EvilGeko
-
Posts
4227 -
Joined
-
Quote:I don't know that I've ever seen it expressed like that. Interesting argument.Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
And again, I ask: if Brutes are allowed to have essentially the same potential survivability as Tankers, why are Tankers not allowed the same damage potential as a Brute? Why the double standard? Brutes can benefit greatly from being buffed both defensively and offensively. Tankers, not as much because defensively they usually don't need it, and offensively, they get hung up on their low cap.
. -
Quote:You don't know how long I waited for MoG to get buffed do you?Originally Posted by Test_Rat
How many years are you willing to wait for the needed scrapper buffs?
-
Quote:But by the logic that people are using to oppose this, yes it's quite relevant. You're not saying that Stalkers were weaker. Just that they were weaker than their brothers. Brutes and Scrappers are very strong. Stalkers were very strong. People just wanted Stalkers to be stronger.Originally Posted by Reppu
Were Stalkers able to solo as effectively as Brutes/Scrappers(/Tankers)?
Were they able to perform as well as Brutes/Scrappers in their team role of damage, when considering their (Normal) lack of AoE and decreased survivability?
If your answer is "yes" to either one, you're lying.
Stalkers could not solo as effectively as Brutes or Scrappers due to their, generally radically, altered melee sets. CoX is a game of AoE, we can't deny that in 2012.
Additionally, even with their team-buffed 30% Crit Rate before their buff, Stalkers were not keeping up with Scrappers or Brutes. And don't pull a TwoHeadedBoy and say your KM/StJ/MA Stalker was keeping up. Those three sets do not define the AT as a whole. Oh, and those sets perform better on those AT's anyway (Sans StJ now, Stalker version could use a bit of a nerf. A small one.)
Stalkers did not perform on the same level as their brothers/sisters/whatever. Period. It's not even debatable. They had far less survivability and did less damage.
=/= Logic?
As you have admitted, Stalkers were not hurting. They just weren't as good as Scrappers or Brutes. If an AT can have no trouble solo or in groups, but still gets a very substantial buff, then there is absolutely no need for me to justify anything.
Stalkers didn't NEED a buff. The players of Stalker WANTED a buff. They got it. Good for them. It is now entirely fair for Scrapper players to ask for something since their entire inherent is substantially weaker than Stalkers. -
Quote:NECROMANCY MOST FOUL!!!Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Not as obvious as hoped or datapoints show Consume is fine with 3 minute recharge?
-
Quote:Please explain why.Originally Posted by Mad Grim
Stalkers got a buff that they sorely needed.
Were Stalkers unable to solo effectively?
Were they unable to perform their team role (Damage)? If so, why not? -
Quote:That's really cool. The thing about helping squishies is a good idea. There might be something to think about there.Originally Posted by UberGuy
Now you're on to something I might buy into. Abilities that only affect teammates.
How about this, though. Instead of something so direct as hit-chance or damage buffs, how about something for the squishies? What if every Scrapper on the team gave them something like a decent chunk of mez resistance to holds, stuns and immobilizes? Say three Scrappers on the team cut mez durations in half? Think of it as a confidence boost of some sort.
It could be set to work on non-sqiuishies too, but they would probably rarely notice it.
That would be extremely unique, would not buff Scrappers themselves, and would be pretty desirable on teams. (Outright mez protection would be more desirable by far, but I can't see the devs giving that.) -
Quote:Placate replaces Confront. And if you are saying you would rather have Confront instead of Placate....then I have to question your honesty, sanity or skills. Probably all three.Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Generally speaking, I'd much rather have whatever Placate replaced than Placate.
-
Quote:I agree with this. But then people claimed that Stalkers were irrevocably broken. I'm not even claiming that. I just want something like a unique inherent.Originally Posted by Reppu
Actually, you probably get scoffed at due to hyperbole.
But, let's face it. Titan Weapons needs some major nerfs, Clobber from Mace could deal 50% less damage and still be broken as sin (because it is).
At this point, Melee Sets either need massive nerfs (Titan Weapons NEEDS massive nerfs regardless), or Blast Sets need serious buffs (All blast sets need to be buffed to Fire Blast levels of damage AT MINIMUM, and then increased from there. Don't believe me? Fire Blast is equal to Katana, an average Melee Set. EQUAL TO THE MOST AVERAGE MELEE SET :|)
Wait, this thread was about Scrappers not feeling special anymore?
... Shut up.
Hell, I wouldn't care if they just gave Scrappers their inherent back and let Stalkers have the rest of their toys. -
Quote:I think the thing to remember about this. It's the principle that's important. While people have made any number of suggestions that they think is in jest, I think many are fine.Originally Posted by Zyphoid
I am not sure why no one likes the idea of increasing scrapper endurance max, but the suggestion just isn't taking root with anyone. :/
On that note folks, how about this. I think UberGuy and Werner and others are reasonable in wanting to keep the feel for Scrappers. That's cool. I also think that giving Scrapper's a team based boost would work better anyway since that's where their role is basically non-existent.
So how about this. Let's give them a buff that only affects teammates. Something like 20% accuracy (not to-hit) and (20%) damage for each teammate within 20 feet of the Scrapper.
The Scrapper inherent now has something no one else has, Scrappers have more use in teams, and solo performance is untouched. -
Quote:That doesn't really counter the point. Placate is a very potent ability. Just ignored here because survivability isn't much of an issue for any melee AT.Originally Posted by Hopeling
In the first game that springs to mind (it's a big one), I in fact had Placate, except it was even better because it didn't cancel when I attacked.
Moreover, talking about how strong an ability from this game would be in other games is kinda silly. People in most games would consider our unlimited 3D movement absurdly broken, but here it's nothing special. -
Quote:This is fair, and true. Personally, I'm willing to take that risk. And I'll explain why. It has become clear to me that the general power level in this game has went off the rails. I remember, as I believe you do where we were in Issue 6-8 (Before Inventions and after ED). Those were times when there were serious problems in several ATs. ED, ham-fisted that it was caused more harm than it solved and it necessitated 5 years of buffing to correct its most harmful effects.Originally Posted by UberGuy
I explained this in one of the other threads. If you're going to argue for the same campaign in a lot of threads, please don't force the people debating the other side to repeat their arguments in different threads.
There is no such thing as a change to an AT that does not change balance. It does not have to be a direct or indirect boost to damage or survivability - a change to Scrappers that introduces even a completely orthogonal ability to those they possess now cannot help but to change balance in some way, either relative to the environment, relative to other ATs, or both. If it doesn't, it wasn't really a change at all.
No one knows when a balance pass might result in change even to the AT we have now. However, the Scrapper AT has been "feature stable" for a very long time, and there is very little indication it's on anyone's radar for modification, up or down. Adding AT features changes that - it moves the AT into an area of relative uncertainty with respect to further change.
Such change, otherwise unsolicited and "just because", bears with it implicit risk through the "law" of unintended consequences. Imagine that future balance pass determines that the sum total of the Scrapper AT features we have now plus some new feature is somehow too strong. It might be determined that something about Scrappers should change to address this. But there is no guarantee that any such change would be to simply revert or modify the new addition. They might choose instead to change some other aspect of Scrappers as they exist today. That's the part of Scrappers that those of us who like Scrappers just fine would not want changed.
I, personally, do not want to even risk running afoul of such unintended consequences. Such risk is worthwhile when it buys you something you feel is important. You feel the risk is worthwhile because you feel Scrapper change is important. I do not feel Scrapper change is important, and I therefore want to avoid risk. Therefore I do not simply stay quiet while you argue for change, because I worry that meaningful change may risk something I am quite happy with.
If there wasn't such a hairline tightrope in role between various melee ATs, I might find this less of a concern, but there is.
At the same time the Inventions systems allowed players to stack power in levels that trivialized anything that even looks like solo content. So when people talk about how uber Scrappers are, they're usually looking through the prism of Inventions and now Incarnates. And that too is fair. The tools exist and they should be considered.
I am quite convinced that any combination of Scrapper does fine. But then there are multiple other ATs that do 'fine'. Brutes don't need to chase Fury. Fury simply is. Sure to hit the bleeding edge of performance you do, but then you can do a whole lot without hitting the bleeding edge of performance. Stalkers both before and after this buff needed more attention to pull out their performance. But there are great rewards for doing so.
With Scrappers for the most part, you're stuck. Except for Regen (and we agree why that set is still fun), you have very little tactical decision that you need to make as a player. Pick a solo rotation, and go forth and kill. That's cool. But Brutes and Stalkers do the same thing. And they have all these tricks on the side. Until recently, Stalkers did suffer from having significantly less AoE, but new sets don't even have that problem.
So Scrappers get to be the base AT, strong, but sterile. And that's not enough anymore. -
Quote:You're a good egg too man, and my posts are always half-serious, half-BS.Originally Posted by UberGuy
I <3 EG, but I think there's some serious BS in there.
Respectfully this is an artifact of this game being so darn easy. I can think of 5 games off the top of my head, where I know a significant portion of the playerbase would kill their own mother with a broken lawn chair for Placate.Quote:I love Placate, and keep it now even in the days of glorious new AS, and that statement is ridiculously overstating the case. Placate is good against one target. Placate is not perma even with fairly exceptional recharge.
A defensive ability that forces a NPC to stop attacking you and throws you into stealth (which sets up a number of offensive counters). That's just all sorts of stupid overpowered. But in this game, it appears weak because the general power level here is so off the charts. -
Quote:What are you talking about? Need is irrelevant.Originally Posted by Test_Rat
How many years are you willing to wait for the needed scrapper buffs?
-
Quote:So you have no substantive objection then?Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
Real Scrappers don't want or need for anything.
Real Scrappers don't want a shiny gold star, because the other kids got something shiny.
Real Scrappers are born awesome and pay no attention to unique snowflake inherent bonuses.
Real Scrappers have pride in knowing that every other AT needed some kind of shiny just to try and get a little bit closer to the awesomeness that is being a Scrapper.
If you want to be a Real Scrapper, go put your Scrapper-Lock to some better use... -
Quote:It's not an opinion. The only AT that is in any significant danger solo is Blasters. The only AT that is unable to defeat an Elite Boss with SOs (all anyone could expect solo) is....ummm none.Originally Posted by UberGuy
The bolded part is your opinion, and I feel comfortable in saying it's not an opinion that was representative of the majority for the ATs in question.
I do not believe that to be the case in this scenario.
People wanted their ATs to feel more special to them so they asked for buffs. -
Quote:Merit and Need are not the same thing. Need is irrelevant in a form of entertainment. Merit is in the eye of the beholder.Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
Pretty funny. I don't think where the crusade is coming from is as important as the anti-social nature of same in how it has played out here. That is where the suspicion came from for me, in the how it was brought up out of the blue just after the stalker changes and the acknowledged lack of need/merit etc.....
-
Quote:That would be kinda awesome.Originally Posted by Leo_G
If I were revamping Scrapper's critical hit inherent, I would add a big visual effect of a flashy spark impact explosion on the foe every time they score a critical. And when defeating a foe with a critical, it causes the target 9,001 mag KB.
-
Quote:ED bent Blasters over the table and did not nice things to them. If ED was/is necessary, the enhancement system is broken. Which it probably is.Originally Posted by Slaunyeh
But the problem with ED wasn't ED, but the rather presentation of ED, which was all Jack. ED itself was, and still is, fine and how the game should have been designed from the start.
ED is still a poorly documented mess. I was reading the Massively column recently where Elliot was trying hard to explain the system to folks. And he still managed to make a mistake. In what is probably the most casual MMORPG on the market, the enhancement system and ED in particular is a complicated mess.
/threadjack -
Quote:Great idea!Originally Posted by mauk2
I suggested a while back, that scrapper criticals should be tweaked a bit.
The simplest way would be to double the critical percentage chance, but criticals can only fire when the bad guy is above 49 percent health. The mechanism to tie an effect to a foes health already exists, so why not? This makes criticals more effective by reducing wastage damage.
A more sophisticated version makes scrapper criticals stop firing when a target's hit points fall below a certain level, say, 10 hitpoints per level. Yes, this stops crits against minions, but really, do you NEED those? To compensate, the critical chance is increased by a hefty amount, say, increased to a base 45 percent chance versus 10. (I pick that number, 45 percent, to keep the total number of criticals about the same, since all the ones that used to hit minions are now concentrated on healthy lt's and bosses. It may need to be tweaked with maths. MATHS!!)
This makes scrappers more damaging against lt's, a bit, much more damaging against bosses and higher, but a bit less effective against minions. An overall boost, but not overpowering in any way, and it for sure would be different.
Just my two cents! -
Quote:Nonsense. There is exactly ONE AT in this game that isn't currently overpowered and that's Blasters. And there are several threads going on about that already. The Scrapper AT has no unique properties, unless you count having no unique properties as a unique property.Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
I know, it's really... really sad.
Sure, the idea to make Confront a little more unique is interesting. If it was merited or even possibly needed. Scrappers get enough survivability as it is and are unique enough as it is. If a Scrapper player can't even see how a Scrapper plays differently (and in good ways) compared to Brutes and Stalkers, this conversation is doomed for a resolution.
Nothing suggested in the OP would make my Scrappers more unique than they already are (and they are unique compared to my Stalkers and Brutes), and I would much rather see dev time focused on something that is actually needed in game.
Like I said earlier, this is the 1% complaining about how the 99% might actually be evening the field by a slight bit. It's silly to even be having this conversation, but I suspect it's lasted this long due to the gawker status merited from watching people that want to have their cake and eat it too. The only thing that could make this worse is if we were rickrolled and linked to Jersey Shore reruns at the same time. *shudders*
What would a Jersey Shore version of a rickroll be, anyway? A Snookibomb? *shudders again*
Defenders got an inherent originally simply to give them an inherent. It was buffed for QOL reasons to give the preeminent group AT a little help solo. So yes, I think it's quite warranted for Scrapper to get a QOL change here. Both to give the AT something unique and now that I think of it, to give them a little help in teams.
This isn't going away. It became inevitable once players of other ATs which needed no help decided they were going to go for it all. Well, they got it. Now my Scrappers, some of whom predated the ATs in question want some of their uniqueness back. -
Quote:I'm getting to the point where I think they should merge Tankers and Brutes and Scrappers and Stalkers. Actually I was at that point a few years ago, but I'm thinking that it makes sense now!Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Stalkers just got a buff that increased their HP cap and moved their survivability closer to that of Scrappers because some of their powersets hit the HP cap way too easily. They got better crits and damage outside of Hidden, again, like Scrappers. And pretty much everyone thinks they're great now.
Stalkers previously suffered for being too far out on the extreme end of the melee spectrum and being overspecialized for front loaded damage. Tankers, are at the opposite extreme end of that same spectrum and IMO, suffer from being overspecialized in aggro control and, on some of their powersets, hit the damage cap way too easily.
I can see parallels there.
In other words, it worked for Stalkers.
.
-
Quote:Stalker EA also gets Disrupt. Which really does make it more survivable than Scrapper EA. Whether people take it is up to them.Originally Posted by Hopeling
The Stalker passive gives less total energy resist than the two passives for brutes/scrappers, and no endurance drain resist. On the other hand, Stalker /EA gets the defense bonus from Energy Cloak rolled into the shields, then gets defense from Hide on top of it, giving more total defense for less slots and less endurance, so it's easier to softcap, which is either a survivability bonus or a build flexibility bonus depending on perspective. Does that make up for the decreased HP (which widens in absolute quantity, but stays the same proportionally, at any level and for any amount of accolades/set bonuses, other than Stalkers reaching their hp cap slightly sooner) and lesser ability to wipe out a spawn quickly? Opinions vary, but IMO no.
-
Quote:Unfortunately, I'm kinda with Johnny on this one too, the TPN is rather silly.Originally Posted by Zyphoid
This is painful, but I kinda agree. They should have had tanks, or something HUGE hitting us outside of the TPN, not a human mob with rocks.
-
Quote:Not really. It's a defensive cooldown to borrow a WoW term. And a darn good one. It can be used to gain breathing space to pop a heal, regen, escape, etc.Originally Posted by Hopeling
Placate has an effect on survivability, obviously. It just has LESS of an effect than, y'know, actually being tougher.
I use it very similarly to MoG. If I'm fighting something that's really strong and the damage is getting to be too much, pop Placate and you have some free 100% mitigation. It's only in this game where people turn their noses up at Regeneration because you have to push a button once in awhile that people can't see how to use Placate to save their butts.
And folks act like the difference in survivability between Scrappers and Stalkers is the same as between Brutes and Scrappers. It is not. It is significantly less even taking Hide and Placate out of the picture. Scrappers and Stalkers share defensive and resistance modifiers and caps. The only difference is 138 Health at level 50 base and about 400 cap IIRC. With Brutes v. Scrappers the base difference is 161 health base at 50 and about 800 Health capped. AND Brutes have higher resistance caps, which several sets (e.g. Fire, Electric) can leverage. -
Quote:By the way, I'm old. What is a 4 chan attack?Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
QFT despite the current 4 chan attack.