EvilGeko

I don't disagree with that. But I also responded in PM as this is a bit off-topic. I don't agree however that a similar situation doesn't exist between brutes and Scrappers.

I agree. That's not fair. Well, the effects of the damage boost are, but Shield Charge not fully benefiting from Fury does not.

I have more level 50 Brutes than Scrappers BTW. I'm not biased in favor of either AT.



Why don't they?

I think Stalkers and Scrappers are pretty close in damage potential, so much so that I don't perceive a difference on average. I also don't see a major survivability differential either around the average. I think it completely sucks that certain sets like Regen, Will, Ice and other sets with Dull Pain clones don't get the full benefit of those powers and I would change that. But on the whole, I have not found Stalkers to be significantly weaker defensively than Scrappers.

You just reiterated my point. You were the one that compared Spines to Broadsword. As I stated, that's plainly a worthless comparison because as an AoE focused set, its differences in DPA are explainable by other advantages.

This is why I'm using Katana as a comparator.

If balance in a game like this means anything it means that when someone chooses a power, a class, an archetype, etc. that they will not in all cases be either superior or inferior to other like choices.

Of course, Spines has lower DPA than Broadsword. Spines is also attacking in AoE every other second. The list you made of Broadsword's advantages over Spines is correct. No argument. But let's compare Katana and Broadsword:

Broadsword has:

Larger per attack damage

Katana has:

Better recharge;
Faster animations; these two lead to

Better DPS;
Better Burst damage; and
Better abilities to leverage procs.

Broadsword and Katana are not in balance. If Katana is a balanced set, and I would opine that it is, the Broadsword MUST be underpowered. Now, as I said in the OP, it's not by a lot and there really doesn't need to be a major buff here. But Broadsword is at a material disadvantage to Katana. This is a fact. That's not fair to those who select Broadsword and those who selected Broadsword long ago.

I'm not sure how long you've played, but when the game first launched, there was NO mechanical difference between Katana and Broadsword. IIRC they even had the exact same names for their powers. This was changes so that there was more than an aesthetic difference between the sets. But when they did that, they introduced a mechanical advantage to Katana. When they added proc damage via Inventions, they made it worse. This is not a statement of my opinion. This can and has been shown.

Your argument seems to be Broadsword is fun, so it needs no buff. That's a legitimate argument to make, but does not answer the charge I made.

But again, I thank you for your arguments. Debate keeps issues alive.

No believe it or not. Some enemies are weak to smashing or lethal while being strong against the other. The most prevalent example being the Devouring Earth.

http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Devouring_Earth

All the things Spines has that BS doesn't:

A ranged ST attack
Slow + Toxic + recharge debuff in all attacks
A Damage Aura (Did you really, truly try to compare Quills to a standard attack?)
A 15ft radius AoE
A ranged Cone

Certainly there are other sets like Axe that could use a pass, but the structure and power order of Katana and BS are nearly identical. But the devs did not ensure that BSs damage made up for its much slower animations. Comparing the DPA of an AoE focused set to BS is irrelevant. It's comparing apples and oranges.

But I must thank you for your arguments, for they have keep the discussion lively.

The burst stat is best encapsulated in Damage per Activation. And Katana smokes BS in that.

I look at it like this. Headsplitter delivers about 3 damage scale for 2.33 seconds of animation.

Golden Dragonfly + Gamber's Cut delivers 3.5 damage for 2.5 seconds. While at the same time being able to deliver two chances at procs, crits, etc.

Zombie that's not what you said. This is what you said verbatim:


The underlined is the only qualifier you used in that post. That qualifier limited the timeframe to pre-Issue 19. That qualified limited the power level to ONLY pre-Incarnates.

Now YOU HAVE CHANGED THE SCENARIO. In this way:

You did not say that in your post above. You pushed the time frame from Pre-Issue 19, to early Issue 12. Issue 12 launched on May 20, 2008. Issue 19 launched on Nov. 30, 2010. More than two years later. Your original scenario allows for any tools available on November 29, 2010. One of those tools, and the best tool, was to have a super-team of heavily IOed AoE death machines. One of those tools was to use Torrent from Dark Miasma and Dark Mastery. However, the latter tool was not the 'best' tool for the scenario you originally offered. Again, I'm not saying it wasn't a useful tool, or a valid strategy to use given the team you had. But you defined the parameters, and I showed how, within those parameters, you had a superior option to using Torrent or other KB.

You do realize that those AVs have a spawn of mobs around them? If you move the AV, you move the spawn.

I agree with you that the Energy Blaster hovering above the spawn mitigates the KB sufficiently. However, that contradicts your point that the melee player need move the spawn to a corner. As I pointed out and you seem to acknowledge, that is not always possible.

It would not be any evidence of ignorance on the part of the melee player not to move the spawn to a corner because none would be readily available.

I think that's because AoE immobilizes are much more limited than KB effects. Really only two ATs have AoE immobilizes as primary powers and even then not all combinations do.

Here's the scenario as you presented it Zombie Man:


I quoted your whole post so that nothing is taken out of context. You said, "On ITFs prior to Incarnates".

Here's what I said:

I read your post carefully. My response was targeted towards the scenario you posited. If you meant, "Pre-Incarnate, non-heavy IO using teams" I might have agreed with you and moved on. That's not what you said. You said pre-incarnates. In Issue 18, I had teams rolling the ITF that had no need of KB.

No change of the scenario. Exploiting the holes in the scenario you posited yes. But then, I am a jerk.

The center of the room is a nice clump. To give you an example. On a Lambda trial, are you suggesting that the tank should waste the time trying to move Marauder to one of the corners? Because if you move him too close to that open door, he might leave the courtyard and the trial fails. So it's best to fight him where he stands.

I can give you examples from nearly every TF and/or trial. Take the STF since its the WST. Where the heck do you expect the tank to move Arbiter Sands and his spawn?

On the ITF, in the final mission, many of the spawns are on bridges or otherwise not near corners. Where is the tank supposed to move them.

On the LGTF, where exactly should we be pulling Hro'Dotz to? Right by where Honoree spawns? That doesn't seem to make a lot of sense.

On the KHTF, Mary is already hard to control. Where is this mythical corner I should pull her too, and why would she stay there.

I could do this all day!

Do you people just not read whole posts?

No, KB is not the best tool, because it's not the best tool. You gave a specific scenario where you thought KB was the best tool. I showed that it would have been better to just have a stronger character. You falsely accused me of changing the scenario. I didn't. In both cases it was an ITF. In both cases we are talking about the tools characters have to meet the challenge.

Your use of KB in that instance was reasonable and sound. It was not the 'best' tool. Best means

Best is killing the mobs as close to instantaneously as possible. That's not a bias. That's simply fact. Dead mobs do 0% damage, have 0% defense, and are no longer an impediment to your goal.

Knocked mobs, by contrast, are incapacitated. That's useful, but they still retain all their health and the ability to eventually retaliate. When they are dead they don't.

Jeez, please follow the conversation chain. That was sarcasm in response to MiladysKnights use of 'ignoramus' to refer to people who don't like KB. Hell just read the whole post, where I make it clear that its sarcasm.

If the mobs are in a nice clump like that, why the heck would any ignoramus Energy blaster blow them all away. And why should the melee player be expected to waste time moving them to a wall or corner to accommodate the ignoramus KB user. In fact, what ignoramus still plays Energy Blast in 2011 when you can recolor Fire and have a good set? <--- THE PRECEDING IS SARCASM IN RESPONSE TO MILADYS KNIGHT'S USE OF THE TERM IGNORAMUSES TO REFER TO MELEE PLAYERS! PLEASE SEE RELEVANT PORTION BOLDED ABOVE IN THE POST

See other people can use unjustified insults too! <- THIS IS THE TAG SHOWING THAT I WAS NOT SERIOUS ABOVE!

The best rule I've found is to not play with people who play in a way that irritates you. The only time that bites me is when I'm leading a team because as a personal policy I will not kick people for having and using KB powers. I tend to just suffer through it, or if I'm on one of my stronger characters just do the objectives so I can end the team quickly.

This is what you said:

That, as you have acknowledged, is false.

So you're saying that teams that suck need KB?

My first post in this thread said that KB can be useful. You did not say that. You offered the premise that KB is sometimes the best tool. KB is NEVER the best tool.

The best tool is and always has been making defensively strong, AoE strong teams that can kill a spawn in seconds. I'm not saying that's how everyone should build their characters or that that style of play is the most FUN. I'm just saying that in this game, it is the best tool in the box. That doesn't mean it's the one you will always use or have available. Just that it's the best.

When a KB heavy team beats my 16 min. pre-Incarnate time on an ITF, then we'll talk about it being the best tool. The best tool is and always has been killing things quickly and efficiently. And KB is the enemy of quick and efficient kills.

Yeah, that's about it! Great Summary!

The great news is most people I find are perfectly willing to maximize efficiency and rewards. So its win-win. The few poor slobs who love KB. Well, what can you do? (other than use KB, of course)