near his real opinion on the matter.

So? Very rares should not be seen as a realistic goal for someone who refuses to engage in group content. It's possible, but unrealistic.

So?

The hardcore soloist self-selects themselves out of this content. There have been people this week who have mapserved often, lagged considerably, but kept coming back for more because they liked the trials or wanted the shinies. People that don't, don't. I don't begrudge them not liking the trials, but this week even people who played a few trials could have two slots unlocked and have stuff in those slots.

It's irrelevant whether it takes 2 or 25 years to get to very rares via solo grinding of shards. Because that's plainly not intended to be the means to do it. It's hyperbole to even mention that because it's not an either or thing. The shard conversion path should be a supplement and a partner to doing the trials, doing the WST, etc. If the devs eventually (and I think they should) add a solo option, then there will be even more options for folks. That's what happened with Inventions. It took awhile though.

See the thing I quarrel with in that view is that Inventions were and probably still are substantially more important to being on "top of the game." At rare Destiny and Lore and Uncommon Interface and Judgment, I still very much feel that my Invention build is more important. Alpha (which is not gated by the trials in any way) is really the only significant advancement IMO in the PvE field.

Alpha provides the global level shift. That's a HUGE benefit notwithstanding the HUGE benefit from the enhancement Alpha provides. Alpha is gated by the WST, but that's so mild a gate as to be inconsequential in my opinion. Hard-core soloers need to understand that the entire game will not revolve around that playstyle. This is a MMORPG, and every MMORPG on the market rewards teaming.

I did an ITF over the weekend and really, while its fun to throw off a Judgment or power through because of Destiny, I don't find the Incarnate abilities to be a game-changer in the same way as having a soft-cap build is. It's more shiny to add on to the awesome, but if folks have their hang-ups they really need to deal with them.

There's no problem in asking for an alternative. But suggesting, as Sam has, that the original implementation was invalid and should not have exist is where it goes over the line. Like with Inventions, it's entirely forseeable that within a few issues the devs will add more means of earning Incarnate abilities.

It's only worth anything if you fill your T4 slots? This is the essential hyperbole which bothers me so much about this view. You get a substantial boost from even the common abilities in the upper tiers. The uncommons and rares get you the majority of the benefit possible. The T4s are intended to be very long term goal. Sure some folks who are very lucky or who run the trials constantly will get them quicker, but that doesn't mean they are anywhere near necessary.

As an analogy, I have several characters who don't have a single purple IO or PvP IO. They're still extremely powerful characters and I have no intention of getting them purples. Likewise, I only want T4 in Interface and Destiny. And I'm more than happy to be patient while getting them.

Why do you think he hates Issue 20 so much?

I keep missing these devs putting a gun to my head to make me play.

It's been almost too nice to me. I have a couple of rares I can't use. And the very first thing I got was a very rare! Lady loot rewards faith!

Can't sell enhancers or recipes there.