EvilGeko
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Posts
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Quote:What's stopping me (general 'me') in having pride is that the was no need to earn it.Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
What is stopping you (general 'you') from having pride in getting it anyway? Why is it suddenly 'less' meaningful just because other people can buy things? That just means they have less time/inclination to grind. You can still do it your way and take pride in doing so. No one is suggesting taking away alternatives.
I don't know how else to explain this to you. Some people, and I'm one of them, want to be REQUIRED to earn things in the game. Once you remove the requirement, there is no pride of doing the task. The task becomes meaningless. Tenzhi and others suggest that is because I wish for others not to have it. That's almost the opposite of how I feel. I actually want ALL players to earn the Roman pieces. But I want them to earn them.
To give you an analogy that many people can relate to. In high school they award letters to adorn your school jacket to athletes and others who do certain school activities (like band). The pride in wearing that letter when I was in high school was that I earned it. If they just allowed me to buy the letter as a freshman, there would be no pride in having the letter. It's just something I bought. Even if I could still earn one for being on a sport. The earning would be worthless to me at that point.
This is completely divorced from anyone else. I don't care how many other people earned a letter. In fact, at the boys school I started high school at, you were all but required to be on a sport and so by junior year almost everyone had a letter anyway. But each of us took pride in having it, because it was something we HAD to earn. And we were proud of our fellows and admired their wearing of the school letter because we knew they earned it as well. -
Quote:I fear you never will understand. The necessity of earning a thing is a critical element in the pride of having it. If the devs allow you to buy a reward, then the achievement is lost. If you care nothing for achievement I can see how you might believe how you do.Originally Posted by Tenzhi
If it was merely about there being value in earning the achievement, it wouldn't matter if other people "earned" it or not. The value in earning it yourself would be the same. Unless that value hinges on other people not having it who haven't "earned" it. In which case my estimation of your stance isn't a caricature at all.
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Quote:No, that's your caricature of my position. I truly don't care how many people have the Roman or other costume pieces. I gain no psychic joy from seeing people not have the pieces. I do however, believe that there is value in achievement. In earning things. I would not be for people being able to auto-level to 50, or buying PvP Inventions, or getting accolades without earning them either.Originally Posted by Tenzhi
You've basically been talking about being unable to feel good about one's self without being able to feel like one is better than someone else. To point out that such an ideology is elitist hardly demonizes it.
Again, you join the two concepts in your mind in an attempt to discredit my position. It cannot be that I have any reasonable motives, no, I must be an evil elitist who is out to destroy other's fun.
Believe whatever you wish. You must forget that the developers created the system you are trying to destroy. And I don't think you get very far assuming that they must be elitists out to destroy player's fun. -
Quote:Agreed. Aaron Thiery berates the heros for ignoring things 'beneath their notice' I so wanted to tell him, "Naw man, the joker wouldn't give me the mission!"Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
I still think arcs should exemplar you if you are 'too high'.
Not to mention it being stupid that 'Oh, you're too powerful for this'. Who's to say that a Hero wouldn't pause to help with any situation? Or that a Villain would kick back with a nice bit of easy bullying, extortion and general head-cracking?
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Quote:At least Sam is honest. He doesn't care about anyone else's game. One of these days he might recognize he's not playing a single-player game though.Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Wrong guy to ask, Bill. I don't give a toss about badges. Sell them, take them out of the game, strip them of all players and make us have to reearn them, it doesn't impact me in the slightest. It's like asking me if I'm OK with people in China not having to pay garbage tax. Um... Yes? No? Pick an answer, it's all the same by me.
I don't care how many people win the Roman costume pieces. Just so long as they win them.Quote:As far as I'm concerned, everybody wins. Other than people who want me to specifically NOT have the costume pieces in question, of course. -
Quote:Yes, I guess if you consider the dictionary a 'political context'.Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Actually, it is. Your definition is also a definition of elitist. I suspect yours is most often used in a political context.
Of course, it's clear that your cause is lost if you must demonize the opposition. But arguing for an absolutist position is often a lost cause.
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Quote:Considering that I don't feel it is much of a chore, no. I don't think one needs to be an 'elite' player to run an ITF. I believe this whole 'elitist' tangent is an attempt by you folks to discredit my position. My position is fairly narrow. I believe that having a very small number of costume pieces earned as rewards is OK so long as the vast majority of pieces are available at level 1. I support the Roman pieces, the Incarnate pieces, and the various weapon unlocks.Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven
You want players to be unable to use the costume set prior to level 35, even though it might fit the theme of their character. I thought this was obviously elitist.
It is clear that the contrary position is an absolutist position. You wish to remove now and forever, the concept of using costume pieces as rewards for content. I think that's drastic. It's certainly no where near an "obvious" position as Sam quips considering there's a whole game out there now which makes earning costume pieces a goal.
Nearly every place that's actually tried to make Socialism work has found itself led by a elite, either of privilege or cronyism. The elite of a society will find ways to make themselves the rulers because they have the skill and desire. I have yet to see any non-theoretical political system that doesn't find itself led by an elite class eventually.Quote:I'm not an elitist, I'm a Socialist. Therefore, for me to get into the myriad of reasons why I think elitism is wrong would not only spin this thread into a far off tangent, it would also probably get it locked. So... I won't go there!
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Quote:Now, then what would you say to Beef-Cake who has played hard to earn as many badges as he did, helped support a website to give aid to other players in badge hunting, and greatly enjoys the chase and competitive aspect of badges?Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Why not? If people really want to buy badges, more power to 'em.
Except for pre-requisite badges for Accolades. Because those have actual in-game effects on game-play, rather than being purely vanity items.
I think that's reasonable?
You are willing to make all that achievement meaningless. To wear some clothes at level 1? -
Quote:Visual achievement has been a pillar of RPGs since Dungeons & Dragons. Even then, when you had to use your imagination, you were very proud to receive your +5 Holy Sword of Demon Slaying or whatever because it was shiny and looked better than the tin sword you used at level 1.Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Costumes as achievements that lock away the costume from Level 1 is contradictory to a role-playing genre.
The Invention pieces are a good cautionary tale. At this point you've devalued the invention pieces so much that they are 'trash' drops. You need no sugar daddy. I was able to earn the money for insect wings on a newbie character before she made level 3 (obviously leaving the tutorial at level 2). Now that said, I actually see the conceptual argument for body pieces like wings moreso than clothes like the Roman pieces.Quote:After all, that's the case with the wing and boot Recipes (although their achievement value was greatly diminished with the increase in drop rate). Anyone can sugar daddy them to their brand new Level 1 toons. -
Quote:No, that's actually not what the word elitist means. An Elitist is someone who favors rule by an elite. I will cop to the idea that I do not wish to be ruled by the under-educated masses, which is why I'm a strong proponent of representative democracy and do not believe in most systems of direct democracy like those practiced in California and elsewhere.Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Elitists, by their very nature, must stand on the backs of others. It's quite good to seek to better one's self, it's quite the opposite to require other people to be lessor in order to validate one's self. The latter is the elitist.
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Quote:What's elitist about wanting people to actually have to play the game to earn its rewards?Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Just getting the elitism out into the open.
Not that I'm not elitist. I'll cop to that. But what of it. What's inherently illegitimate about being elitist? -
Quote:By making it available on the market, the achievement in earning it becomes meaningless. If you don't have to earn the reward, then it ceases to be a reward. I offer that there is nothing sinister or illegitimate about not wanting people who haven't earned a reward to be able to use it.Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven
Tell me where I said that I want the ITF to not unlock the Roman costume bits, if it is then made available on the market.
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Quote:I fully understand your desire to have your character concept realized from level 1. I basically ignore the style collecting in that other game based on the DC Universe. Most of my characters still use the costume that they left the tutorial in. So I hear you. I truly do.Originally Posted by Zombie Man
No, you don't understand then my argument. It's more than just 'like'. It's the in-game aspect of creating a 'character'. A character which has a certain persona from the beginning of their supers career. I don't want a character that, half-way through their career, suddenly becomes a gladiator personality because he visited this game's version of ancient Rome. I want to make a gladiator who starts on a supers career. The game doesn't allow that because of the level gated costuming.
I'm not against rewards locked behind level-gated content. I don't demand to be able to get a Shivan temp pet at level 1. I don't demand to have all the accolade powers at level 1. It is part of the supers genre that people level up in power over their career. It is not part of the genre that no one can dress like a gladiator unless your *this* powerful. That's why the level locks for the capes and aura were universally derided and are now gone.
But Zombie, can you not see how absolutist your position is? You're saying that NO costume piece should ever be used as a reward. I just don't think that's particularly reasonable.
I can make a gladiator just fine in the character creator. Just did in fact. Will it be perfect to you? Perhaps not. But will it realize the character's concept? Yes. -
Quote:But see, you're trying to eliminate a choice for one category. You're not trying to enhance choice, you're trying to supplant one form of choice for another.Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven
This is so funny, because that is exactly what I've been trying to tell you and Evil Gecko. Giving the players more choice will always appeal to a great many different types of them, and not just one. Allowing them to either get costume bits via the market or by unlocking them from inside the game is giving them more choice. More choice is good!
So far, players such as yourself and EG represent a single type.
Which must mean, of course, that you're muttering the words "to me" after you say the word "appeals". -
Quote:Come on now, let's try to keep this honest. Being able to purchase your way out of the task is not being required to do the task.Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Unless you paid for the pieces, you would still be required to do the task. So it must not simply be doing the task to earn the reward that makes the achievement meaningful.
Now this is true. But what of it? I would be quite annoyed if my college just started selling degrees as well. What is problematic about believing that people should earn what they want. The devs set forth a path to earn certain costume pieces. It's part of the game. I do not wish for people to be able to circumvent the game just because they want to.Quote:It follows that what makes it meaningful to you, therefore, isn't doing the task to get the reward, but doing the task to get the reward that other people who didn't do the task don't have.
You know, what I find so completely fascinating about this argument is that you all couldn't get away with it almost anywhere else. People feel I'm being unkind, but on many other game's boards, the idea that you should be able to buy rewards that are attached to content is considered per se unreasonable. -
Quote:How? I understand and even emphasize with your argument. I just don't agree with it. Why do you feel the need to make this personal?Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Pot, meet kettle.
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Quote:We know that one of the things that people enjoy about doing a task is the reward at the end. Remove all rewards from something and people will do something that does give them such a reward.Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven
I covered this in my response to Evil Gecko. If that content can't stand up on its own without the need to lure players in with unlockable shinies, then it's that content that needs to be changed.
Developers lure people towards all sorts of behavior via rewards like exp, badges, IOs, HOs, and yes costumes. This design is a foundation of MMORPGs. To suggest that it is invalid is to suggest that MMORPGs as a genre is the problem. Some folks do believe that, I'll note. But many of them recognize that they could just be playing something else.
There are thousands of costumes available from level 1 on. There are a handful unlockable as rewards. You wish to take EVERYTHING for your side, and then accuse us of disdain for others. I'll ask again, you sure you're not projecting a bit of that...what's the term you used, "butt-hurt".Quote:Really, why are the concerns of these "achiever" types any more important than the ones who "want it now"? Even the names you use for these two types of players reveals your reverence for one and your disdain for the other. Why are these so-called "achievers" that you talk about so irate over the very idea of being able to buy goodies they had to "earn"? Sounds like a lot of butt-hurt to me, seriously.
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Quote:No, you do it by ignoring the other person's argument altogether. Presumably you're doing this because you don't understand how I could possibly disagree with you. That's unfortunate. But disagree with you I do.Originally Posted by Zombie Man
No Memphis Bill and Evil Gecko, *your* arguments are invalid and specious.
There. I win the argument because I labeled your argument as wrong. That's how you win debates, right?
It's simple. I recognize that YOU do not like have ANY costumes gated behind content. I do not believe you're a bad person for believing that. I don't think your position is unreasonable.
What I find silly and specious is the argument that your belief is somehow inherently more legitimate than the opposite view. I don't think having all or even most costumes as rewards is a good idea. But I think having a few pieces here and there makes the game more interesting and fun. You all wish to take that away, by circumventing that achievement. Again I don't fault you for that belief, but I do think you all are being quite unreasonable not to recognize that reasonable people can disagree. And furthermore that they can disagree for rational reasons, even if you can't understand them yourself. -
Quote:That makes sense. What if you did something like they did with Peacebringers.Originally Posted by Werner
It appears that I'm in the minority of the posters, but I don't like the idea of -resist or -defense or DoT or a berserk fury that builds or anything else that builds up over time. I think what distinguishes Broad Sword right now, and only barely, is that it had good burst damage. I don't mean good damage AFTER five or ten or fifteen seconds, I mean hit Build Up, hit someone with Head Splitter and Disembowel, and see some huge orange numbers. Replacing Build Up with an effect that actually has to build up over time makes Broad Sword LESS of a burst damage set, not more, even if its damage peaks higher than Katana's before dropping back down again. Now it seems to have NO advantage. Its slowly building build up keeps it from doing as much damage as Katana in short fights, and Katana's superior DPS keeps it ahead in long fights. Perhaps there's some tail end of medium-length fights where Broad Sword might be slightly ahead, but *yawn*, boring. I mean woo, I get to do slightly better damage during the clean up phase of a fight, when the Tanker has already decided everyone is OK and is running to get control of the next group.
If we're going to have a damage effect that changes over time, I'd want it going in the opposite direction, with monstrous damage from the first hit decaying over time. THAT would distinguish it from every other Build Up or Fury effect, and keep the set what it already is - a burst damage, smashy set. Basically, I want it to slap Katana around for ten seconds, and then for Katana's Superior DPS to pull ahead maybe around twenty seconds. For short fights or wiping out a critical target, you want Broad Sword. For long fights, you want Katana.
Now, given that the DPS is already fairly close, for them to pull even at around the 20 second mark doesn't leave much room for a super Build Up effect. I'm even OK with them nerfing attack DPA to give us something exceptional on the burst damage front.
Change BS's build up to 30 second duration. Then break up the buffs like this (assuming Scrapper mods):
150% damage; Arcana's Smashing proc for ten seconds;
50% damage; Arcana's Smashing proc for ten seconds;
Arcana's Smashing proc for the remaining ten seconds. -
Quote:Yes, you are. You are suggesting removing the requirement that people do a specific task for a specific costume piece reward.Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
No one is suggesting removing anything. The in-game unlocks, as they have for Capes, Auras and VG armour/weapons, are still there.
Right now the requirement makes the achievement meaningful. You wish to eliminate that. I understand why. You don't like doing what is required. I understand that. I don't necessarily like doing some tasks in the game myself. But I don't see it as a reasonable request to ask to be able to purchase my way out of everything I don't like. -
Quote:No you don't see that if you are given the option to circumvent the task, the achievement in the task becomes meaningless. If you truly love the piece that much, then do the task.Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
And all of that is entirely subjective. For me, personally, fighting 100 Fake Nems or 200 Overseers doesn't feel like a reward. It doesn't even feel fun! In fact, it feels like a bloody awful grind that I hate with a passion!
But certain characters simply do not look right without certain parts, and I have no other options. So I have tough out the grind for the sake of continued and future fun.
People who see it as a reward HAVE their option. Those of us who see it as a godawful grind do NOT have any other option. It's as simple as that.
I hate grinding 100 Fake Nemesis too, but I do it for every character because I want the Freedom Phalanx Reserve Member. -
Quote:Sure you can. You just can't use a few specific pieces. There are many ways available at level 1 to make Roman era characters. Likewise, the Mutant Pack could easily help one create a Rularuu inspired costume.Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Secondly, some of those unlocks: Roman and Rularuu come late in the game. So... really? At level 35 or 40 you then suddenly become Romanesque in your costuming and theme? Or suddenly become Rularific? We can't make a gladiator character at Level 1?
This argument is specious. The options exist, you just want this particular shiny. -
Quote:Agree with Bill. I understand that many folks cannot see the validity in this argument. You do not believe that the achievement is of any import, so you don't feel that it is problematic to remove it. That's a reasonable opinion to have, but folks should realize that the contrary argument is no less valid.Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
For some people, the fun in having the reward is in *earning* it. It's not the reward making the content worthwhile, it's the other way around - the reward actually *feeling like a reward.*
Having the exact same thing available to just be purchased... yes, it *does* detract from it a bit for those people. Which is why I suggest a compromise "Have a Roman set that's a bit plainer or otherwise different in the store, with an ITF-Roman set available for unlock." -
Quote:"I don't like this idea," is no less compelling an argument than, "I don't want to do the task required for the reward." Each is a statement of preference. In fact, the "I don't like this idea" inherently has more weight because it represents the status quo.Originally Posted by OminousVoice
Wait whaaa...? I've never heard of such an occurrence. Tell me more.
Back on topic, whilst "I don't like it." is a valid argument, it's not a compelling one. I'm not particularly convinced of the "Achievement" argument either. Players, and people in general, have two valuable resources which they try to spend carefully; Time and money. As it stands now, to unlock the Roman gear (or any other gated costume parts) requires time. Time to grind to 35, run the Midnighter missions and finally the ITF. Should the gear be available in the store then players have the option of saving time and spending money. Either way they'll be spending one of their valuable resources.
That being said however, the idea of having a generic Roman set in the store while keeping the Cimeroran set ITF gated is a decent compromise which I have no problem with.
I've suggested a lot of changes, many of which have come to pass. I always understand that I maintain the burden of showing how what I'm suggesting is a net positive. Here, all I'm seeing is a number of folks claiming that it is an inconvenience to be required to play the game for its rewards. -
Quote:What's disingenuous about the belief that something that has been heretofore an achievement should stay such.Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven
I have no problem with you disagreeing. But I find your reasons flawed, and your offered reasoning a bit disingenuous.
Empath is a badge, Advisor is a badge. Both rewards which have no affect on combat. No slippery slope.Quote:Actually, yes it was. You tried to use scare tactics ("...so should we start selling Empath? Or Advisor?"), to imply that once the devs start down this path of selling goodies on the new market that were once only available by doing certain content within the game, then sooner or later they will start doing that with everything in the game.
This is not a solo game. This is a game with certain goals and achievements. Once you take a reward and remove the achievement from it, you have lessened the game for everyone else.Quote:Aside from the ridiculous notion that selling all the game has to offer on the new market is somehow "bad", just how is what someone else does in this game going to hurt you at all? Why would anyone care what anyone else did in this game? Will they be perpetually kill-stealing from you if they do this? Will they be pulling Giant Monsters and Arch-Villains to your low level characters all the time? Will they sneak into your house at night and replace the game client with Hello Kitty Adventures? Please give me a better reason for not liking this idea other than "I don't like it", if you're going to continue on with such foolishness.
On a more concrete basis, some people do the ITF for the merits, some do it for badges, some do it for costume pieces. If people can just buy one of the rewards then that's some non-zero number of people who will no longer wish to run the content. If that ever affects my or anyone else's recruiting efforts for an ITF, then it affects me.
This is the fallacy of your argument. This is a persistent online game. Player actions affect each other. I know for a fact that some people no longer see much need to run the RWZ raid because they have all the costume pieces. That makes it that much harder to earn those pieces.
I do.Quote:I don't know about you, but I don't go sticking my nose into other peoples' business. If they want to use tickets to buy a costume set so they can use it at level one, then good for them! The ITF is still there. I can still unlock the Roman costume bits by playing it, if I want to do that. Who cares if someone else got it some other way?
Are you projecting? I've found your vacuous arguments quite entertaining.Quote:Well, I'm certainly glad I have you around to tell me what is and what is not an opinion around here. Perhaps you should take the MST3K Mantra, replace the word "show" with "video game", and repeat it to yourself over and over while you try to calm down. Please, for your own sake. You'll live longer, I guarantee it!
In the meantime, I will continue to give your opinion on the subject the kind of response I feel it duly deserves. Thank you!